New North Star Basler Accident (Number 3)

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bald seagull
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by bald seagull »

Old fella wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:41 pm
digits_ wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:18 am
Illya Kuryakin wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:01 am Is it just me, or do the ads that pop up between every post make this site almost unusable?
Not just you. Long loading times and way too much battery and data usage as well. It is becoming expensive to use this website.
I run Ad Blocker Pro which loads through Safari on my IPad and works great as I don’t get those annoying ads on this site. I use Safari all the time from the iPad and blocks ads and unwanted info from other sites as well.
What does any of this have to do with the Basler accident??
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Mick G
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by Mick G »

Its what happened on the flight deck.....they were inundated with this pop up advertising when they lost situational awarness and put her in the trees.
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Victory wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:14 am If they weren't aligned with the runway maybe airframe icing and loss of control were a factor again.
Nope. Just hit the ground while wandering around trying to orientate themselves. Tops weren't high, and an RB67 can easily handle inflight ice. The other one was surface contamination picked up before takeoff. The DC3 wing is perhaps the most unforgiving in the industry for this type of contamination.
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Jean-Pierre
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by Jean-Pierre »

Are these aircraft GPS equip? How can they be 300m off course?
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Jean-Pierre wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:38 pm Are these aircraft GPS equip? How can they be 300m off course?
Because they weren't doing an approach. They were trying to land looking out the window? Wasn't there.
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valleyboy
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by valleyboy »

The other one was surface contamination picked up before takeoff.
That was never confirmed, NTSB came up with that because they could not explain it. No proof of contamination was found. I still believe there was another cause.

The Basler conversion has some ugly characteristics. It will carry a shit load of ice but even clean does not have great handling characteristics for circling loaded. It is very easy to end up with an aft C of G when carrying groceries and general freight. Thus adds to handing issues. Add a little ice and the issues just keep getting worse. If anything comes out of this, a lesson to all, CIRCLING is bad and likely the most dangerous maneuver commercial aircraft ever do. It's outdated with the introduction of GPS and no need to circle in IMC A VFR circuit is not the same.
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Dry Guy
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by Dry Guy »

I don't think the TSB did an investigation of that takeoff crash. Has anyone heard if they are going to be investigating this one?
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yhz41
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by yhz41 »

Old fella wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:41 pm
digits_ wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:18 am
Illya Kuryakin wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:01 am Is it just me, or do the ads that pop up between every post make this site almost unusable?
Not just you. Long loading times and way too much battery and data usage as well. It is becoming expensive to use this website.
I run Ad Blocker Pro which loads through Safari on my IPad and works great as I don’t get those annoying ads on this site. I use Safari all the time from the iPad and blocks ads and unwanted info from other sites as well.
While we're on the subject, anyone know the name of a good ad blocker for android? This website is unbearable.
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iflyforpie
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by iflyforpie »

Circling approaches are quickly becoming extinct. The last couple revisions of the CAP and RCAP have removed almost all of them. We’re running out of places to do them for PPC purposes.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
mbav8r
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by mbav8r »

https://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-an ... oke-EN.pdf
NOTICE OF CHANGE
Revoke the Lines of circling minima on instrument approach procedures National
NAV CANADA, the country's provider of civil air navigation services, conducted an assessment of the Circling Minima for Instrument Approach Procedures (IAPs) at the 4 Major International Airports and at 11 International Commercial Flight Aerodromes. Additionally, the circling procedures were assessed at other airports based on the criteria below.
The assessment concluded that circling approaches are not flown by most customers who prefer to fly straight-in Area Navigation (RNAV) approaches. The Transportation Safety Board has indicated that unstable approaches including step downs and circling continue to contribute to incidents and accidents
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

valleyboy wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:19 pm
The other one was surface contamination picked up before takeoff.
That was never confirmed, NTSB came up with that because they could not explain it. No proof of contamination was found. I still believe there was another cause.

