seriously. These big mouths need to learn to use google. It's not hard.flashheart wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:16 pmPretty hard to negotiate so bravely when you're forced back to work and you lose your ability to strike while your competition is accepting less and cleaning garbage.schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:20 pmSorry, no.Hangry wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:04 pm AC pilots will end up in aribitration sooner than later. How can they demand "industry standard" (even close to US carriers) when the rest of Canada is willing to work for way less garbage wages for airline work.
It is absolutely up to the other carriers to step up their game.
Ac is getting dragged down and has been for years. Look in the mirror.
Air Canada flies the heaviest metal, has the largest fleet, and is the only flag bearing carrier in Canada. You are at the head of the Canadian industry. Every other company in Canada is pegged at Air Canada's current wage scale. What's the starting wage on any 705 machine in Canada? About the same as the starting wage at AC, minus the cargo carriers who exceed AC by about 20k for the 757/767 and remain ahead until year 5.
You guys ARE the glass ceiling. Stop copping out and blaming the smaller, less protected companies from using your horrific wages, so that you can justify not actually being payed a respectable wage for your equipment while Air Canada is in one of its most profitable periods in its history.
Do better, not just for the other guy, but for yourself. Min starting wage at AC should be closer to 100k after perusing other international carriers starting wages who operate on the same equilment on the same scale.
Shame on you for constantly blaming the smaller guys.
Yes it sucks but a lot more to the story than simply ACPA's fault
Air Canada Pay
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Re: Air Canada Pay
- schnitzel2k3
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Re: Air Canada Pay
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Last edited by schnitzel2k3 on Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
- schnitzel2k3
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Re: Air Canada Pay
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Last edited by schnitzel2k3 on Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Air Canada Pay
So what your saying is you were full of when you said you had a higher wage than any Air Canada senior FO.schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:08 pmDid very well, thank you for asking. Not quite the 0.01% @ 302K, but I don't have to sell my soul working draft to get to those numbers (nor likely pay alimony and child support). Most people in my neighborhood think I'm midlife retired or on parental leave.Sharklasers wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:56 pmThe average pilot salary was 176k last year at AC how did you stack against that?schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:39 pm
Corporate and north of any of Air Canada's senior first officer wages flying a jet under 20T. I've been in this industry approximately 10 years.
Senior FOs on the 777 all make North of 200k and are home 19-23 days a month IF they didn’t have one of their 6 weeks of vacation that month or use 1 of their 12 annual paid sick days. How does your light jet stack up their? Let’s talk pensions... how’s yours? mine says I’ll retire with 250k annually.
The flat pay was shoved down our throats in FOS and is one of the many distasteful things about that experience. We are slowly improving our contract with things like the pension being mostly fixed now. It’s a hard road because all the other Canadian carriers are so far behind us we cannot effectively pattern bargain.
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Re: Air Canada Pay
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Last edited by schnitzel2k3 on Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Air Canada Pay
@schnitzel. Good for you that you think you're King of your hill, that's awesome, but put your dick back in your shorts because you're embarrassing yourself...
Your posts are full of wrong information and assumptions about other people.
I really like my career decisions too, I really like my job, I spend as much time home as I can, it's a lot, and I still easily crack well into the 200s. I have never worked Christmas at AC, not once, my job is secure, the pensions are absolutely protected by federal legislation and ours is grossly overfunded. I have good benefits, excellent disability, life insurance, sick days, AD&D, and more all paid for. I have choices in my career, where do I want to go, single day or multi-day, what layovers do I want, overseas or domestic, big plane or bigger plane, senior or junior, block or reserve.
Bottom line, I don't know if you're smoking something or just trying to pump yourself up by shitting on what is a damn good job, and one we're still working to make better. I'm not sitting on my hands and taking it for granted.
And these other comments are right on, anyone pointing at AC Pilots for not keeping up with the American Majors only has to read the government appointed arbitrator's decision to see why, we were explicily dragged back to Transat and Westjet wawcon in 2012 and we were forced major concessions out of a manufactured crisis. No question ACPA has made mistakes, some of them big, but despite all that we're still way out front of all the other airlines in this country... If you think those other contracts are needing to ride our coattails you better tell them to stop pulling back on them and start pushing.
Your posts are full of wrong information and assumptions about other people.
