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Gerry Schwartz
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Re: One List

Post by Gerry Schwartz »

elite wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:33 am Ah, insult the opponent into giving up approach?! A product of the generation of social media; those who lack the social skills to actually engage people into a respectable debate? Perhaps also one of the ones that through threw a hissy fit and banned WestJet pilots into the jumpseat?!
Please accept my apology for the insult. I was back from a red-eye and frustrated.

Encore pilots have always been welcome in my jumpseat. I don't like that there were previously a few reported instances of Encore pilots denying WestJet pilots from the jumpseat. However, after speaking with former co-workers who are now at Encore, I can't completely blame Encore pilots for being upset. For many of them the impact of not having the seniority that they were promised is in the range of hundreds of thousands of dollars. I would not call being upset for possibly losing hundreds of thousands of dollars throughout the course of a career as a "hissy fit".

The frustration I have with your post is that your understanding of history is wrong. Regional airlines flourished in the United States with the deregulation of the airline industry in 1978. Prior to deregulation, airlines were limited on what routes they could fly and what fares they could charge. That changed after 1978. One of the major changes in the industry was that larger carriers turned to the hub and spoke network flying and then created changes. Allegheny Commuter was one of the first regional airlines that flew under a larger carrier. What's disappointing is that back in the late 70s, the pilot unions didn't foresee that vast expansion that mainline airlines would use regional airlines for and gave up their exclusivity of flying for the birth of the modern day scope clause. :oops: :evil: Hindsight is 20/20, but this is one of the most disappointing bargaining decisions in history. It has allowed airlines to whipsaw pilots and compete on lowest cost structures!!!

Fast forward to more recent US airline history, Compass Airlines was originally started in 2007 as a compromise between Northwest Airlines and ALPA. Northwest was in an awful financial position. It wanted ALPA to give on its scope clause to permit 76 seat jets. The pilot union agreed on the condition that Northwest pilots could flow down in the event of a furlough, and Compass pilots could flow up to Northwest. Let me repeat: the flow agreement was put in to benefit pilots!!!

If it were primarily up to the airline, Northwest would have started an entire new regional airline and paid the pilots a pittance. It is amazing how quickly people forget that regional airlines in the US in the mid 2000s paid FOs $22,000 a year and had no problem attracting pilots. It made perfect sense for major airlines to have 50% of their fleets made up of regional jets where pilots were paid 50 cents on the dollar compared to their mainline pilots.

Separate B scales and WAWCON for regional airlines is the SINGLE BIGGEST REASON FOR LOW PILOT SALARIES IN NORTH AMERICA!!! You do not have a solid grasp of the history of the airline industry if you think that a flow agreement will hurt WAWCON in the long run.

I have heard some of my WestJet colleagues say that if they vote NO to the PTA that the company will have to improve working conditions at Encore to attract pilots. This may be true in the short term. But all my former colleagues that went to Encore did so because they eventually want to work at WestJet and the company was not hiring at the time. They were fine flying a turboprop for a bit, but the move was to fly a jet. Too bad, so sad? times change, right?

DO you think Encore pilots will all stay if we screw them over again? They'll leave for AC, Transat, Sunwing, Cargojet, Morningstar, SkyRegional and.... wait for it.... Swoop. Swoop has delayed my career progression already, but why wouldn't an Encore pilot decide to go to Swoop if we take away their seniority? Ya, that's exactly what I want...... 500 well trained pilots wanting to staff Swoop and help it grow because they don't have better options and they're pissed at us. Talk about history repeating itself!! Right back to pilots whipsawing each other again. Swoop has 9 aircraft. They can go to 30 without any increase in fleet size at WestJet.

I am skeptical that you really are "on the sidelines". Having a seniority transfer agreement between a regional airline and a mainline airline is the single best way to have pilot groups pulling in the same direction to prevent whipsawing in the future. I personally think having Swoops WAWCON on OUR former planes is awful for our groups. Let's not make it so Swoop becomes a more attractive option to the Encore pilots. Voting No to this PTA will bite us in the ass.
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mbav8r
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Re: One List

Post by mbav8r »

