DOH merge.
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Re: DOH merge.
BOTL will never happen. I think everyone knows that. If you're hoping for it, your setting yourself up to be disappointed. Just like the junior TS 330CA thinking he's going to join as a 777CA... you're going to be disappointed.
There will be some give and take. Everyone needs to get that in their heads on both sides.
I think TS will slot in on a formula based off a hybrid of DOH/ratio/status and with pay and career expectation adjustment, ACPA pilots will get some adjusted credit for the high seniority level of the group and advancement expectations, but TS guys will do slightly better on average in ratio/status, certainly on pay, they'll all get raises... there will probably fences to prevent TS bidding the 787/777 CA for X number of years. We may see that the full integration takes a period of time, even a couple years, depending on where AC puts fins and merges the flying and the agreement they come to with ACPA. Plus potential training requirements.
But in the end the most senior TS guys will be able to hold 330 YUL and get $100/hour raises or so, even Gilles here with 20.5 years seniority at 16%...will slot in with guys with closer to 30 years seniority on the 330 at AC that are around 20%. More junior TS captain's will still be able to hold 320 in a base of their choosing, and will take a slight raise. Most of the FOs will hold pretty much any FO seat or even a junior narrow body Captain seat... and everyone from TS will get better benefits, and a pension...
And in the end we will get along and better get our shit together to get a new contract sorted out and get everyone a big raise together - blue and red - before the economy tanks.
There will be some give and take. Everyone needs to get that in their heads on both sides.
I think TS will slot in on a formula based off a hybrid of DOH/ratio/status and with pay and career expectation adjustment, ACPA pilots will get some adjusted credit for the high seniority level of the group and advancement expectations, but TS guys will do slightly better on average in ratio/status, certainly on pay, they'll all get raises... there will probably fences to prevent TS bidding the 787/777 CA for X number of years. We may see that the full integration takes a period of time, even a couple years, depending on where AC puts fins and merges the flying and the agreement they come to with ACPA. Plus potential training requirements.
But in the end the most senior TS guys will be able to hold 330 YUL and get $100/hour raises or so, even Gilles here with 20.5 years seniority at 16%...will slot in with guys with closer to 30 years seniority on the 330 at AC that are around 20%. More junior TS captain's will still be able to hold 320 in a base of their choosing, and will take a slight raise. Most of the FOs will hold pretty much any FO seat or even a junior narrow body Captain seat... and everyone from TS will get better benefits, and a pension...
And in the end we will get along and better get our shit together to get a new contract sorted out and get everyone a big raise together - blue and red - before the economy tanks.
Re: DOH merge.
Or maybe AC won't touch anything and let Air Transat like it is and reduce Rouge fleet and give the flight to AT.
When people are getting retired from AT they won't replace them and increase Rouge fleet.
If there is too much pilots in AT they will ask for volunteer to flow to AC
So everyone would be happy and there is no question about BOTL or merge...
When people are getting retired from AT they won't replace them and increase Rouge fleet.
If there is too much pilots in AT they will ask for volunteer to flow to AC
So everyone would be happy and there is no question about BOTL or merge...
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Re: DOH merge.
Babar350,
That can’t happen due to the first article of the contact with ACPA. Simply put, ALL flying that AC controls above scope limits( seats/fin count) has to be crewed by ACPA pilots. They cannot run Transat as is, outside of ACPA.
Cheers
That can’t happen due to the first article of the contact with ACPA. Simply put, ALL flying that AC controls above scope limits( seats/fin count) has to be crewed by ACPA pilots. They cannot run Transat as is, outside of ACPA.
Cheers
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Re: DOH merge.
tailgunner wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:08 pm Babar350,
That can’t happen due to the first article of the contact with ACPA. Simply put, ALL flying that AC controls above scope limits( seats/fin count) has to be crewed by ACPA pilots. They cannot run Transat as is, outside of ACPA.
Cheers
Correct, however this concept seems lost on some. It's been pointed out and repeated many times.
It seems we're wasting our time pointing out that there will be ONE list.
With regard to pilot seniority, there will be no sub-contracting, no merging with only Rouge pilots, no running Transat as a separate entity.
It couldn't be clearer.