I really like my career decisions too, I really like my job, I spend as much time home as I can, it's a lot, and I still easily crack well into the 200s. I have never worked Christmas at AC, not once, my job is secure, the pensions are absolutely protected by federal legislation and ours is grossly overfunded. I have good benefits, excellent disability, life insurance, sick days, AD&D, and more all paid for. I have choices in my career, where do I want to go, single day or multi-day, what layovers do I want, overseas or domestic, big plane or bigger plane, senior or junior, block or reserve.
Bottom line, I don't know if you're smoking something or just trying to pump yourself up by shitting on what is a damn good job, and one we're still working to make better. I'm not sitting on my hands and taking it for granted.
And these other comments are right on, anyone pointing at AC Pilots for not keeping up with the American Majors only has to read the government appointed arbitrator's decision to see why, we were explicily dragged back to Transat and Westjet wawcon in 2012 and we were forced major concessions out of a manufactured crisis. No question ACPA has made mistakes, some of them big, but despite all that we're still way out front of all the other airlines in this country... If you think those other contracts are needing to ride our coattails you better tell them to stop pulling back on them and start pushing.
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Re: Air Canada Pay
I'm not putting my family through flat pay and a junior schedule. Until that's fixed, AC won't see my resume. If there's still a ton of applicants, that's great for AC management. I'm under no illusion that they will "fix" the schedule and pay, so I'll just stay where I am too.
Nowhere is perfect, but where I am is better than 5-10 years of junior garbage schedule at AC when my family needs me the most. I'd also be commuting for my entire career, so screw that.
If I was single I'd be all over AC. I can definitely see the appeal, but it isn't for me or my family.
Nowhere is perfect, but where I am is better than 5-10 years of junior garbage schedule at AC when my family needs me the most. I'd also be commuting for my entire career, so screw that.
If I was single I'd be all over AC. I can definitely see the appeal, but it isn't for me or my family.
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Re: Air Canada Pay
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Last edited by schnitzel2k3 on Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Air Canada Pay
Pretty difficult to fix it all in one go...
A contract takes decades to build and develop, the 10 years leading up to 2012 saw ours set back significantly.
But in the last 5 years...
We got years of service on upgrades back on LOU74.
We got a real pension back for our new hires.
We got a 900 hour new hire guarantee.
Profit share proportioned to benefit the lower income earners.
We got full paid sick vs. 90%.
A bunch of other stuff too...
We've made imorovements, albeit not as many as I'd like, and not necessarily how I would have liked to achieve them, but we're pushing the right direction...
Guys like you come on here every month or two and point fingers and carry on about where we've come up short, like we don't know, like we aren't aware of where we got fucked, but this shit takes time...
What do you think you can call up a contract improvement like you can the next episode on a Netflix series?
A contract takes decades to build and develop, the 10 years leading up to 2012 saw ours set back significantly.
But in the last 5 years...
We got years of service on upgrades back on LOU74.
We got a real pension back for our new hires.
We got a 900 hour new hire guarantee.
Profit share proportioned to benefit the lower income earners.
We got full paid sick vs. 90%.
A bunch of other stuff too...
We've made imorovements, albeit not as many as I'd like, and not necessarily how I would have liked to achieve them, but we're pushing the right direction...
Guys like you come on here every month or two and point fingers and carry on about where we've come up short, like we don't know, like we aren't aware of where we got fucked, but this shit takes time...
What do you think you can call up a contract improvement like you can the next episode on a Netflix series?
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Re: Air Canada Pay
Proceeds to take his dick out and embarrass himself by doing the exact same tooting of his own horn. The defender of the AC galaxy. “Hey at least we make more than the other Canadian pilot jobs”. Once you’re off the flat pay I guess its people not your problem anymore though, eh?put your dick back in your shorts because you're embarrassing yourself...
On the flip side.
Valid pointsaltiplano wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:39 am Pretty difficult to fix it all in one go...
A contract takes decades to build and develop, the 10 years leading up to 2012 saw ours set back significantly.
But in the last 5 years...
We got years of service on upgrades back on LOU74.
We got a real pension back for our new hires.
We got a 900 hour new hire guarantee.
Profit share proportioned to benefit the lower income earners.
We got full paid sick vs. 90%.
A bunch of other stuff too...
We've made imorovements, albeit not as many as I'd like, and not necessarily how I would have liked to achieve them, but we're pushing the right direction...
Guys like you come on here every month or two and point fingers and carry on about where we've come up short, like we don't know, like we aren't aware of where we got fucked, but this shit takes time...
What do you think you can call up a contract improvement like you can the next episode on a Netflix series?
