CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

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A-Team
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CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by A-Team »

Does anyone have a copy of the CBAA 2019 Comp Survey? We're expected to do our own market research and negotiate our own salaries.
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whatsitdoingnow
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by whatsitdoingnow »

Would be great to see them too. They must be out soon right?
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TSAM
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by TSAM »

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Last edited by TSAM on Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

A-Team
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by A-Team »

Thank you for the Pro Pilot information however that is from the US market and my work dismisses it because it's not representative of the Canadian market. I was wondering about the one from CBAA/Wynford that was released at the July YYC convention.
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whatsitdoingnow
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by whatsitdoingnow »

It should be representative. We fly the same planes in the same airspace. The only difference is we are allowed to fly considerably longer days and for the most part, we have higher living/ housing costs. The only reason it isn’t, is because a few large management companies seem to be suppressing wages thinking they are doing the aircraft owners a favour.
Yes I know supply and demand drive it too, but the work around seems to be just lowering the bar to compensate.
Maybe it’s easier to pursued a client to take a 500 hour wonder than pay for an experienced crew.
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Jet Jockey
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by Jet Jockey »

whatsitdoingnow wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:06 am
It should be representative. We fly the same planes in the same airspace. The only difference is we are allowed to fly considerably longer days and for the most part, we have higher living/ housing costs. The only reason it isn’t, is because a few large management companies seem to be suppressing wages thinking they are doing the aircraft owners a favour.
Yes I know supply and demand drive it too, but the work around seems to be just lowering the bar to compensate.
Maybe it’s easier to pursued a client to take a 500 hour wonder than pay for an experienced crew.
Not so sure about any of the statements above.
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

A-Team wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:14 am
Thank you for the Pro Pilot information however that is from the US market and my work dismisses it because it's not representative of the Canadian market. I was wondering about the one from CBAA/Wynford that was released at the July YYC convention.
I haven't got my hands on it yet, but the CBAA apparently says in summary that "the results of the survey show that salaries for management positions in business aviation are 12.7 percent higher than for airlines and 3.7 percent more than those positions in aircraft maintenance and manufacturing. For maintenance positions, the salary differential is 16.7 percent above those in the airlines, and 17 percent higher than similar positions in maintenance and manufacturing.

Among flight crews, the average salary differential is 4 percent greater than at airlines, and 4.9 percent higher than flight crews working for aviation maintenance companies and manufacturers. “While we are a niche within the aviation sector, we are a lucrative one,”

I like his optimism but there is a long way to go.

Again as I keep mentioning in the airline forums, it's starts with the 'king' of jobs at the only legacy carrier in Canada, who aren't providing any upward support to wages and don't pay pilots for their experience, only their loyalty and time.



Hopefully somebody out there has an updated set of numbers to compare. The funny thing is your employer likely has a copy, and instead of giving you an honest go of it, they want to put you behind the 8-ball to negotiate.

Good luck, at most management companies, I'm seeing a reluctance to pay more than 120-140k in the left on mid-large jets unless you have extensive former experience or current on type. Right seat you can expect between 80-95k on the same equipment. Long range heavy equipment is harder to pin down.

It gets more varied when you factor in 3 crew.

Has your employer given you an offer already?

S.
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by W5 »

Article in "Skies"

https://www.skiesmag.com/news/cbaa-comp ... asures-up/

CBAA compensation study: how bizav measures up
Posted on September 12, 2019 by Ken Pole
Results of a new Canadian Business Aviation Association compensation survey suggest that flight crews and other personnel in the sector can be better off, financially and otherwise, than their counterparts at scheduled service and charter operators.

“Pay is but one of the critical elements when you’re looking at recruitment and retention strategies,” said CBAA president and chief executive officer Anthony Norejko after the survey garnered responses from 53 organizations — including a who’s-who of Canadian companies. It had been distributed to the CBAA’s 443 members and also made available for a fee to non-members.

“When comparing business aviation against, say, the airlines – which is sort of the elephant in the room – what was great to see is that, on balance, business aviation pays better and offers comparable benefits,” he told Skies. “If anything, that’s the thing that I would point to – now and going forward.”

The latest survey was managed by Wynford Group, a Calgary-based human resources consultancy. The response was 18 per cent higher than the first one, in 2017, and the CBAA plans to keep doing them biennially, possibly publishing less-detailed updates in the intervening years.

