737 to 787 Upgrade Times

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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

cloak wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:41 pmOnce Onex takes over, it can fix all that by selling Encore and entering into a long term CPA which guarantees revenue for the new investors.
If that's what you really think, you're not just deluded, you're an asshole.

What you are proposing is to tell 500+ WestJet employees that they are less than you. Encore flies the same passengers for the same common goal. We wear the same uniform, pay in to the same ESPP, and face the same problems.

You think that all of these people are beneath you because they fly a smaller aircraft for less money? There are how many hundreds of pilots who were WestJet employees before hundreds of mainline pilots? These people who worked for years as WestJet employees are now nothing to you?
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FL-280
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by FL-280 »

Welcome to the real world my friend.... how do you think every pilot at Jazz or sky feels?
What would make you so special to go around that?

Then you will say: ahhhh but I am a Westjet employee. Talk to the oldtimers at Jazz and see how that went for them...
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jd832
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by jd832 »

plausiblyannonymous wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:53 am
cloak wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:41 pmOnce Onex takes over, it can fix all that by selling Encore and entering into a long term CPA which guarantees revenue for the new investors.
If that's what you really think, you're not just deluded, you're an asshole.

What you are proposing is to tell 500+ WestJet employees that they are less than you. Encore flies the same passengers for the same common goal. We wear the same uniform, pay in to the same ESPP, and face the same problems.

You think that all of these people are beneath you because they fly a smaller aircraft for less money? There are how many hundreds of pilots who were WestJet employees before hundreds of mainline pilots? These people who worked for years as WestJet employees are now nothing to you?
That's a very naive statement. He was stating the reality of how this industry works and how large investment companies play their cards. No one is wishing that on any Encore employee, but the reality is just that. Onex is in control now. They have different corporate culture and values.
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cloak
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by cloak »

The frustration is understood. To some it's personal. To some it's just business. One has to ask why was a company created separately in the first place? It's these flexibilities that may also be appealing to new buyers. Much has been said recently about recruitment and training challenges. A move like that will solve the problem for the investors. Will that actually happen? Most of us don't know, but some do know and do have plans to make the group most successful and most valuable. Their interests unfortunately don't always seem aligned immediately with the workers, although they often work out in the long run.

It's also a matter of perceiving new opportunities and aligning oneself with them. Behaving entirely based on emotion usually works to one's disadvantage. Take the stock market for instance. An emotional investor that sees a 30% drop in his investment stays invested vowing never to sell until it goes back up and so on. In the process, the stock goes further down, and valuable time is wasted. A savvy investor takes the money out with the 30% loss, and invests it in something that is growing and has momentum. In the process, claims the capital loss against past gains, and before long that money has doubled surpassing the initial investment. As hard as it is, sometimes one must accept the current realities, the losses, and go where the market is going.
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tallyho
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by tallyho »

The only thing we know for sure about future hiring prospects and career advancement at WJ/Swoop/Encore is that no one on here and probably in the boardroom at WJ has a flookin clue what's going to happen over the next 5 years. Accepting any job in aviation is a risk as it may disappear. The only certainty is that in a seniority driven career the sooner you get your foot in the door the better.
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altiplano
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by altiplano »

cloak wrote:Take the stock market for instance. An emotional investor that sees a 30% drop in his investment stays invested vowing never to sell until it goes back up and so on. In the process, the stock goes further down, and valuable time is wasted. A savvy investor takes the money out with the 30% loss, and invests it in something that is growing and has momentum. In the process, claims the capital loss against past gains, and before long that money has doubled surpassing the initial investment.
Is that how it goes?
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Duke Point
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by Duke Point »

Guess I have an obvious question about 787 growth. Where is all the "untapped market" for all of these future arrivals?

I mean Air Canada, and Transat (pre-merger) would have filled any "obvious" market vacancies that would generate good, steady income, no? Are they poorly positioned to do so in the future, thus leaving a "hole" to fill? The fallout of choosing a Trudeau government is certainly going to impact things, and soon.

Boy, a brand new 787 at around $160,000,000 USD is going to need a pretty steady diet of decent yield in CDN $$$, meaning full airplanes all the time, and a roaring economy. Sounds a bit risky given that the competition will likely not "sit around" while someone else eats their lunch.

Is Gerry and the Onex BOD ready to roll the dice with billions in a Trudeau economic environment? There are a lot of Western Canadians tightening their belts, hard.

DP.
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Oxi
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by Oxi »

YYC-FCO... the money maker
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Hangry
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by Hangry »

Oxi wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:18 pm YYC-FCO... the money maker
Total brilliance right there.
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Transonic
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by Transonic »

Oxi wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:18 pm YYC-FCO... the money maker
It’s kind of like YYC-DUB, which this summer was half filled with Americans from the West Coast USA.

The US3 are not pleased seeing AC/RV pull their passengers out of the USA and send them overseas. Canadian Airlines have a wage and currency advantage.