The Basler conversion has some ugly characteristics. It will carry a shit load of ice but even clean does not have great handling characteristics for circling loaded. It is very easy to end up with an aft C of G when carrying groceries and general freight. Thus adds to handing issues. Add a little ice and the issues just keep getting worse. If anything comes out of this, a lesson to all, CIRCLING is bad and likely the most dangerous maneuver commercial aircraft ever do. It's outdated with the introduction of GPS and no need to circle in IMC A VFR circuit is not the same.
Of course it was never confirmed by NTSB. They would have t get there before the surface melted.....or was cleaned off. Pretty likely though considering the conditions were perfect for it.....and the results were textbook. I’ll stick with it as a cause. Had it happen myself. Made it down safely.....but I was empty. As for your comments on circling in IMC. Yup. 100% with you on that one. If you can’t see enough to work with doing a straight in RNAV approach, take the whole thing home and try tmrw.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by goingnowherefast »

Sachigo has LPV to both ends of the runway. Why the hell would they be circling? The charts for Sachigo as of December 5th also no longer list circling minimums.

...but you have to actually follow the charts, otherwise all bets are off.
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by valleyboy »

Simple explanation - uncontrolled airspace
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lownslow
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by lownslow »

goingnowherefast wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:40 pm Sachigo has LPV to both ends of the runway. Why the hell would they be circling?
Easy, you hit minima and the ground is in sight but the airport is not. By the time you realize you were looking in the wrong place and do get the runway visual you’re too high to just slam it in so you figure you can make a quick, low circuit and be hopping out of the plane in five minutes. I’m not saying it’s safe and I’m not saying it’s unsafe, there’s a time and a place and a right way to do it... if that’s even what happened here.

I wonder, if Sachigo no longer permits circling but you pop out of cloud into conditions that you deem VFR, can you freely maneuver around the airport as required before landing?
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by digits_ »

lownslow wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:50 pm
goingnowherefast wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:40 pm Sachigo has LPV to both ends of the runway. Why the hell would they be circling?
Easy, you hit minima and the ground is in sight but the airport is not. By the time you realize you were looking in the wrong place and do get the runway visual you’re too high to just slam it in so you figure you can make a quick, low circuit and be hopping out of the plane in five minutes. I’m not saying it’s safe and I’m not saying it’s unsafe, there’s a time and a place and a right way to do it... if that’s even what happened here.
When would be the time and the place, or the right way to continue an LPV approach beyond minima with only the ground in sight and not the airport/runway?
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goingnowherefast
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by goingnowherefast »

lownslow wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:50 pm
goingnowherefast wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:40 pm Sachigo has LPV to both ends of the runway. Why the hell would they be circling?
Easy, you hit minima and the ground is in sight but the airport is not. By the time you realize you were looking in the wrong place and do get the runway visual you’re too high to just slam it in so you figure you can make a quick, low circuit and be hopping out of the plane in five minutes. I’m not saying it’s safe and I’m not saying it’s unsafe, there’s a time and a place and a right way to do it... if that’s even what happened here.

I wonder, if Sachigo no longer permits circling but you pop out of cloud into conditions that you deem VFR, can you freely maneuver around the airport as required before landing?
You're right it is easy. If the runway isn't in sight, you follow the missed approach procedure. If you aren't willing to say it's unsafe, then I will. Circling manouvers are unsafe, that's why they're being removed. The time and place to make a quick circuit is when the weather is 1000' and 3 miles or better.
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2112
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by 2112 »

This is ridiculous, It's absolutely unsafe to circle because you have ground contact only (I knew a guy who used to say shit like that but he's dead now). If you don't have any of the required visual references then go missed, or be a tool and hero a Basler into the rhubarb.
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lownslow
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by lownslow »

That’s some quality cherry picking. At no point did I say what you folks took from that.
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Capt. Underpants
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by Capt. Underpants »

lownslow wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:30 pm That’s some quality cherry picking. At no point did I say what you folks took from that.
Horse hockey. Read what you said again, it's as plain as day.
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dogfood
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Re: New North Star Basler Accident

Post by dogfood »

I’m not saying it’s safe but Tc has approved these operators for Vfr at 300 feet and 1 mile. You could get down to minimums get ground contact but not the runway and continue vfr.
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