One List

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Hudson90
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Re: One List

Post by Hudson90 »

Stop your whining and drivel! Your embarrassing yourselves. The only one that’s going to lose is you. Your anger towards the WJ pilot group will only backfire. Remember you will have to fly with them sooner our later and your not helping by blaming WJ pilots.. Some were told in mainline ground school years ago, you’ll all be Captains in three years. Did that happen.. No! Shit happens and things change in this industry. Do you think it’s ok for an OTS mainline f/o to be thrown under the bus with a new (changed) agreement. Not going to happen. Point your anger somewhere else. The best out come for you is to start working towards making Encore a place to work. The rest will fall in place. Trust me. You won’t be forgotten. But if you continue to blame the WJ pilots, you’ll have a major headwind in front of you. Be smart. There will be lots of advancement in the near future...it’s up to you how you get there.

Cheers
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Last edited by Hudson90 on Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
Hudson90
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Re: One List

Post by Hudson90 »

Dubble post.
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

Hudson90 wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:37 pmDo you think it’s ok for an OTS mainline f/o to be thrown under the bus with a new (changed) agreement.
Do I think that someone who has spent one year flying the WestJet tail should be thrown under the bus? No. I do believe that their seniority number should be below the person who has spent the last five years flying a WestJet tail.

What you are arguing is that you are better than us just because your props are ducted.
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Impact
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Re: One List

Post by Impact »

Never was a supporter of the "one list" concept in which one carries their WJE DOH to mainline. It wasn't industry standard, and was bound to implode eventually. Was a strong supporter of "flow" however.

Nothing personal against Encore pilots, but expecting to bypass OTS hires at a mainline is not on.
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yvrpilot82
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Re: One List

Post by yvrpilot82 »

Impact wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:15 am Never was a supporter of the "one list" concept in which one carries their WJE DOH to mainline. It wasn't industry standard, and was bound to implode eventually. Was a strong supporter of "flow" however.

Nothing personal against Encore pilots, but expecting to bypass OTS hires at a mainline is not on.
Isn't it? When myself and many of my close friends started at Encore years ago, we were told that was the only way to expect to get to Westjet. But hey, slog it out in the trenches for a few years working 18 days a month getting tossed around at FL250 and you'll be rewarded for your penance down the road.

How nice of you to think that now, we should have those years stripped away from us. But hey, it's "industry standard" so let's treat them the same as the 250 hour new guys that are coming aboard soon at Encore.

Everyone I talk to at Encore just wants some recognition/grandfathering in for the guys who've been on property before this went downhill. I fail to see how that's unreasonable.
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Hudson90
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Re: One List

Post by Hudson90 »

plausiblyannonymous wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:14 am
Hudson90 wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:37 pmDo you think it’s ok for an OTS mainline f/o to be thrown under the bus with a new (changed) agreement.
Do I think that someone who has spent one year flying the WestJet tail should be thrown under the bus? No. I do believe that their seniority number should be below the person who has spent the last five years flying a WestJet tail.

What you are arguing is that you are better than us just because your props are ducted.

Stay positive plausiblyannonymous. Mentor your new f/o and try to make Encore a great place to work. Making room for future WEN pilots will help Movement to mainline. I’m not better then you. Be patient, it will all work out in the end. I look forward to working alongside you and all the Encore team one day soon.

Cheers
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sarg
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Re: One List

Post by sarg »

yvrpilot82 wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:56 am
Impact wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:15 am Never was a supporter of the "one list" concept in which one carries their WJE DOH to mainline. It wasn't industry standard, and was bound to implode eventually. Was a strong supporter of "flow" however.

Nothing personal against Encore pilots, but expecting to bypass OTS hires at a mainline is not on.
Everyone I talk to at Encore just wants some recognition/grandfathering in for the guys who've been on property before this went downhill. I fail to see how that's unreasonable.
So how do you propose to reconcile the grandfathering with the career expectations of those hired since the seniority list change? Which was clearing define as Jan 1, 2019 not later as some have contended.