“The industry has changed in the past couple of years,” said Norejko. “The survey allows operators a better sense of what has happened since then. We’re definitely encouraged.”

He noted that business aviation is unique in the way employees can “really be part of the team.” For pilots, it means not being able to “only say ‘hi’ when you’ve landed and unlocked the cockpit door.” In contrast, being close to clients was “an opportunity to be recognized for your work.”

However, when it comes to monetary recognition, the survey compares, among other things, total cash compensation for just about every position possible. Directors of flight operations and maintenance in the business aviation sector averaged more than their counterparts in the commercial scheduled and charter world.

On the flight deck, some averages for captains and first officers were lower in business aviation than at scheduled or charter operations, but most were higher and it evidently depended on, among other things, the size of the aircraft.

Norejko pointed out that many pilots in business aviation are not employed as ‘pilots’ as such, but more often are part of “senior management”. Among other things, that kind of structure can come with stock options, bonuses and deferred profit sharing. All can reward pilots handsomely as a company flourishes – “a rising tide floats all the boats,” chuckled Norejko.

The money and potential extras may be nicer in business aviation, but what about job security? “That depends,” he replied. “Sure, there could be a recession and business aviation could be impacted, but business aviation is used in three ways: you’re either in growth mode, pursuing new opportunities, or you’ve got an established business and brand, or you may be in a retraction phase.”


The latter requires a lot of corporate energy to preferably reverse that retraction and Norejko said a company’s flight department can be a powerful lever. Business aviation was fundamentally a better tool than airlines for getting people “out and across the country” efficiently as part of any push for recovery.

He down played a suggestion that difficult clients can be detrimental to the work environment, saying only that while there may be “outliers” who are problematic, the overwhelming majority are all too aware that their pilots are the only ones who can ground their aircraft due to weather or other issues.

“It’s a fairly unique position to have. It starts on the flight deck, how your pilots provide their service, how embedded your department is.” That can go as far as making recommendations on new aircraft and even managing the acquisition. “There are some unique elements that business aviation offers.”

As for the survey itself, Wynford Group’s analysis of no fewer than 63 jobs also includes data on recruitment, turnover and retention.

“Anyone in our sector who wants to create an effective recruitment and retention strategy will find the data invaluable,” said Norejko, urging companies and their employees “to do a deep dive into the data and rank how you compare.”

While he had no hesitation in saying that business aviation compares very well indeed, he did stress that as important as the compensation survey can be, attention to cultural fit and career progression and opportunity are also important.
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by hawker driver »

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whatsitdoingnow
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by whatsitdoingnow »

So anyone have a copy?
Or could PM me the 20k to 40k mid size captain pay ranges? I also have a pay review coming up.

Thanks
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

whatsitdoingnow wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:32 pm
So anyone have a copy?
Or could PM me the 20k to 40k mid size captain pay ranges? I also have a pay review coming up.

Thanks
viewtopic.php?f=105&t=123986

Just in case you didn't see this and no one gets back to you. Between 115-125k + 6% CPI for 2 years since numbers were produced in 2017. That keeps you above 50% of the market. 20K-40K weight is a big range and could have you from an Excel to a Challenger 350. Very different missions and experience requirements.

Good luck,

S.
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tired of the ground
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by tired of the ground »

I would also be interested in seeing the 2019 numbers. I will say that the numbers have increased closer to 20% since the 2017 survey came out.
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

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tired of the ground wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:02 am
I would also be interested in seeing the 2019 numbers. I will say that the numbers have increased closer to 20% since the 2017 survey came out.
Really? :-P I really want to see numbers that back that statement up.

S.
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whatsitdoingnow
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by whatsitdoingnow »

Thanks schnitzel2k3.

I figured I’d have to age the numbers.

I’m not sure about the 20% claim above but I would imagine it’s above CPI. Maybe somewhere between 10-15%?
Not that I completely trust the CBAA/NBAA numbers anyway. They are in it for the business owners, not the pilots.
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W5
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by W5 »

Looks like an average increase of 4.4% between 2017-2019

No numbers here:
https://www.cbaa-acaa.ca/CBAADocs/2019% ... 0Evans.pdf
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whatsitdoingnow
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by whatsitdoingnow »

I would expect them to be higher than 4.4%.

CPI alone was 4.8% from 2017 to 2019.

I’ve seen large jumps in pay over the past 18 months at our company.