With the WS/DL JV, Delta will now have its competitive response to AC’s recent growth and the low fares that enabled it.

And WestJet still has a 10-20% cost advantage over AC.
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Hangry
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by Hangry »

Transonic wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:16 am
Oxi wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:18 pm YYC-FCO... the money maker
It’s kind of like YYC-DUB, which this summer was half filled with Americans from the West Coast USA.

The US3 are not pleased seeing AC/RV pull their passengers out of the USA and send them overseas. Canadian Airlines have a wage and currency advantage.

With the WS/DL JV, Delta will now have its competitive response to AC’s recent growth and the low fares that enabled it.

And WestJet still has a 10-20% cost advantage over AC.

Kind of like how WJ pays NB wages on the 87.
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Transonic
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by Transonic »

Hangry wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:27 am
Transonic wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:16 am
Oxi wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:18 pm YYC-FCO... the money maker
It’s kind of like YYC-DUB, which this summer was half filled with Americans from the West Coast USA.

The US3 are not pleased seeing AC/RV pull their passengers out of the USA and send them overseas. Canadian Airlines have a wage and currency advantage.

With the WS/DL JV, Delta will now have its competitive response to AC’s recent growth and the low fares that enabled it.

And WestJet still has a 10-20% cost advantage over AC.

Kind of like how WJ pays NB wages on the 87.

Not really. The cost advantage is over the entire operation.

I was also referring to a AC vs US3. Our dollar is 30% less with painfully lower wages. How many AC pilots make 5 figures on flat pay? Over a 1000? How many will there be after the last big hiring push in 2020? 1500? 1800?

I’m not trying to knock pay. Both AC and WS are recovering from arbitrated agreements that have lowered the bar.

I’m emphasizing the advantage AC has over the US3 which has fueled the growth strategy over the last 5 years. Now WestJet wants in and Delta wants to fight back.
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Transonic
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by Transonic »

Duke Point wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:11 pm Guess I have an obvious question about 787 growth. Where is all the "untapped market" for all of these future arrivals?

I mean Air Canada, and Transat (pre-merger) would have filled any "obvious" market vacancies that would generate good, steady income, no? Are they poorly positioned to do so in the future, thus leaving a "hole" to fill? The fallout of choosing a Trudeau government is certainly going to impact things, and soon.

Boy, a brand new 787 at around $160,000,000 USD is going to need a pretty steady diet of decent yield in CDN $$$, meaning full airplanes all the time, and a roaring economy. Sounds a bit risky given that the competition will likely not "sit around" while someone else eats their lunch.

Is Gerry and the Onex BOD ready to roll the dice with billions in a Trudeau economic environment? There are a lot of Western Canadians tightening their belts, hard.

DP.

WestJet traded 15MAX options for 10 787 firm orders with no additional capital required, so likely less than 160 million. WestJet leverage the 767 fiasco for the discount.

Unfortunately, there is no untapped market. Just AC’s market and WestJet is not shy stating that. WestJet will mainly focus on feeding European partners in their major hubs. It’s a lower risk strategy that leans on DL/KLM/AF and hopefully ensures the aircraft are full year round. Outside of AMS and CDG, WestJet may selectively move onto AC’s low hanging fruit, utilizing their cost advantage. They called it the Rinse, Wash, Repeat strategy in the 2000s.
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FL410AV8R
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by FL410AV8R »

Transonic wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:37 am WestJet traded 15MAX options for 10 787 firm orders with no additional capital required, so likely less than 160 million. WestJet leverage the 767 fiasco for the discount.
Care to share where you got that information?? I haven’t seen that disclosed anywhere.

The last I saw was 10 firm and 10 options for 787s. Did they firm up the options??
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groundpilot
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by groundpilot »

Transonic wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:37 am
Duke Point wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:11 pm Guess I have an obvious question about 787 growth. Where is all the "untapped market" for all of these future arrivals?

I mean Air Canada, and Transat (pre-merger) would have filled any "obvious" market vacancies that would generate good, steady income, no? Are they poorly positioned to do so in the future, thus leaving a "hole" to fill? The fallout of choosing a Trudeau government is certainly going to impact things, and soon.

Boy, a brand new 787 at around $160,000,000 USD is going to need a pretty steady diet of decent yield in CDN $$$, meaning full airplanes all the time, and a roaring economy. Sounds a bit risky given that the competition will likely not "sit around" while someone else eats their lunch.

Is Gerry and the Onex BOD ready to roll the dice with billions in a Trudeau economic environment? There are a lot of Western Canadians tightening their belts, hard.

DP.

WestJet traded 15MAX options for 10 787 firm orders with no additional capital required, so likely less than 160 million. WestJet leverage the 767 fiasco for the discount.