George Taylor wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:24 pm
WJ pilots have scope but my understanding is Encore can have Jets, I imagine they might now be motivated to take some Jet flying from the mainline pilots.
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Um, Encore pilots have ZERO say in the equipment they operate. That's a few steps above their pay grade. Quit with the threats.
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See the above post about whipsaw by Gerry Schwartz, if I were an Encore pilot and the WJ pilots vote no again, when management comes to me and says, “how much to operate 50 76 seat jets?” Um, I’ll do it for my current pay, thanks!
This won’t affect me in the grand scheme of things, I just can’t believe the shortsightedness and greed on display by what used to be a unified and motivated group of pilots.
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

mbav8r wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:10 pm See the above post about whipsaw by Gerry Schwartz, if I were an Encore pilot and the WJ pilots vote no again, when management comes to me and says, “how much to operate 50 76 seat jets?” Um, I’ll do it for my current pay, thanks!
This won’t affect me in the grand scheme of things, I just can’t believe the shortsightedness and greed on display by what used to be a unified and motivated group of pilots.
When (not if) the company comes to Encore to take flying from mainline (smaller aircraft, less fuel burn, lower crew costs), we can either say yes or tell them that we stand with our mainline brothers and sisters.
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Maxpwr
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Re: One List

Post by Maxpwr »

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Gerry Schwartz
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Re: One List

Post by Gerry Schwartz »

Maxpwr wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:07 am
Who gave you the impression that management would ask the pilots anything? Management dictates what you fly and where you fly it. Simple as that.
Not simple. Read our contract.

While I expect that you haven't read Encore's Contract, haven't you read our contract's section "19 - New Equipment". While the company can say it wants to get a new aircraft type: the pay rates and conditions have to be negotiated with the pilots. A quick favour from my Encore friends shows that they have basically the exact same section in their contract. So what mbav8r says is correct. If the company wants new aircraft at Encore, they need to negotiate pay rates with them.

So while I agree we should all keep the threats to the minimum, you should at least know OUR contract before bitching about a 'threat'. Swoop can expand from 9 to 30 tails with NO WestJet expansion. The company can get 50 more Turboprops or 76 seat jets with NO WestJet expansion. I doubt it would happen, but the company can get 71 MORE airplanes NOT at WestJet without any permission from us. 21 at Swoop's crappy wages and 50 more at whatever the Encore pilots will negotiate with the company. That is a THREAT TO MY CAREER. Ya, let's make it so the company pits the two pilot groups against each other in a situation where the company can grow Swoop by 200% and regional carriers by 100% without any input from US. Again, if we f*@k the Encore pilots by voting no to this PTA, it'll bite us in the ass.
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George Taylor
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Re: One List

Post by George Taylor »

I find it annoying when Encore pilots use the argument, that if the PTA fails, they'll all goto SWOOP and screw the WJ pilots. Don't the same concerns about staffing levels at Encore come into play. The point being WestJet is ignoring the flow from Encore to mainline now. So, WestJet would decimate Encore to fill SWOOP planes? Who knows, but I doubt it. Some bean counter will make the call on that one. And all the OTS hires at Swoop will step over you.
The Encore guys that are so emotional and post on here should really look in the mirror. It's been said many time before, you, the Encore pilot that voted on a CBA that didn't capture flow/PTA were duped. Your reps should never have presented that. Although there has been some good communication about the PTA currently being voted on, it was really sleazy of management to tie WJ pilots compensation to the Encore PTA. Same old dirty tricks from a horrible management team.
It will be an interesting outcome to see how this vote goes. For all the Encore folks that still continue to think it's the bad, mean, and greedy WestJet pilots ruining your flow and seniority , it's NOT. Buck stops with you! You voted in your CBA.
This big ball of shit keeps rolling down the hill, and getting bigger, and bigger, and we're all getting rolled into it.
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Gerry Schwartz
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Re: One List

Post by Gerry Schwartz »

George Taylor wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:56 am I find it annoying when Encore pilots use the argument, that if the PTA fails, they'll all goto SWOOP and screw the WJ pilots. Don't the same concerns about staffing levels at Encore come into play. The point being WestJet is ignoring the flow from Encore to mainline now. So, WestJet would decimate Encore to fill SWOOP planes? Who knows, but I doubt it. Some bean counter will make the call on that one.
I find it annoying that my colleagues think that if this PTA fails everything will stay status quo. IT WON'T!!! I don't work at Encore and I AM saying that if the PTA fails we at WJ will face challenges.The company will take the $10-20 million dollars in increased value that they are offering us for our stock options and find other places to use it for pilot staffing. Some bean counter WILL make the call on that one. Do you honestly think it will be in favour of WJ pilots? Would it be Swoop? Encore? Link? who knows, but I've just outlined the other options they have without needing to include us, 71 regional or Swoop aircraft!!!