I’m always a little suspect of these surveys though. CBAA are in it for the businesses not the pilots. Didn’t they lobby against the new fatigue rules?
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Jug
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by Jug »

Any numbers come out yet?
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by JULIETTE »

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:57 pm
Good luck, at most management companies, I'm seeing a reluctance to pay more than 120-140k in the left on mid-large jets unless you have extensive former experience or current on type. Right seat you can expect between 80-95k on the same equipment. Long range heavy equipment is harder to pin down.

I would be interested in seeing the survey as well. I asked to view the copy the company has, and was refused so would assume that it would be in the pilots favour.

It is a real shame that pilots keep all their salaries so secretive, and spread so much misinformation. We would have allot more bargaining power if pilots knew what was common on the field. The employers know.

Anyways, as much as you can trust the survey, or what people say on here, I have obtained validated salaries for Challenger Captains in YYC.

Straight salary FYI (no perDiems/RRSP match/callouts,etc)

147k for 2020 (up 5% from 2019 to cover cost of living. 140k for 2019 up from 115k in 2018; mostly due to retention to keep people from jumping to the airlines. So 22% up from 2018.

Corporate pay has been going up fairly steadily by at least 5-10% per year so I wouldn’t trust the salaries from the 2017 survey posted earlier.

Other operator is paying 165k for a type rated captain that left us last year.

If anyone has verified numbers for large corporate jets (gulfstreams/global) I would like to see them.

Feel free to PM me if you need more information about where I got my salary numbers from, and good luck with negotiations for 2020. :)
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by cjp »

Screenshot. Could only get the one due to it's "classified" nature.

Start the car...
2019 Jet Salaries.jpg
2019 Jet Salaries.jpg (339.04 KiB) Viewed 1666 times
Disclaimer: Not really classified, corporate pilots are paranoid. Vive la revolution.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

:prayer:
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by JULIETTE »

Thank you!

Interesting.... I would have thought some of the numbers would have been higher, and a little more differentiation between super heavy international Captain and a mid size captain.

I am slightly sceptical about some of the numbers, given Sprints Citation pay and Legacy pay (5years) would all be above the 90% in their class, Skyservice G200 and Challenger pay would be at or above the 90% as well. Unless Chartright is pulling down the averages, it seems most of the larger players West and East are within the top of the 90% or above....

Good to see a jump of 10%+ from last year in most pilot categories.
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by cjp »

Yeah, something is a little screwy with the 2019 numbers. They don't seem to accurately portray the situation and there may, in fact, be a number of companies that are dragging them down on purpose, to deter major tete-a-tetes going forward.

If you look at the big picture and have been following the recent salary growth (circa 2015/16), you can see the positive macros within the matrix. Many companies, in trying to woo clients, undersell by a boatload and forget to tell those price sensitive clients how difficult it will be attracting experienced flightcrew at said wages.

CBAA should create a list of average cost and length of the training agreements these companies seem to think are the bees knees. I've heard some ridiculous numbers, like 100K for a super midsize type over 2 years?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by Jet Jockey »

Can't believe Global Express, Gulfstream 550/650 and 7X captains don't make more then indicated on that pay scale.

I can tell you that the senior captains on the Globals make a lot more money than that.

But again in the corporate world, whether managed or on their own, the pay will depend on the owner.

The only thing that counts when talking pay is the base salary, RRSP contributions (or any other such schemes) and overtime... Per diems are not part of the salary.

BTW, in 2019 I got $32,801.00 in per diems.
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by CYYC/CYBW »

Jet Jockey wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:14 pm
Can't believe Global Express, Gulfstream 550/650 and 7X captains don't make more then indicated on that pay scale

They do. The 650/550 pilots in Calgary are well over 200k and my friend just got on a Global out of YYZ, over 200k.

As stated earlier, it seems the numbers are purposely low for some reason.... take them with scepticism, and try to get the actual numbers for pilots on the field.
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Jet Jockey
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Re: CBAA 2019 Compensation Survey

Post by Jet Jockey »

CYYC/CYBW wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:09 pm
Jet Jockey wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:14 pm
Can't believe Global Express, Gulfstream 550/650 and 7X captains don't make more then indicated on that pay scale

They do. The 650/550 pilots in Calgary are well over 200k and my friend just got on a Global out of YYZ, over 200k.

As stated earlier, it seems the numbers are purposely low for some reason.... take them with scepticism, and try to get the actual numbers for pilots on the field.
Count me in that group plus many others in CYUL.
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