Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

[digits_]

I have a similar experience as FOD vacuum. I work for a company that prefers to hire 1500 hourish pilots for a 1900 FO position. And let me tell you, some of these FOs that have this amount of time (usually all instructing) STILL need to be babied with every aspect of their flying.

The 1500 hour requirement is causing this problem, not solving it.

Who in his right mind with 1500 hours and -presumably- an ATPL would accept an FO job on a 1900? You can be a direct entry captain on a similar plane at a variety of operators with this time in this economy!

So who is applying? The people that can't find such jobs, are terribly insecure about their abilities or for whatever reason want to work at your company/base for personal reasons. The first 2 groups will behave in the manner you described.

Now, if you lower the hiring minima to 200 hours, yes, you will have FOs that are fresh out of school and can't fly properly, but you will have a bunch of people still sharp on the regulations and theoretical aspects about flying, who will be a big help with CRFI and alternate requirements etc. Limiting yourself to 1500+ hours for a 1900 FO position practically guarantees they will leave almonst right away or won't cut it. It is highly unlikely you will find any good long term pilots in that pool at the moment. Unless you pay 75k+ for said position, but I highly doubt that...

[a313]

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[iflyforpie]

Are you looking at the Sunwest ad in YYC? Because that’s pretty much the only one I see that fits the bill of 1500 hours (not 2500) single pilot machine, and minimum wage (not sure what they pay but it probably isn’t much).

Carson is 750 for the Metro, CMA is 1000 for a 1900, Bearskin is 750, Perimeter is 500, EVAS is 750, etc etc. You’re actually over qualified for today’s winner.. North Wright aviation at 200TT.

So no... I don’t see a disconnect at all. For those of us who lived through the Bad Old Days, you needed 1000 hours to go to the middle of BFN and slog a Navajo or Metro or King Air around from the right seat... or those who were really really lucky threw bags for a year or two and then got on a 1900 at 250TT.

I see someone who’s mind is already at Air Canada when your body should be in a Cessna 206 building up another 500 hours of PIC and gaining experience that will be valuable when the SOPs draw a blank and there’s a 1000 hour wonder sitting beside you, and then hitting the road rather than waiting for a job to come to you.

You are missing his point. In your example carson, evas and bearskin require 750 tt. At 1000 tt pilots can get picked up by regional airlines. So pilots join the 704 operator, sign a bond if required and leave after 4 months when the regional calls.
The 704 operator then scratches is head why people leave so quickly and have to pay for training for the next guy. Why do they not hire 200tt pilots? I asked one of them: to save on training costs. That doesn't make sense. Spending twice the money on a 200tt pilot who sticks around 4 times as long will save the 704 compamy money.

So yeah, there definitely is a disconnect.

The disconnect is in that career progression, not the operator requirements.

Why would you go from a place that’s going to give you a quick upgrade and making some ok money back to the bottom? Because of a big shiny 705 plane? Because it (almost) has the house colours on it? Because your base will be so much closer and affordable? We’ve seen that PML and seniority have been bait and switch and moving targets at both Red and Teal.

So why not get an ATPL and some command time and go straight to mainline after a few years rather than wasting time with regionals?

[digits_]

No it isn't. The 704 operator is the one that suffers most in the current situation. It would be logical -and soon an economical requirement- that they adapt. They can't change the (illogical?) career desires from their pilots but they can control how long pilots stay by adjusting their hour requirements and/or salary to match the current economic reality.

If you know they leave at 1000 hours, don't hire them with 999 hours.

[shimmydampner]

Now, if you lower the hiring minima to 200 hours, yes, you will have FOs that are fresh out of school and can't fly properly, but you will have a bunch of people still sharp on the regulations and theoretical aspects about flying

There's a great sales pitch to the traveling public, not to mention the insurance companies; "Our pilots can't fly properly, but they read about it in a book!"

And to very blunt the previous generation have created the pilot shortage themselves by allowing the poor pay and working conditions to continue

That's right kids, this horrible situation you've found yourself in where jobs have never been easier to get is all somebody else's fault! So show the previous generation that you're not settling for the same poor pay that they did, and rush to get that sweet $37k/yr job at the regional airline of your choice!
Also, your mom called, she said to be home by 9.

[goingnowherefast]

Through most of the 2000s until about 2013, pilots were making 20-25 grand a year to fly a Navajo or clapped out metro in BFN with no days off. Pushed into illegal situations by abusive companies. Even AC was laying off pilots, dealing with strikes...fun times. OR you could go into the trades and make $25/hr to start as an electrical/plumbing/carpentey/mechanic/wielder/masonry/etc apprentice.