So, grandfathering promotes the rights of one group of pilots over the same rights of a different group, how do you best recognize the damage done to the rights of the damaged group, whichever group it might be?
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

Gear Jerker wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:27 pm ...I'm glad you said that Encore pilots come across as entitled. This is rhetoric that has been used before, and will no doubt continue to be used.

If one applies for a job, and during the interview they are offered a different job, but it exists in writing that said job contributes to seniority for the job one thought they were applying for, is it then entitled to be upset when the seniority card is pulled away? Is it entitled to continue to fight for it?...
Thank you for your comments and to be fair the feeling of "entitlement" is not particular to one group, rather a phenomenon of our time I suppose. For instance there used to be a time that one had to have thousands of hours, jet experience, college diploma, military background, and still be under 30 to be considered by a major airline in Canada! Times are much better now. And to be fair again, the answer to both your questions would have to be yes and yes! If one can advance one's situation through respectable dialogue and negotiations, why not?

At the same time, one has to be prepared to accept outcomes that may not be to one's liking. Outcomes that are not possible under new labour relations and new ownership. Of course it would be good to maintain some sort of flow, which will help with retention and pilot supply for the corporation and is win-win, although more to the benefit of the company as securing a supply of pilots outweighs pilot aspirations in the current market. This should be preferably without a second interview which distinguishes WestJet group above Air Canada and U.S major airlines.

As others have mentioned, change also brings things that are not to everyone's liking. People that have been through bankruptcies, job changes, forced to work overseas, or even change profession altogether, all have experienced this, often in most humbling ways. Even Encore pilots that flowed just before the new top-up pay are probably feeling a little cheated. Fortunately the industry is in expansion and there are plenty of opportunities. Specifically at WestJet group too, the new arrangement will likely bring many new opportunities soon. Good luck.
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Impact
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Re: One List

Post by Impact »

yvrpilot82 wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:56 am
Impact wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:15 am Never was a supporter of the "one list" concept in which one carries their WJE DOH to mainline. It wasn't industry standard, and was bound to implode eventually. Was a strong supporter of "flow" however.

Nothing personal against Encore pilots, but expecting to bypass OTS hires at a mainline is not on.
Isn't it? When myself and many of my close friends started at Encore years ago, we were told that was the only way to expect to get to Westjet. But hey, slog it out in the trenches for a few years working 18 days a month getting tossed around at FL250 and you'll be rewarded for your penance down the road.

How nice of you to think that now, we should have those years stripped away from us. But hey, it's "industry standard" so let's treat them the same as the 250 hour new guys that are coming aboard soon at Encore.

Everyone I talk to at Encore just wants some recognition/grandfathering in for the guys who've been on property before this went downhill. I fail to see how that's unreasonable.
A grandfathering solution may have legs, and I may be persuaded into something along those lines. What I can say however is that the more I see the entitlement attitude, the less I'm willing to support any solution.

You're not the only one in history who's slogged it out for years working 18 days a month getting tossed around at FL250. Drop the attitude, and we'll talk.
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FlyYYC
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Re: One List

Post by FlyYYC »

The one list was voted down by the group. Is it not the unions job to move in the direction that the group voted for? Was the vote just for show? If the union can't support the group on this issue how will they support on other issues? Keep the guys already on the list there. No more moving forward. Improve working standards at Encore and stop using Mainline as the carrot on the string.
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Gerry Schwartz
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Re: One List

Post by Gerry Schwartz »

FlyYYC wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:27 am The one list was voted down by the group. Is it not the unions job to move in the direction that the group voted for? Was the vote just for show? If the union can't support the group on this issue how will they support on other issues?
Surveys! Surveys! Surveys!

The surveys after the failure of the one list vote in May have indicated that the MEC has a clear mandate to continue seniority transfer.
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FlyYYC
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Re: One List

Post by FlyYYC »

What's the percentage of pilots that completed the survey? Can we get some surveys going on for other issues we don't like? Were these surveys completely anonymous? I'm asking because I did not complete a survey and I was under the impression that a vote was a vote.
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pilotidentity
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Re: One List

Post by pilotidentity »

So pilots were told at the mainline interview they would have mainline seniority if they took a captain spot at wje and that promise was broken? Who wouldn't be upset about that? That is a huge loss! That isn't the same as "you'll be a captain in 3 years".