Those in doubt should refer to Altiplano's post above.....seems it was covered best there.
DP.
Re: DOH merge.
I'm going back this prediction as well. This is what Calin likely wants and there is a lot of ways he can get it. Trading some trivial gains to the AC pilot's contract, or instilling fear of what will happen with a merged list, all the way up to lockout threats, government intervention, etc.Babar350 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:43 am Or maybe AC won't touch anything and let Air Transat like it is and reduce Rouge fleet and give the flight to AT.
When people are getting retired from AT they won't replace them and increase Rouge fleet.
If there is too much pilots in AT they will ask for volunteer to flow to AC
So everyone would be happy and there is no question about BOTL or merge...
Most likely a combination of all of the above.
Re: DOH merge.
There's no way AC Pilots give on scope for a seperate C scale. All the most productive flying would just go there, that's what happened when we got a B scale.
There is no way AC Pilots will allow any LCC expansion beyond the contract either. Like putting the 330s at rouge.
I could see a deal bringing the LCC767s back to mainline and running a 330/320 mixed LCC fleet within the existing ratios. I could even see them negotiating to do that as 1 LCC pilot group flying both types and ACPA getting some gains to allow it.
I'd want LOU74 eliminated, plus 5 hour/calendar day DBM, to give 320/330 dual checked pilots for the LCC flying at a blended rate... That would be a huge savings for the corp even at mainline wawcon. Not to mention the flexibility they would gain. Meanwhile pilots would get rid of B-scale and most would get a better schedule.
Leverage will exist in this deal somewhere, hopefully we don't piss it away.
There is no way AC Pilots will allow any LCC expansion beyond the contract either. Like putting the 330s at rouge.
I could see a deal bringing the LCC767s back to mainline and running a 330/320 mixed LCC fleet within the existing ratios. I could even see them negotiating to do that as 1 LCC pilot group flying both types and ACPA getting some gains to allow it.
I'd want LOU74 eliminated, plus 5 hour/calendar day DBM, to give 320/330 dual checked pilots for the LCC flying at a blended rate... That would be a huge savings for the corp even at mainline wawcon. Not to mention the flexibility they would gain. Meanwhile pilots would get rid of B-scale and most would get a better schedule.
Leverage will exist in this deal somewhere, hopefully we don't piss it away.
Re: DOH merge.
altiplano wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:35 pm There's no way AC Pilots give on scope for a seperate C scale. All the most productive flying would just go there, that's what happened when we got a B scale.
There is no way AC Pilots will allow any LCC expansion beyond the contract either. Like putting the 330s at rouge.
I could see a deal bringing the LCC767s back to mainline and running a 330/320 mixed LCC fleet within the existing ratios. I could even see them negotiating to do that as 1 LCC pilot group flying both types and ACPA getting some gains to allow it.
I'd want LOU74 eliminated, plus 5 hour/calendar day DBM, to give 320/330 dual checked pilots for the LCC flying at a blended rate... That would be a huge savings for the corp even at mainline wawcon. Not to mention the flexibility they would gain. Meanwhile pilots would get rid of B-scale and most would get a better schedule.
Leverage will exist in this deal somewhere, hopefully we don't piss it away.
If they moved the 767's back to mainline the corp wouldn't need to cut a deal to have Transat's 330's at the LCC. It could be done under the existing agreement.
Therefore no bargaining leverage exists under your proposal. Not saying your wrong in that you might have nailed the outcome. Just saying negotiation is not needed.
Re: DOH merge.
I hope u guys are not negotiating for Ac because we are going to be screwed big time !!!!
Transat guys should lose at least a couple of years like the Canadian pilots lost. (2 years)
Transat guys should lose at least a couple of years like the Canadian pilots lost. (2 years)
Re: DOH merge.
Not true. Perhaps you don't follow me. Notice it was an idea, and then an expansion on the idea...Fanblade wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:51 pmaltiplano wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:35 pm There's no way AC Pilots give on scope for a seperate C scale. All the most productive flying would just go there, that's what happened when we got a B scale.
There is no way AC Pilots will allow any LCC expansion beyond the contract either. Like putting the 330s at rouge.