I haven't seen too many 'emotional' Encore pilots posting but I've only been reading this thread to deal with my WJ colleagues, presumably newer OTS guys trying to make up BS arguments to make themselves feel justified in voting something solely for their own benefit or because they're pissed off at the company. It'll come back to bite us in the ass.
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Re: One List

Post by elite »

Gerry Schwartz wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:19 pm Please accept my apology for the insult. I was back from a red-eye and frustrated.....
Apology acepted, thank you. There is a different perspective.

The wawcon in the U.S improved because of Colgan crash which brought about changes from the Congrass regarding license requirements. It had nothing to do with deregulation, pilot solidarity, or union work. In fact ALPA was all too happy to represent the folks that were making 20k in the regionals.

Pilots may as well accept what is in the CBAs, as things that will happen. That is to say including other things at Swoop, there will be up to 50 RJs outside WJ. If it's in the CBA, it's already been priced in by Onex. So Encore folks threatening WJ folks has zero value. It is going to happen and my guess is depending on the kind of reaction Encore pilots show if the vote is rejected, those RJs may or may not go to them. It is possible that Onex will want to diversify its regional assets anyway.

And voting for the one list will be bad for wawcon because the company can leverage that to pay Encore pilots less. In the long run though, it will tie the company's hands in recruitment and create a seniority that is not in line with experience. It will be bad even for Encore guys because even though they are placed ahead of WJ guys that are currently flying the jets, and let's face it, which pilot doesn't like that, it will limit their flow to 90 per year and slow their flow and career progress. Due to operational ristrictions, the company will delay their flow saying not to worry, you already got your number. But they won't start their YOS. In essence the company is giving from pilot seniority, which doesn't belong to it, instead of paying them.

If one looks at this deal without thinking about individuals that are attached to it and judges it by itself, it becomes clear, for reasons mentioned, that it is not good for the industry and the pilots and will vote it down.

At the same time, even voting the one list down doesn't mean no flow for Encore, it just means to the BOTL like all other ALPA-represented airlines. My understanding is that they have guaranteed flow and top up pay, which is better than most other airlines.
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Re: One List

Post by sarg »

elite wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:35 pm

And voting for the one list will be bad for wawcon because the company can leverage that to pay Encore pilots less. In the long run though, it will tie the company's hands in recruitment and create a seniority that is not in line with experience. It will be bad even for Encore guys because even though they are placed ahead of WJ guys that are currently flying the jets, and let's face it, which pilot doesn't like that, it will limit their flow to 90 per year and slow their flow and career progress. Due to operational ristrictions, the company will delay their flow saying not to worry, you already got your number. But they won't start their YOS. In essence the company is giving from pilot seniority, which doesn't belong to it, instead of paying them.

At the same time, even voting the one list down doesn't mean no flow for Encore, it just means to the BOTL like all other ALPA-represented airlines. My understanding is that they have guaranteed flow and top up pay, which is better than most other airlines.
You have that right the flow will be limited to the max 90/year, while the pilot supply is tight. In the meantime 300+ will be hired this year and probably 200+ next year meaning 300+ OTS pilots that will be disadvantaged by the PTA continuing, especially if the next CBA goes to full seniority bidding.

If the PTA passes I predict that it will continue to be a sore point and a divisive issue for years to come and most likely an item that continues to be brought up at LEC meetings to force cancelation.
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

sarg wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:35 pm
elite wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:35 pm

And voting for the one list will be bad for wawcon because the company can leverage that to pay Encore pilots less. In the long run though, it will tie the company's hands in recruitment and create a seniority that is not in line with experience. It will be bad even for Encore guys because even though they are placed ahead of WJ guys that are currently flying the jets, and let's face it, which pilot doesn't like that, it will limit their flow to 90 per year and slow their flow and career progress. Due to operational ristrictions, the company will delay their flow saying not to worry, you already got your number. But they won't start their YOS. In essence the company is giving from pilot seniority, which doesn't belong to it, instead of paying them.