Now nobody wants to be a pilot, and I can't say I blame them. Even the "good" jobs today are in a hotel room 9 days a month working for 37 grand a year at Regional Airlines

IFR students should spend a few lessons in ACTUAL imc. Go flying when it's 500' and actually see what it's like. Be better than their first ILS to minimums is scaring the shit out of the captain with 19 passengers in the back and not enough gas for a 2nd approach if they screw it up.

[digits_]

Now, if you lower the hiring minima to 200 hours, yes, you will have FOs that are fresh out of school and can't fly properly, but you will have a bunch of people still sharp on the regulations and theoretical aspects about flying

There's a great sales pitch to the traveling public, not to mention the insurance companies; "Our pilots can't fly properly, but they read about it in a book!"

If the alternative is getting 1500 hour wash outs that cam't do neither, then yes, the 200 hour pilot that is still sharp from flight school but a bit rough on handling the plane is the better choice.

You have to compare it to the available pilot pool on the market. Sure, 5000 hour pilots with 1000 hours on type would make great 704 fos, but these people aren't even interested in a 704 captain spot anymore!

[shimmydampner]

Just so I'm clear on this digits, the solution you're advocating for is to lower our standards to such a point that we are putting verifiably terrible pilots into the right seat of high performance airplanes full of paying passengers, next to bare minimum ATPL, very inexperienced captains. This sounds good to you? Have you ever had to train and sign off one of these pilots? I'm going to guess no, because you may feel differently about it when you have to sign your name attesting to their proficiency. You think this sounds like a better solution than say, oh I don't know, companies improving their compensation packages and schedules to attract and retain pilots?

[shawnthesheep]

I've heard from multiple people at Encore who are saying that they will drop there requirements below 1000 at which point the 703/704 will need to drop there requirements...


So why not just do it now and get guys for a year at least so they don't jump ship after 6 months..

[shawnthesheep]

Just so I'm clear on this digits, the solution you're advocating for is to lower our standards to such a point that we are putting verifiably terrible pilots into the right seat of high performance airplanes full of paying passengers, next to bare minimum ATPL, very inexperienced captains. This sounds good to you? Have you ever had to train and sign off one of these pilots? I'm going to guess no, because you may feel differently about it when you have to sign your name attesting to their proficiency. You think this sounds like a better solution than say, oh I don't know, companies improving their compensation packages and schedules to attract and retain pilots?

I think this has been said before,

There are many countries across the pond that are offering cadetships and training pilots to the bare minimum 200 hours then straight to a 737/A320 family.

[digits_]

Just so I'm clear on this digits, the solution you're advocating for is to lower our standards to such a point that we are putting verifiably terrible pilots into the right seat of high performance airplanes full of paying passengers, next to bare minimum ATPL, very inexperienced captains. This sounds good to you?

What are you talking about?

I'm saying that you are missing out on a big group of great pilots by sticking to your 1500 hour minimum. To put some random nrs on it to illustrate my point. I think that in your 1500 hr + pilots that apply for your FO position, about 75% would perform sub par. If you lower your requirements to 200 hours and due some testing and invest in a little bit of extra training, more than half would perform good to great. They would also stick around for much longer, so the amount of training and line indoc training captains would do, would be much less, which would make them happier as well.

Have you ever had to train and sign off one of these pilots? I'm going to guess no, because you may feel differently about it when you have to sign your name attesting to their proficiency.

Here's a thought: don't sign off the 1500 hour FO that doesn't perform adequately and then go on avcanada complaining about his performance. He either cuts it, or he doesn't. The experience level should be irrelevant, only the performance during training/ppc ride/linde indoc should matter.

I postulate that the fresh 200 hour pilot will perform better, on average, than a 1500 hour pilot applying for a 1900 fo position.

You think this sounds like a better solution than say, oh I don't know, companies improving their compensation packages and schedules to attract and retain pilots?

No, but this discussion has been about experience levels, not pay. Sure, pay every pilot 100k + and attract more experienced pilots. That doesn't seem to happen (yet). My solution would not cost a company extra money. The extra training costs could probably be absorbed within the same fiscal year by not having to train as many pilots. And the general quality of pilots at your company would go up as well.

[shimmydampner]

To put some random nrs on it to illustrate my point. I think that in your 1500 hr + pilots that apply for your FO position, about 75% would perform sub par. If you lower your requirements to 200 hours and due some testing and invest in a little bit of extra training, more than half would perform good to great.
I postulate that the fresh 200 hour pilot will perform better, on average, than a 1500 hour pilot applying for a 1900 fo position.

I get it now. You have no idea what you're talking about. Postulate all you want, but I've seen the difference many times in training.

[iflyforpie]

200 hours is better than 1500 hours?

I don’t think so. Not even with more screening and training. The 200 hour wonder is along for the ride, and the captain is going to be doing the equivalent of line indoc for a year as he both flies the plane and tries to keep the FO from killing everyone on board.