Telling someone in those shoes that it will all work out in the end sounds positive but falls flat.

Best of luck that this will be made right.
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Gerry Schwartz
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Re: One List

Post by Gerry Schwartz »

FlyYYC wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:09 pm What's the percentage of pilots that completed the survey? Can we get some surveys going on for other issues we don't like? Were these surveys completely anonymous? I'm asking because I did not complete a survey and I was under the impression that a vote was a vote.
90% of pilots completed the survey. The MEC purposely didn't ask you because they don't like you and think you smell.
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

Gerry Schwartz wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:01 pm
FlyYYC wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:27 am The one list was voted down by the group. Is it not the unions job to move in the direction that the group voted for? Was the vote just for show? If the union can't support the group on this issue how will they support on other issues?
Surveys! Surveys! Surveys!

The surveys after the failure of the one list vote in May have indicated that the MEC has a clear mandate to continue seniority transfer.
Then the MEC should share the results of that "survey". The MEC cannot possibly "stand by the pilots' decision", and "continue to negotiate" on its own agenda at the same time! In its emails, it continually contradicts itself. The MEC must serve the membership, not the other way around!
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Gerry Schwartz
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Re: One List

Post by Gerry Schwartz »

cloak wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:03 pm Then the MEC should share the results of that "survey". The MEC cannot possibly "stand by the pilots' decision", and "continue to negotiate" on its own agenda at the same time! In its emails, it continually contradicts itself. The MEC must serve the membership, not the other way around!
Are you daft?

Bravo, let's get the MEC to pinpoint to the company exactly what our pilots want so that when we try to negotiate the company knows exactly where to put pressure. The MEC serves the majority. Did you not get asked your feelings recently either? :goodman:
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

Gerry Schwartz wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:51 pm
cloak wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:03 pm Then the MEC should share the results of that "survey". The MEC cannot possibly "stand by the pilots' decision", and "continue to negotiate" on its own agenda at the same time! In its emails, it continually contradicts itself. The MEC must serve the membership, not the other way around!
Are you daft?

Bravo, let's get the MEC to pinpoint to the company exactly what our pilots want so that when we try to negotiate the company knows exactly where to put pressure. The MEC serves the majority. Did you not get asked your feelings recently either? :goodman:
Oh I see. So the MEC knows best? That's ironic because WJ pilots joined ALPA to move away from papa knows best scenario! The MEC shared in an email on May 10th that it will respect the vote results, and then on the 14th it shared that even though the result was negative, it will continue to negotiate, before there could be any "survey". That doesn't sound very democratic!

And for your information, unions cannot simply follow the will of the majority if it causes harm to another member or members.
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skyhighh
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Re: One List

Post by skyhighh »

I love when mainline pilots talk about the entitlement of Encore pilots. When they got hired they were told by company, their mainline peers, etc... That there was a one list and that after a few years they will flow to mainline with their seniority attached to it. Back then it was the only way to get to mainline as WJ wasn't hiring. So, pilots did it because WJ was where they wanted to be. (Not everyone wants to go to Air Canada).
Since then, flow has stopped multiple times (adding many years at Encore) and their peers at mainline took away the one list because they either can't read or didn't care enough to vote (Not counting the OTS voting no for personal agenda).
Now there is a PTA vote that brings more cash to the mainline pilots, fix the language of the old LOU and provide exactly everything that was "missing" in the old LOU. And what do people say? "Not enough, company is doing something shady, lets vote NO, that will teach them a lesson".
The new PTA gives mainline pilots everything they wanted on the last vote and still, it is not enough! Mainline pilots want to leverage the company, not with their career... but the career of their peers because they think they deserve better. Who is entitled now? Any mainline pilot saying they want to vote NO to help the Encore pilot group is full of cow poop. The Encore pilots are and have been clear on what they want... Which is what they were promised upon hiring by management AND WJ pilots. If the WJ MEC of NC can't negotiate without the leverage of the One List... well maybe these guys should be replaced or the WJ pilots should show more unity towards their MEC/LEC.

