Sunwing hires Swoop

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altiplano
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by altiplano »

Fanblade wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:06 am
altiplano wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:36 am

Speaking of corporate espionage, it was clear that both AC and WS were "spying" on each other which is why it was settled. Any data that could have been gleaned from any employee travel website, wasn't really confidential or helpful. Counting passengers, something that AC does on its competitors on a regular basis, without more details on yield, is honestly a total waste of time.
All competing companies monitor each other. Superstore pays people to price check Walmart. Walmart pays people to price check Superstore. They also count the number of people entering. This is the norm and considered fair game in the competition world. All companies are permitted to access anything already open to the public.

What isn’t fair game is to access information considered private. Which is what MH did.

For what it’s worth the information gathered was used to plan WJ’s move from YHM to YYZ at a time that AC was very vulnerable to total failure. You shouldn’t try to minimize or normalize the behaviour. It reflects poorly on both you and WJ.
Please edit your quote to reflect the proper poster.

I did not write that.
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altiplano
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by altiplano »

Fanblade wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:06 am
altiplano wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:36 am

Speaking of corporate espionage, it was clear that both AC and WS were "spying" on each other which is why it was settled. Any data that could have been gleaned from any employee travel website, wasn't really confidential or helpful. Counting passengers, something that AC does on its competitors on a regular basis, without more details on yield, is honestly a total waste of time.
All competing companies monitor each other. Superstore pays people to price check Walmart. Walmart pays people to price check Superstore. They also count the number of people entering. This is the norm and considered fair game in the competition world. All companies are permitted to access anything already open to the public.

What isn’t fair game is to access information considered private. Which is what MH did.

For what it’s worth the information gathered was used to plan WJ’s move from YHM to YYZ at a time that AC was very vulnerable to total failure. You shouldn’t try to minimize or normalize the behaviour. It reflects poorly on both you and WJ.
Please edit your quote to reflect the proper poster.

I did not write that.
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BBQ Chips
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by BBQ Chips »

kiaszceski wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:24 pm
The only difference between the pay rate is the minimum guaranteed. I guess ALPA would make it work...

Does swoop have a 12 year pay scale topping out over 200k?

Honest question as I don’t know if things have changed there.
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kiaszceski
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by kiaszceski »

BBQ Chips wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:42 am
kiaszceski wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:24 pm
The only difference between the pay rate is the minimum guaranteed. I guess ALPA would make it work...

Does swoop have a 12 year pay scale topping out over 200k?

Honest question as I don’t know if things have changed there.
I am assuming Swoop skipper will either flow to mainline or the pay scale will change.
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moe
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by moe »

12yr scale? Hell no!
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cloak
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by cloak »

Fanblade wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:06 am
... You shouldn’t try to minimize or normalize the behaviour. It reflects poorly on both you and WJ.
Fanblade,

I appreciate your advice and posturing, but fortunately I've been around long enough to exactly know Air Canada's record in corporate espionage - from Roots Air, Canada 3000, Porter and all other cases - not to equate getting caught or not pursuing a double-edged legal sword, with being bereft of any wrong-doing. For instance, if Air Canada was so concerned about the piloting profession and their pay and benefits, first it would lift the four long year probationary flat pay for new hires that is the root cause of poor pilots pay in this country; it needed not send it pilots in uniform to another airline's AGM. Have a nice evening!
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Fanblade
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by Fanblade »

cloak wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:46 pm
Fanblade wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:06 am
... You shouldn’t try to minimize or normalize the behaviour. It reflects poorly on both you and WJ.
Fanblade,

I appreciate your advice and posturing, but fortunately I've been around long enough to exactly know Air Canada's record in corporate espionage - from Roots Air, Canada 3000, Porter and all other cases.
There you go again. Corporate Espionage???????????? :lol: :lol: :lol: Deflection. Look, WJ crossed the line when they went after non public, competitive sensitive data. Trying to rationalize, justify or excuse the action simply means refusal to accept responsibility. It reflects poorly. Worse you keep repeating it.

But since your so willing to keep this mud flying. Please back up your allegations of corporate espionage with facts. :lol:
cloak wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:46 pm

For instance, if Air Canada was so concerned about the piloting profession and their pay and benefits, first it would lift the four long year probationary flat pay for new hires that is the root cause of poor pilots pay in this country; it needed not send it pilots in uniform to another airline's AGM. Have a nice evening!
Of course Air Canada doesn’t care about the piloting profession. They want the cheapest labor possible. That is their job. The responsibility for the quality of the job falls to ACPA. ACPA is the one that agreed to Rouge, the end of DB pensions and four year flat pay in exchange for a 5% raise and 2%/year for the following 9 years. You want to hold someone accountable? ACPA.