Sure in Europe... flying big jets ILS to ILS with the autopilot on under the supervision of a much more experienced captain a 200 hour wonder will be ok. Or the dumbed down version of 705 regional ops in Canada where they are de icing on sunny days and forbid circling approaches going to the “boonies” like North Bay and Terrace.

But none will do better than a 1500 hour pilot or even a 750 hour pilot with some real world decision making experience. I was talking to a former CX pilot about their cadet program and when presented with a scenario where the captain became incapacitated, these cadets didn’t know what to do. It wasn’t a matter of knowing the aircraft and the procedures or being able to fly the plane... it was that they literally didn’t know how to make a decision without asking mom... er.. the captain first.

There’s a reason why PIC is King, and even if you were just FO in a shitty operation going to a less shitty one you probably saw and learned a few things or even intervened when your captain was making a bad decision.

So might it be that these smaller operators are stuck, unable to attract the experience they require with the wages they can offer? Perhaps. But I don’t think that sticking 250 hour wonders into the right seat of a 1900 is as cheap as you think it will be. Higher risk, inefficiency, and in this market too... the risk of becoming a bottom-heavy company who can’t flow anyone to replace the captains that are leaving.

[a313]

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[digits_]

200 hours is better than 1500 hours?

That's not what I said.

A fresh 200 hour pilot straight from flying school could fairly easily be trained to be better than a 1500 hour pilot who accepts a 1900 FO position in this economy.

[ehv8oar]

I see what you're getting at, that someone with 200 hours and just out of flight school is going to probably be more up-to-date on the rules and regs and more keen to learn than someone with 1500 hours of bush flying.

In some ways you're right but think back to what you were like at 200 hours, now think about what you were like at 1500 hours, I'm sure you'll agree that you were a better overall Pilot at 1500 hours than 200 hours.

You also can't make sweeping statements about, someone with 1500 hours who would take a 1900 fo position in this economy, as though this makes that person a moron who's unfit to fly. People make decisions based on things like location, close to family etc not just on size of an aircraft.

[shimmydampner]

So what are 250 hour wonder pilots supposed to do? The only real option is to instruct
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The only other option is, ramp
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So I ask, how are the 703/704 operators supposed to attract 750,1000, 1500 hour guys when there is this "shortage" and most are going to the regionals anyways

You are conflating the two problems. They are separate issues. And there are more options than instructing or ramp. There are plenty of 703 bush jobs available these days and it's a fantastic way to not only build PIC time, but also aircraft handling skill and decision making skills. You know, the really, really important piloting skills that are difficult to teach and take time to learn? I'm sorry, but the right seat of 705 airplanes is not the place for 250 hour kids to be figuring out how to fly, particularly when there are 70 lives in the back. It's not fair to the paying public who are unaware that the person in the right seat is, at that point, more of a hindrance than a help to the captain. As for the problem of companies finding pilots, it's cheaper to pay a bit more for someone with a modicum of experience than it is to gamble thousands of training dollars on a totally green pilot who may very well fail their training, which is the reality of what's happening now. The failure rate in 705 training seems like it's pretty high these days, both in my experience, and talking to others, and it seems to be due to a lack of experience. I've observed that candidates with more experience invariably do much better than those with none.

[a313]

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[ehv8oar]

Simple fact is that some of these operators might have to go bust, if they cant get the experience they require they're better closing the doors than putting someone with no experience in a dangerous position.

[Warden]

So what are 250 hour wonder pilots supposed to do? The only real option is to instruct
...
The only other option is, ramp
...
So I ask, how are the 703/704 operators supposed to attract 750,1000, 1500 hour guys when there is this "shortage" and most are going to the regionals anyways

You are conflating the two problems. They are separate issues. And there are more options than instructing or ramp. There are plenty of 703 bush jobs available these days and it's a fantastic way to not only build PIC time, but also aircraft handling skill and decision making skills. You know, the really, really important piloting skills that are difficult to teach and take time to learn? I'm sorry, but the right seat of 705 airplanes is not the place for 250 hour kids to be figuring out how to fly, particularly when there are 70 lives in the back. It's not fair to the paying public who are unaware that the person in the right seat is, at that point, more of a hindrance than a help to the captain. As for the problem of companies finding pilots, it's cheaper to pay a bit more for someone with a modicum of experience than it is to gamble thousands of training dollars on a totally green pilot who may very well fail their training, which is the reality of what's happening now. The failure rate in 705 training seems like it's pretty high these days, both in my experience, and talking to others, and it seems to be due to a lack of experience. I've observed that candidates with more experience invariably do much better than those with none.

It's also not fair to all the Captains at those companies who are basically doing extended line indoc and training these pilots how to operate (not fly per-say, most can do that well enough with a bit of coaching). I was basically an unpaid line indoc Captain the last few years at Jazz.