At the same time, even voting the one list down doesn't mean no flow for Encore, it just means to the BOTL like all other ALPA-represented airlines. My understanding is that they have guaranteed flow and top up pay, which is better than most other airlines.
You have that right the flow will be limited to the max 90/year, while the pilot supply is tight. In the meantime 300+ will be hired this year and probably 200+ next year meaning 300+ OTS pilots that will be disadvantaged by the PTA continuing, especially if the next CBA goes to full seniority bidding.

If the PTA passes I predict that it will continue to be a sore point and a divisive issue for years to come and most likely an item that continues to be brought up at LEC meetings to force cancelation.
So, basically what you are saying is that if Encore gets the PTA, new hires at mainline will be pissed off that people who were hired at the company before them are more senior than them?
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George Taylor
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Re: One List

Post by George Taylor »

It's not the same company, and it's two different bargaining units.
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Re: One List

Post by citizenbanana »

Encore and WestJet are seperate companies.
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Re: One List

Post by Yycjetdriver »

plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:04 pm
sarg wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:35 pm
elite wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:35 pm

And voting for the one list will be bad for wawcon because the company can leverage that to pay Encore pilots less. In the long run though, it will tie the company's hands in recruitment and create a seniority that is not in line with experience. It will be bad even for Encore guys because even though they are placed ahead of WJ guys that are currently flying the jets, and let's face it, which pilot doesn't like that, it will limit their flow to 90 per year and slow their flow and career progress. Due to operational ristrictions, the company will delay their flow saying not to worry, you already got your number. But they won't start their YOS. In essence the company is giving from pilot seniority, which doesn't belong to it, instead of paying them.

At the same time, even voting the one list down doesn't mean no flow for Encore, it just means to the BOTL like all other ALPA-represented airlines. My understanding is that they have guaranteed flow and top up pay, which is better than most other airlines.
You have that right the flow will be limited to the max 90/year, while the pilot supply is tight. In the meantime 300+ will be hired this year and probably 200+ next year meaning 300+ OTS pilots that will be disadvantaged by the PTA continuing, especially if the next CBA goes to full seniority bidding.

If the PTA passes I predict that it will continue to be a sore point and a divisive issue for years to come and most likely an item that continues to be brought up at LEC meetings to force cancelation.
So, basically what you are saying is that if Encore gets the PTA, new hires at mainline will be pissed off that people who were hired at the company before them are more senior than them?
When they say “Westjet group of COMPANIES” in job adds, company website, pilot handbook and employment contracts they really mean it.
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Gerry Schwartz
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Re: One List

Post by Gerry Schwartz »

elite wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:35 pm
The wawcon in the U.S improved because of Colgan crash which brought about changes from the Congrass regarding license requirements. It had nothing to do with deregulation, pilot solidarity, or union work. In fact ALPA was all too happy to represent the folks that were making 20k in the regionals.
There's a great book called Hard Landing: The Epic Contest for Power and Profits That Plunged the Airlines into Chaos by Thomas Petzinger, Jr. https://books.google.ca/books?id=GF5GZa ... r_versions It provides a very interesting and detailed history about pilot/union relations as well as the growth of regional airlines and the impact deregulation has had on the industry. In particular, you'll see repeating history of how, with the separation of mainline and regional flying, airlines are able to whipsaw business. It's just a start, but would really help you understand the complexities of how we got here today.

While I agree, the unfortunate Colgan crash and the public response thereafter was a factor for today's pilot staffing issues and increased WAWCON's in the US. The primary factor is demographics and supply/demand. Major airlines are facing more retirements in the next ten years than there currently are pilots flying at all the regionals combined.

Without the proper historical understanding of how the Industry got to the position it was in after 3407, trying to dispute your claims is really like trying to argue with someone that the moon landing was faked. They take the position because of a certain shadow in the black and white film footage while they complete ignore the history of the space race and NASA development altogether and that there were tens of thousands of people directly involved in the launches.

While I do query your 'standing on the sidelines' status as you indicate you have read both contracts, it is unfortunately clear that you do not have a full grasp of the situation.
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Re: One List

Post by elite »

sarg wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:35 pm You have that right the flow will be limited to the max 90/year, while the pilot supply is tight. In the meantime 300+ will be hired this year and probably 200+ next year meaning 300+ OTS pilots that will be disadvantaged by the PTA continuing, especially if the next CBA goes to full seniority bidding.