Air Canada did not send pilots to WJ’s AGM. ACPA showed up in support of the WJ pilots. So again. Place your anger where it belongs.

You clearly are not an ACPA supporter. Me neither
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altiplano
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by altiplano »

I'll agree with Fanblade on the corporate espionage claims.

Suing an airline, or putting pressure on another airline, or lobbying, is not espionage.

Convertly stealing competitors data? That is espionage.

I also agree that Air Canada management doesn't give two shits about the Piloting Profession. Their job is to keep us down. And AC Pilots showed up in solidarity and support with our Westjet colleagues when they too were being railroaded by their employer.

But Fanblade I disagree on some of your other comments.

We are ACPA.

And ACPA voted down the introduction of the LCC and loss of DB pension that was negotiated secretly and without a mandate from the membership or a majority of our leadership, by a few cowards.

Then they used the government, violated the Canadian Constitution, and stole it anyway.

30 people was all it took to @#$! us.

Rovinescu, Harper, Raitt, Group of 27.
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Fanblade
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by Fanblade »

altiplano wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:40 am

But Fanblade I disagree on some of your other comments.

We are ACPA.

And ACPA voted down the introduction of the LCC and loss of DB pension that was negotiated secretly and without a mandate from the membership or a majority of our leadership, by a few cowards.

Then they used the government, violated the Canadian Constitution, and stole it anyway.

30 people was all it took to @#$! us.

Rovinescu, Harper, Raitt, Group of 27.
Altiplano,

I think you are missing one factual nugget. The negotiations committee signed a memorandum of Agreement (MOA) with the company before the MEC had a chance to see the deal. This was a serious governance gaff and should never have happened. But since it did happen, jurisprudence meant that in arbitration the MOA becomes the starting point. All AC had to do was get us into arbitration to get it. That MOA sealed the deal. The MOA meant that what the MEC thought, or the membership thought no longer mattered.

That was strike 1

The group of 27 turned out to be the canary in the coal mine as the TA2 negotiators tried to ignore the MOA jurisprudence and refused to negotiate off it which aloud the company to take us to the cleaners in FOS.

Strike 2

Then ACPA negotiated a 10 year agreement at the rate of inflation. IOW no raise for 10 years.

Strike 3
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

Sunwing has been using other airlines to fill it's capacity needs for years.

They've had deals where the wet/dry lease overseas aircraft, lease American aircraft, send their customers on other airlines scheduled flights (InterJet).

This is not a stretch for Sunwing as they are down an aircraft compared to this time last year as they have returned one of the 800s and taken on three Maxs.

And to call Sunwing a competitor to WestJet is like calling IKEA a competitor to Cracker Barrel. Sunwing is a vacation company that owns an airline. Sunwing Airlines never made money and it was never supposed to. WestJet is an airline that has a vacation subsidiary. WestJet was never designed to be a vacation company, it's just an extra source of revenue.
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cloak
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by cloak »

altiplano wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:40 am
...And AC Pilots showed up in solidarity and support with our Westjet colleagues when they too were being railroaded by their employer....
You seem to be suggesting that ACPA is a benevolent organisation charging itself with improving the futures and fortunes of pilots in this country. Then, why has it allowed such travesty that is a four year probationary pay at the flag carrier? Why has it not done anything to change it, make declarations, ask other pilots to join at Air Canada AGM for a march? What can it do for others, that it hasn't done for its own members?!
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altiplano
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by altiplano »

cloak wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:01 am
altiplano wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:40 am
...And AC Pilots showed up in solidarity and support with our Westjet colleagues when they too were being railroaded by their employer....
You seem to be suggesting that ACPA is a benevolent organisation charging itself with improving the futures and fortunes of pilots in this country. Then, why has it allowed such travesty that is a four year probationary pay at the flag carrier? Why has it not done anything to change it, make declarations, ask other pilots to join at Air Canada AGM for a march? What can it do for others, that it hasn't done for its own members?!
Allow it? The Harper Government imposed it... and a whole lot more. I'm not defending it, but get your fact straight. We've managed to make a big improvement on the new pension on the last reopener, plus get pay guarantees before that. Tough to get it all at once. The pension was priority for the NC/MEC it seems.