As for experience at WJ... this one grinds my gears... Most captain at Encore has 5.000+ hours, extensive 705 experience, flew for many years WJ colors, WJ SOP, WJ passengers... shared all benefits with mainline (How many of the WJ pilots got GREAT profit share, enjoyed a rise of share price at 20% paycheck matched at 100%), while Encore got peanuts... But to the eyes of some WJ pilots they are inexperienced entitled 20 years old... You guys are hiring 2000h pilots.... ANY pilot flowing to mainline from Encore has double that, double the experience and know more about WJ than any OTS. And still you'd rather help the new kid on the block instead of the ones who fought for you, with you and feed your planes. What kind of mentality is that?
And yes Encore will soon be hiring 250h pilots... but by the time they flow to mainline they will have more hours and more experience than any OTS you're hiring now.

Now about SWOOP... Everyone bitch about Swoop and the working conditions there. If the PTA get voted down... what do you think will happen to Encore pilots? Well... they will have no choice but go to Swoop because there is no way the flow reopen to mainline any time soon because of the lack of Captains, the incoming fatigue rules and future duty rigs. By voting NO to the PTA you will shoot yourself in the foot big time...

So to the Cloak, FlyYYC, Impact, etc... stop your uneducated propaganda, stop calling the Encore pilots entitled inexperienced kids and look at yourself in the mirror because the only entitled ones destroying this industry, moral and unity is you. It's not because your plane is slightly bigger than a Q400 that you are better than them. You ONLY fly a 737, I'm sorry but you're not that special. It's an entry level airplane in most countries.

Anyway... No hard feelings, just sad to see how Encore is being treated but I guess it's the industry, always trying to eat their young. The reason why Canadian working conditions are so shitty, airlines know that pilots will turn on each-others for crumbs.
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Re: One List

Post by Gear Jerker »

skyhighh wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:34 am I love when mainline pilots talk about the entitlement of Encore pilots. When they got hired they were told by company, their mainline peers, etc... That there was a one list and that after a few years they will flow to mainline with their seniority attached to it. Back then it was the only way to get to mainline as WJ wasn't hiring. So, pilots did it because WJ was where they wanted to be. (Not everyone wants to go to Air Canada).
Since then, flow has stopped multiple times (adding many years at Encore) and their peers at mainline took away the one list because they either can't read or didn't care enough to vote (Not counting the OTS voting no for personal agenda).
Now there is a PTA vote that brings more cash to the mainline pilots, fix the language of the old LOU and provide exactly everything that was "missing" in the old LOU. And what do people say? "Not enough, company is doing something shady, lets vote NO, that will teach them a lesson".
The new PTA gives mainline pilots everything they wanted on the last vote and still, it is not enough! Mainline pilots want to leverage the company, not with their career... but the career of their peers because they think they deserve better. Who is entitled now? Any mainline pilot saying they want to vote NO to help the Encore pilot group is full of cow poop. The Encore pilots are and have been clear on what they want... Which is what they were promised upon hiring by management AND WJ pilots. If the WJ MEC of NC can't negotiate without the leverage of the One List... well maybe these guys should be replaced or the WJ pilots should show more unity towards their MEC/LEC.

As for experience at WJ... this one grinds my gears... Most captain at Encore has 5.000+ hours, extensive 705 experience, flew for many years WJ colors, WJ SOP, WJ passengers... shared all benefits with mainline (How many of the WJ pilots got GREAT profit share, enjoyed a rise of share price at 20% paycheck matched at 100%), while Encore got peanuts... But to the eyes of some WJ pilots they are inexperienced entitled 20 years old... You guys are hiring 2000h pilots.... ANY pilot flowing to mainline from Encore has double that, double the experience and know more about WJ than any OTS. And still you'd rather help the new kid on the block instead of the ones who fought for you, with you and feed your planes. What kind of mentality is that?
And yes Encore will soon be hiring 250h pilots... but by the time they flow to mainline they will have more hours and more experience than any OTS you're hiring now.