- schnitzel2k3
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Re: Air Canada Pay
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Last edited by schnitzel2k3 on Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Air Canada Pay
I never said we were "the best" I simply said where else in Canada can you fly an airplane for as much as you can at AC. 4 year flat pay is in fact the only thing about Air Canada's pay structure that is consistent with "industry standard" in Canada.schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:14 am*Deep Facepalm*
Is this the common belief at Air Canada? Why is the ONLY legacy carrier in Canada putting all the onus on the rest of the industry to set the bar???
You guys are apparently "the best", so prove it and stop apologizing for all your bull and dragging down the starting wages in the industry.
Trust me, the first thing an Arbitrator will look at is what other 767, A330 etc. pilots make in Canada. Not a good way to start by any means. Flat pay (and overall formula pay) needs to be addressed but very difficult to make any gains of significance when we would immediately lose in arbitration when compared to other Canadian airlines.
- schnitzel2k3
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Re: Air Canada Pay
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Last edited by schnitzel2k3 on Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Air Canada Pay
Again, I never said it was right. Flat pay is an abomination. But.... again... Compare it to WJ, AT, SW, and every other airlines in Canada new hire pay it is pretty hard to convince an arbitrator to rule in our favor. I agree, 1 year 90k flat pay should be it but hey I'm not in charge. Trust me if I had it my way every pilot in Canada would make much more but that is simply not the reality.schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:39 pmYou guys have perfectly normal payscales for all the jets after year 4. I'm not asking you to jam a massive across the board increase. It's really simple, 1 year of "training pay" like most US airlines that is close to the smallest narrowbody you have, then onto regular type pay. Please....stop....blaming...everyone else. That time has past. You guys are now at record historical growth and profits. Starting pay needs to be addressed. Period.danield wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:00 pmI never said we were "the best" I simply said where else in Canada can you fly an airplane for as much as you can at AC. 4 year flat pay is in fact the only thing about Air Canada's pay structure that is consistent with "industry standard" in Canada.schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:14 am
*Deep Facepalm*
Is this the common belief at Air Canada? Why is the ONLY legacy carrier in Canada putting all the onus on the rest of the industry to set the bar???
You guys are apparently "the best", so prove it and stop apologizing for all your bull and dragging down the starting wages in the industry.
Trust me, the first thing an Arbitrator will look at is what other 767, A330 etc. pilots make in Canada. Not a good way to start by any means. Flat pay (and overall formula pay) needs to be addressed but very difficult to make any gains of significance when we would immediately lose in arbitration when compared to other Canadian airlines.
- schnitzel2k3
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Re: Air Canada Pay
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Last edited by schnitzel2k3 on Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Air Canada Pay
Excuses for the arbitrator? The last arbitrator had all the excuse he needed since the Protecting Air Services Act said they had to select the Final Offer that was best for Air Canada corporate. That literally was the law. Their was no middle ground, no interest based arbitration, it was all or nothing and Air Canada took massive gains.
You make it sound so easy!!! "Just go in there and make your case and get big gains..."
What world are you living in? That's not how it goes, we aren't the teachers union here... yet we're still out in front of the Canadian industry.
And really... didn't you just say:
You make it sound so easy!!! "Just go in there and make your case and get big gains..."
What world are you living in? That's not how it goes, we aren't the teachers union here... yet we're still out in front of the Canadian industry.
And really... didn't you just say:
Yet here you still are...schnitzel2k3 wrote:You don't have to worry about me coming online and bitching in your ear, I've made my bed sir and I'm plenty happy with it.
- schnitzel2k3
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Re: Air Canada Pay
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Last edited by schnitzel2k3 on Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Air Canada Pay
Hahahahahaha.
It amazes me how concerned you are with it all... glad I won't see you on the line - good luck with your corporate flight department.
It amazes me how concerned you are with it all... glad I won't see you on the line - good luck with your corporate flight department.
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Re: Air Canada Pay
An observation from this old codger. Why do chaps make comments on Air Canada’s salary structure when they (a) do not work at that airline (b) explicitly imply they have no desire to do so. If I am reading and understanding from this site correctly Air Canada doesn’t have any issues regarding recruitment, plenty of guys/gals are heading there from some very good operations. Kinda makes the salary dick comparisons mute, seem to me.
Re: Air Canada Pay
Insecurity, I assume. Using pay and schedule as an example, a corporate pilot should STFU about how good they have it because that helps keep their own position more valuable as those around them leave for airlines. I hope it’s not a call for others to join their own martyrdom as a means of effecting a change, because that ain’t happening for a while.