That's the other thing, now that guys have a fully tax shielded & matched pension contribution above CRA RRSP limits, plus 100% employer paid benefits, I understand guys are taking home more first year pay at AC than what they were year 5,6,7 even at your favourite airline. I see a lot from that group joining us almost every month so it can't be all that bad, despite the ONE metric you like to bring up. You need to look at your own house... you always seem to ignore the fact that AC has the best overall contract and the highest pay rates overall in the country. And yet you point fingers at us. It's difficult to forge ahead when you have to fight off all the shit comparators you're exposed to. Believe it or not, and I can't, but arbitrators are loathe to look at DL/UA/AA/SW as our comparators and we get stuck with WS/TS holding us back.

Looking at history, most people were stuck as an RP or EMJ FO during those slow times when 4 year flat first rolled out, plus it replaced an even worse 2 year flat pay, it was actually a slight raise for all but the few that could get to 320 FO in year 3 or 4. But AC certainly saw the future and it's worse now that guys are getting 777 or whatever in their 2nd year. That was a dream 5 years ago.

Anyway. ACPA has done poorly on much there is no doubt - but you can't just magically get everything back. Plus we're banned from labour action under the federal PASA law and our own ridiculous 10 year MOA from a guy that was basically colluding with management.

We'll see how next year's opener goes... or maybe we blow up the whole contract with Transat joining us. I'm certainly thinking about what we can do better here, so why don't you stop licking your balls and take a look at what else you can do for yourself? That's how pattern bargaining succeeds... we're beating you right now, then you get ahead of us, then we get ahead of you on our next go. That's how we succeed, together... right now AC is on it's own out front.
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altiplano
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by altiplano »

Fanblade wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:59 am
I think you are missing one factual nugget. The negotiations committee signed a memorandum of Agreement (MOA) with the company before the MEC had a chance to see the deal. This was a serious governance gaff and should never have happened. But since it did happen, jurisprudence meant that in arbitration the MOA becomes the starting point. All AC had to do was get us into arbitration to get it. That MOA sealed the deal. The MOA meant that what the MEC thought, or the membership thought no longer mattered.
That was something the NC member had no standing to do... might as well have an AC line maintenance guy ordering a whole new aircraft fleet...

Or parliament passing laws without it going to the senate or GG as well.

Bullshit, that guy doesn't represent the union in that capacity, he's off script, it's against our governance and constitution

That strike should have never existed.
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cloak
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by cloak »

altiplano wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:36 pm

Allow it? The Harper Government imposed it... and a whole lot more. I'm not defending it, but get your fact straight. We've managed to make a big improvement on the new pension on the last reopener, plus get pay guarantees before that. Tough to get it all at once. The pension was priority for the NC/MEC it seems.

Anyway. ACPA has done poorly on much there is no doubt - but you can't just magically get everything back. Plus we're banned from labour action under the federal PASA law and our own ridiculous 10 year MOA from a guy that was basically colluding with management.

We'll see how next year's opener goes... or maybe we blow up the whole contract with Transat joining us. I'm certainly thinking about what we can do better here, so why don't you stop licking your balls and take a look at what else you can do for yourself? That's how pattern bargaining succeeds... we're beating you right now, then you get ahead of us, then we get ahead of you on our next go. That's how we succeed, together... right now AC is on it's own out front.
The point was that ACPA isn't exactly crying about it, making declarations, rallies, marches, nothing. First there was a one year flat pay, then two, now four, not to mention the genius of the 10 year contract! The fact is your corporation is many moves ahead, they foresaw paying B777 FOs 55K years ago, and now your comparing a century old crown corporation turned private legacy flag carrier of the country, with a young LCC that is just entering the global market and getting its first WBs made their work almost complete!
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altiplano
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by altiplano »

I don't know what your point is supposed to be... ACPA has fucked up plenty, I've acknowledges that tons on this forum. We had, correction we still have, corporate lickspittles making their way into key positions and we have plenty of misunderstanding and disengagement in our membership. But somehow, despite the incompetence, the losses, the government burden, and all the interference in our recent years, we're still well out front of you and your years of corporate profit and years of cooperating and cleaning the seat pockets... what the frack... catch up already.

Yet you're the one carrying on, and"just entering the global market", but I thought Westjet showed everyone how it's done on the Atlantic already?

Edit to add:
You say $55K?

That's barely first year flying pay guarantee. Add your actual flying pay. Add company paid pension contributions. Add fully paid benefits. Add sim/training pay. Add profit share. Add company stock match if you're participating in that.