If the PTA passes I predict that it will continue to be a sore point and a divisive issue for years to come and most likely an item that continues to be brought up at LEC meetings to force cancelation.
Contrast that with Encore that will quite likely be hiring cadets next year. Do the cadets really need to be on WestJet's seniority list to be hired at Encore!? This PTA will be a disaster if passed.

Although seemingly the company wins, because it will continue to be able to attract pilots to Encore at below industry level wages, in the long run it will create such a headache for itself by helping create a seniority list that is NOT in line with experience. It will create years of problem. It will also find recruitment at mainline very difficult with the elephant of seniority in the room and the prospect of very long years to upgrade. Why would anyone with experience want to come to WestJet and sit behind 600 cadets (no offense) when they have so many choices? So the company will lose in the long run.

Encore pilots also seemingly win to get a seniority number at another company, but will take much longer to actually get there and start their years of service and higher pay. At a rate of maximum 90 per year it will take the last guy over 6 or 7 years to get to WestJet! Then they'll have seniority over the folks that have actually been working there all these years, but years behind them in pay! More senior to bid for upgrade, but don't have the skills and experience. It will be problematic.

WestJet pilots will not only retard the progress of the FOs they fly with right now to the benefit of pilots in another company, they will help lower the industry standard in general by approving this PTA. What do WestJet pilots get out of this that wasn't already theirs?!!
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

I believe that this issue requires a fresh approach.

The reasons for which Encore was created as a separate company have not changed, perhaps even strengthened with Onex. And being two separate companies and bargaining units, and the challenges and divergence of the recruitments will make reserved seniority for Encore pilots at WestJet, such as this proposed PTA, very problematic and contentious going forward. Therefore, I believe that it will behoove all parties, corporation, WS/WO MEC, and EN MEC, to abandon this PTA and instead find ways to establish:

1- 100% flow for Encore pilots or bypass pay and seniority for every pilot the company has to hire directly for operational reasons.
2- Full (settle on portion) years of service for Encore pilots. Another option would be a bonus like most U.S carriers
3- Seniority as date of hire into WestJet to BOTL, which is in line with experience in the company.
4- Guaranteed flow for Encore pilots.

Although given that Encore will be hiring Cadets soon, the company would be wise to agree to grandfather guaranteed flow for the existing Encore pilots, but implement second interview for new-hires to ensure their suitability.

That will be a viable and lasting solution.
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Gerry Schwartz
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Re: One List

Post by Gerry Schwartz »

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elite
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Re: One List

Post by elite »

Gerry Schwartz wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:15 pm Ok, now you're just trying to suck and blow at the same time.
....
90% of the Encore pilots on property had a seniority number at WestJet. This was promised to them as part of an employment contract and it was IN the previous contract. It was further promised by our MEC. And even after the failed LOA vote in May, it was promised again...

... Unlike this alternate reality that you seem to be living in, pretty much all of the Encore Captains on property (and few I'm really good friends with)...
Next you're basically pulling numbers out of your ass - WTF - 600 Cadets!!...
Perhaps another red-eye flight for you?!!

Stop disrespecting people and learn how to advocate for your position without attacking and insulting others. Like your handle for instance!

And it is a figure of speech. If they are hiring cadets and continue to expand Encore (provisions of CBA which by the way is a public document) it won't be long before there are a few hundred cadets at Encore. Why do those cadets (whatever the number) need to be put on WestJet's seniority list? Air Canada doesn't do that. Air Canada doesn't even guarantee their flow. Why should WestJet be so desperate?

And why should they be grandfathered? The conditions of employment for those Encore pilots changed with certification, so it did for WestJet pilots. Why is it more important to protect them at all costs?

As for "YOUR" stock options, not to worry it is enshrined in the CBA (again a public document) that it has to replaced by another method of equal value. And agreements such as this, mask the real pilot shortage by supplying unlimited number of cadets through the system, so WAWCON not only at Encore but also at WestJet won't have to improve anytime soon.

However, your comments raise a question: Why is "YOUR" MEC making promises to pilots in another bargaining unit and advocating for them? Especially when it directly harms the careers of its own members that are paying dues? Frankly I'm surprised some have not been recalled yet!
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Gerry Schwartz
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Re: One List

Post by Gerry Schwartz »

voting closed
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Re: One List

Post by elite »

Gerry Schwartz wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:08 am ...I'm sure you're a nice young fellow/lady...
Don't need your patronizing ace! Although I do feel very young after decades of flying around the world, and serving as union executive at times. Good luck with your flow!
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