I could see a deal bringing the LCC767s back to mainline and running a 330/320 mixed LCC fleet within the existing ratios. I could even see them negotiating to do that as 1 LCC pilot group flying both types and ACPA getting some gains to allow it.
I'd want LOU74 eliminated, plus 5 hour/calendar day DBM, to give 320/330 dual checked pilots for the LCC flying at a blended rate... That would be a huge savings for the corp even at mainline wawcon. Not to mention the flexibility they would gain. Meanwhile pilots would get rid of B-scale and most would get a better schedule.
Leverage will exist in this deal somewhere, hopefully we don't piss it away.
If they moved the 767's back to mainline the corp wouldn't need to cut a deal to have Transat's 330's at the LCC. It could be done under the existing agreement.
Therefore no bargaining leverage exists under your proposal. Not saying your wrong in that you might have nailed the outcome. Just saying negotiation is not needed.
I agree, if they want to move the 767s back and run 330s at the LCC, they can do that following provisions in our contract. But to really make it efficient with a 320/330 dual qualified pilot group, it would require an amendment to our contract.
In our contract, only under 11.05.01, NRFOPs may be simultaneously qualified on 320/330. Line pilots may not.
There is always something they will want. ALWAYS. There is always leverage. Just like there was leverage in the 737 grounding, but we gave it away to get a below minimum pay rate? Time we walk in slowly, be less than accommodating, and hold our cards until the other side shows there's... there will be leverage in this, let's not lose our heads.
Re: DOH merge.
Agreed.
Just wanted to acknowledge that AC has all the tools they need to do the basics without talking to us at all.
Just wanted to acknowledge that AC has all the tools they need to do the basics without talking to us at all.
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Re: DOH merge.
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Last edited by Just another canuck on Sat Feb 19, 2022 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
Re: DOH merge.
100% agree. No truer words have been spoken.
I spent twenty years in another business negotiating large dollar value contracts before coming to aviation full time. If I have learned one thing, and as simplistic as it sounds, the best deal is the one where each side walks away a little unhappy with the outcome.
Remember if there is a clear cut “winner” it will come to the detriment of the other side ( the de facto losers) which will give rise to lingering hard feelings going forward.
When it is all said and done we will have to live with one another and share the same flight decks going forward.
DQ - Dual Qualified. This program is already over, but a large chunk of us flew the 737 during the winter season, and widebody Airbus during the Summer season. Just a matter of doing an extra sim at PPC renewal time.
CCQ - Cross Qualification. The shortened training required to swap from A330 to A321 and vice versa. 4 sims then a PPC.
MFF - Multi Fleet Flying. Fly an A330 to Paris, layover, and fly an A321 Neo-LR back to YUL. WIth a host of restrictions like takeoffs and landings in each type in a defined window etc etc.
CCQ - Cross Qualification. The shortened training required to swap from A330 to A321 and vice versa. 4 sims then a PPC.
MFF - Multi Fleet Flying. Fly an A330 to Paris, layover, and fly an A321 Neo-LR back to YUL. WIth a host of restrictions like takeoffs and landings in each type in a defined window etc etc.
- Daniel Cooper
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Re: DOH merge.
The shareholder vote will be held on August 23rd.Daniel Cooper wrote: ↑Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:22 amIs there a date set yet? That makes it hard to plan for the big upcoming equipment bid at AC. For the company and the pilots. I don't know if it's better to assume it's going to pass or not. Everyone seems so sure it will despite major shareholders being against it and the other higher offer.
Re: DOH merge.
Some Air Canada pilots advocating for Bottom of the list?.....the green light of greed always comes out in the end!!
Re: DOH merge.
Media reports today are saying Transat top brass are making out pretty well in the deal..
To the tune of $35 million in position replacement payouts, buyouts, and stock... no wonder they liked the AC deal better than the Group Mach offer!
With 2 largest shareholders already against the deal @31%, they may be fighting to pass the shareholder vote.
To the tune of $35 million in position replacement payouts, buyouts, and stock... no wonder they liked the AC deal better than the Group Mach offer!
With 2 largest shareholders already against the deal @31%, they may be fighting to pass the shareholder vote.
Re: DOH merge.
And some TS guys are advocating for top of the list. There are always some extreme positions on both sides.
Anyway, I think it's self preservation above greed...