Nobody is making 55K.
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cloak
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by cloak »

altiplano wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:21 pm
I don't know what your point is supposed to be... ACPA has fucked up plenty, I've acknowledges that tons on this forum. We had, correction we still have, corporate lickspittles making their way into key positions and we have plenty of misunderstanding and disengagement in our membership.
If you stopped right there, that would have been a good post! The point was that you are comparing a seasoned century old airline that until recently was a crown corporation and is still the flag carrier and enjoys monopoly on many routes with a relatively young airline that is just entering the global market. Not a good comparison. But keep your eyes peeled...!
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Rowdy
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by Rowdy »

cloak wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:39 am
altiplano wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:21 pm
I don't know what your point is supposed to be... ACPA has fucked up plenty, I've acknowledges that tons on this forum. We had, correction we still have, corporate lickspittles making their way into key positions and we have plenty of misunderstanding and disengagement in our membership.
If you stopped right there, that would have been a good post! The point was that you are comparing a seasoned century old airline that until recently was a crown corporation and is still the flag carrier and enjoys monopoly on many routes with a relatively young airline that is just entering the global market. Not a good comparison. But keep your eyes peeled...!
Just recently? You mean in 1988. Before most of the Encore pilots were born :wink:

Jokes aside. Please don't let the facts get in the way of good avcanada fist shaking.
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by altiplano »

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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by CaptainHaddock »

There is no 12 year pay scale at Swoop. Any growth at Swoop (flying Sunwing peeps, or ‘Swoop Vacations’) is totally out of WestJet. Selling empty seats to your competitor (for I am guessing pretty cheap rates) sounds more like looking for change under the sofa cushions. Swoop is still the same crap pay/working conditions as bequeathed by Mr Kaplan initially. At least the majority of the WJ pilots have now left-so the rest don’t know what they are missing. So we voted to go on strike and ended up being giving exactly what we were trying to avoid. Sh#t wages and conditions, and really two different pilot groups as very few from WJ or Encore want to eat the steaming pile.
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by mbav8r »

cloak wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:39 am
altiplano wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:21 pm
I don't know what your point is supposed to be... ACPA has fucked up plenty, I've acknowledges that tons on this forum. We had, correction we still have, corporate lickspittles making their way into key positions and we have plenty of misunderstanding and disengagement in our membership.
If you stopped right there, that would have been a good post! The point was that you are comparing a seasoned century old airline that until recently was a crown corporation and is still the flag carrier and enjoys monopoly on many routes with a relatively young airline that is just entering the global market. Not a good comparison. But keep your eyes peeled...!
“the airline was privatized in 1988” holy crap, 31 years ago is “recently” to you! It’s been a private company longer than WJ has been around
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cloak
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by cloak »

mbav8r wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:24 am
... It’s been a private company longer than WJ has been around
My point exactly ace! Not a good comparison!
Much older corporation, more aircraft types, mergers, acquisitions, assimilations, government bail-outs, much more everything!
Yet, it has the lowest start rate with 4 long years of probationary flat pay, not exactly something to boast about.
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by cloak »

CaptainHaddock wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:51 pm
... So we voted to go on strike and ended up being giving exactly what we were trying to avoid. ...
It's actually worse, the bonus was lost and the pay is less than the initial offer, and you have to pay union dues to get it! Thank ALPA!
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altiplano
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by altiplano »

cloak wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:32 am
mbav8r wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:24 am
... It’s been a private company longer than WJ has been around
My point exactly ace! Not a good comparison!
Much older corporation, more aircraft types, mergers, acquisitions, assimilations, government bail-outs, much more everything!
Yet, it has the lowest start rate with 4 long years of probationary flat pay, not exactly something to boast about.
With a better contract and higher net takes home salary.
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by mbav8r »

cloak wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:32 am
mbav8r wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:24 am
... It’s been a private company longer than WJ has been around
My point exactly ace! Not a good comparison!
Much older corporation, more aircraft types, mergers, acquisitions, assimilations, government bail-outs, much more everything!
Yet, it has the lowest start rate with 4 long years of probationary flat pay, not exactly something to boast about.
You should know you’re working for the airline the started the race to the bottom in Canada, 55/hr for 737 Captain, you should be ashamed, furthermore Rouge was handed down in arbitration and the Contract was based on the WJ pilots contract at the time, thanks for all you’ve done for the industry.
Also, your market share has not increased or changed significantly in quite some time, good luck with the world domination, based on past performance, you’ll need it!
P.S. you should cut back on the koolaid, you come across as a fervent cult member, seems like you’ve bought into every single buzz word and hype peddled your way!
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flashheart
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by flashheart »

What's the deal with Cloak anyways?

Is he some kind of wanna be super Koolaid drinker manager? If you read his drivel it is like WJ Poop don't stank no matter what they do (but be sure the pilots still are required to pick up this poop after each flight)
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