Unfortunately, there is no untapped market. Just AC’s market and WestJet is not shy stating that. WestJet will mainly focus on feeding European partners in their major hubs. It’s a lower risk strategy that leans on DL/KLM/AF and hopefully ensures the aircraft are full year round. Outside of AMS and CDG, WestJet may selectively move onto AC’s low hanging fruit, utilizing their cost advantage. They called it the Rinse, Wash, Repeat strategy in the 2000s.
Using yesterday’s strategies tomorrow...
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Transonic
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by Transonic »

groundpilot wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:13 pm
Transonic wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:37 am
Duke Point wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:11 pm Guess I have an obvious question about 787 growth. Where is all the "untapped market" for all of these future arrivals?

I mean Air Canada, and Transat (pre-merger) would have filled any "obvious" market vacancies that would generate good, steady income, no? Are they poorly positioned to do so in the future, thus leaving a "hole" to fill? The fallout of choosing a Trudeau government is certainly going to impact things, and soon.

Boy, a brand new 787 at around $160,000,000 USD is going to need a pretty steady diet of decent yield in CDN $$$, meaning full airplanes all the time, and a roaring economy. Sounds a bit risky given that the competition will likely not "sit around" while someone else eats their lunch.

Is Gerry and the Onex BOD ready to roll the dice with billions in a Trudeau economic environment? There are a lot of Western Canadians tightening their belts, hard.

DP.

WestJet traded 15MAX options for 10 787 firm orders with no additional capital required, so likely less than 160 million. WestJet leverage the 767 fiasco for the discount.

Unfortunately, there is no untapped market. Just AC’s market and WestJet is not shy stating that. WestJet will mainly focus on feeding European partners in their major hubs. It’s a lower risk strategy that leans on DL/KLM/AF and hopefully ensures the aircraft are full year round. Outside of AMS and CDG, WestJet may selectively move onto AC’s low hanging fruit, utilizing their cost advantage. They called it the Rinse, Wash, Repeat strategy in the 2000s.
Using yesterday’s strategies tomorrow...
Yep, nailed it. Slow, steady and low risk. It allowed WestJet to grow to 100 737s in 16 years.
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Transonic
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by Transonic »

FL410AV8R wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:50 pm
Transonic wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:37 am WestJet traded 15MAX options for 10 787 firm orders with no additional capital required, so likely less than 160 million. WestJet leverage the 767 fiasco for the discount.
Care to share where you got that information?? I haven’t seen that disclosed anywhere.

The last I saw was 10 firm and 10 options for 787s. Did they firm up the options??
As far as I know it’s still 10 firm and 10 options. I was referring to the original 10, which are at a steep discount.

A minor correction, it was 15 firm MAXs for 10 787s.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/w ... =eml_mycnw

“As part of this purchase agreement, WestJet is converting 15 firm orders for the Boeing 737 MAX that were to be delivered between 2019 and 2021 to options available between 2022 and 2024.”

It’s been 2 years but I think it was on a conference call where it was mentioned it was cost neutral.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by goingnowherefast »

I bet management is laughing about that one. Those Max's would have been currently be holding down the pavement in storage while the 787s orders are now out flying and producing revenue.
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altiplano
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by altiplano »

Transonic wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:32 pm
FL410AV8R wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:50 pm
Transonic wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:37 am WestJet traded 15MAX options for 10 787 firm orders with no additional capital required, so likely less than 160 million. WestJet leverage the 767 fiasco for the discount.
Care to share where you got that information?? I haven’t seen that disclosed anywhere.

The last I saw was 10 firm and 10 options for 787s. Did they firm up the options??
As far as I know it’s still 10 firm and 10 options. I was referring to the original 10, which are at a steep discount.

A minor correction, it was 15 firm MAXs for 10 787s.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/w ... =eml_mycnw

“As part of this purchase agreement, WestJet is converting 15 firm orders for the Boeing 737 MAX that were to be delivered between 2019 and 2021 to options available between 2022 and 2024.”

It’s been 2 years but I think it was on a conference call where it was mentioned it was cost neutral.
I think you are misreading the deal... or maybe I'm misunderstanding your understanding of the statement.

As part of their 787 10/10 order, they were permitted to convert 15 firm MAX orders scheduled between 19-21, to 15 MAX options between 22-24.

It wasn't a trade of 15 MAXs for 10 787s.

If it was commented as cost neutral it was probably because it didn't cost them anything to convert firm MAX orders into options and they converted them to options at the same price they had for the firm orders.
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Transonic
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Re: 737 to 787 Upgrade Times

Post by Transonic »

The initial MAX order was to be funded with debt and cash from operations.

WestJet then announced they would receive 10 787s and reduce the MAX order by 15. WestJet told the analysts there will be no adjustments to future capital requirements despite the fleet plan change.

In 2018, WestJet fell short of their profit expectations and no longer had the cash from operations that they expected, hence the sale and lease back.

WestJet wanted the 787 but at the A330NEO price, and they did that.
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