Now about SWOOP... Everyone bitch about Swoop and the working conditions there. If the PTA get voted down... what do you think will happen to Encore pilots? Well... they will have no choice but go to Swoop because there is no way the flow reopen to mainline any time soon because of the lack of Captains, the incoming fatigue rules and future duty rigs. By voting NO to the PTA you will shoot yourself in the foot big time...

So to the Cloak, FlyYYC, Impact, etc... stop your uneducated propaganda, stop calling the Encore pilots entitled inexperienced kids and look at yourself in the mirror because the only entitled ones destroying this industry, moral and unity is you. It's not because your plane is slightly bigger than a Q400 that you are better than them. You ONLY fly a 737, I'm sorry but you're not that special. It's an entry level airplane in most countries.

Anyway... No hard feelings, just sad to see how Encore is being treated but I guess it's the industry, always trying to eat their young. The reason why Canadian working conditions are so shitty, airlines know that pilots will turn on each-others for crumbs.
^^^

“KOBE!!”

This. Great post.

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Bede
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Re: One List

Post by Bede »

skyhighh wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:34 am I love when mainline pilots talk about the entitlement of Encore pilots. When they got hired they were told by company, their mainline peers, etc... That there was a one list and that after a few years they will flow to mainline with their seniority attached to it. Back then it was the only way to get to mainline as WJ wasn't hiring. So, pilots did it because WJ was where they wanted to be. (Not everyone wants to go to Air Canada).
Since then, flow has stopped multiple times (adding many years at Encore) and their peers at mainline took away the one list because they either can't read or didn't care enough to vote (Not counting the OTS voting no for personal agenda).
Now there is a PTA vote that brings more cash to the mainline pilots, fix the language of the old LOU and provide exactly everything that was "missing" in the old LOU. And what do people say? "Not enough, company is doing something shady, lets vote NO, that will teach them a lesson".
The new PTA gives mainline pilots everything they wanted on the last vote and still, it is not enough! Mainline pilots want to leverage the company, not with their career... but the career of their peers because they think they deserve better. Who is entitled now? Any mainline pilot saying they want to vote NO to help the Encore pilot group is full of cow poop. The Encore pilots are and have been clear on what they want... Which is what they were promised upon hiring by management AND WJ pilots. If the WJ MEC of NC can't negotiate without the leverage of the One List... well maybe these guys should be replaced or the WJ pilots should show more unity towards their MEC/LEC.

As for experience at WJ... this one grinds my gears... Most captain at Encore has 5.000+ hours, extensive 705 experience, flew for many years WJ colors, WJ SOP, WJ passengers... shared all benefits with mainline (How many of the WJ pilots got GREAT profit share, enjoyed a rise of share price at 20% paycheck matched at 100%), while Encore got peanuts... But to the eyes of some WJ pilots they are inexperienced entitled 20 years old... You guys are hiring 2000h pilots.... ANY pilot flowing to mainline from Encore has double that, double the experience and know more about WJ than any OTS. And still you'd rather help the new kid on the block instead of the ones who fought for you, with you and feed your planes. What kind of mentality is that?
And yes Encore will soon be hiring 250h pilots... but by the time they flow to mainline they will have more hours and more experience than any OTS you're hiring now.

Now about SWOOP... Everyone bitch about Swoop and the working conditions there. If the PTA get voted down... what do you think will happen to Encore pilots? Well... they will have no choice but go to Swoop because there is no way the flow reopen to mainline any time soon because of the lack of Captains, the incoming fatigue rules and future duty rigs. By voting NO to the PTA you will shoot yourself in the foot big time...

So to the Cloak, FlyYYC, Impact, etc... stop your uneducated propaganda, stop calling the Encore pilots entitled inexperienced kids and look at yourself in the mirror because the only entitled ones destroying this industry, moral and unity is you. It's not because your plane is slightly bigger than a Q400 that you are better than them. You ONLY fly a 737, I'm sorry but you're not that special. It's an entry level airplane in most countries.

Anyway... No hard feelings, just sad to see how Encore is being treated but I guess it's the industry, always trying to eat their young. The reason why Canadian working conditions are so shitty, airlines know that pilots will turn on each-others for crumbs.
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