One List

[hurtin'albertan]

Perhaps another red-eye flight for you?!!

Stop disrespecting people and learn how to advocate for your position without attacking and insulting others. Like your handle for instance!

Nope, this time my response wasn't based on being fatigued but rather the frustration due to the absolutely non-nonsensical idiotic nature of your argument. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you're a nice young fellow/lady and we'd get along great if we were on a pairing, but your argument lacks any type of coherent reasoning, it really is like arguing with someone about the moon landing.

However, against my better judgment, I will comment on each of your rebuttal comments.

As for "YOUR" stock options, not to worry it is enshrined in the CBA (again a public document) that it has to replaced by another method of equal value. And agreements such as this, mask the real pilot shortage by supplying unlimited number of cadets through the system, so WAWCON not only at Encore but also at WestJet won't have to improved anytime soon.

You don't understand how stock options are valued. Because stock options are a risk related investment, the value that the stock option is granted doesn't translate into what they would be worth as cash. Case in point, prior to being purchased by Onex, we had an choice to either take the value of the option or a significantly lower (by thousands of dollars) guaranteed cash payout value. As part of the PTA negotiations, the MEC was able to negotiate a significantly higher full value for the cash value of our stock options. We are getting MORE than what we are entitled to in the CBA. It is a benefit for the WJ pilots in the range of $10-$20 million over the life of our contract. That is definitely MORE than we were already entitled to. SO, while there IS a discussion as to whether that increased compensation is worth it for some pilots to vote for the PTA (some feel they want more), to suggest that "we are already owed that value" OR "it's a method of equal value" is simply WRONG.

And it is a figure of speech. If they are hiring cadets and continue to expand Encore (provisions of CBA which by the way is a public document) it won't be long before there are a few hundred cadets at Encore. Why do those cadets (whatever the number) need to be put on WestJet's seniority list? Air Canada doesn't do that. Air Canada doesn't even guarantee their flow. Why should WestJet be so desperate?

Hyperbole is a figure of speech. Suggesting that there will be 600 cadets at a 500 pilot airline is an overactive imagination. Regardless, let's think about who actually transfers to WestJet. It's not the new FOs, it's the Captains that have been on the Q for years and have thousands of overs on a 705 machine now.

And comparing to Air Canada is a moot endeavour. It's not like Encore pilots want something they never had, unlike Jazz/GGN/Sky Encore pilots had seniority transfer.

And why should they be grandfathered? The conditions of employment for those Encore pilots changed with certification, so it did for WestJet pilots. Why is it more important to protect them at all costs?

However, your comments raise a question: Why is "YOUR" MEC making promises to pilots in another bargaining unit and advocating for them? Especially when it directly harms the careers of its own members that are paying dues? Frankly I'm surprised some have not been recalled yet!

So again, you do not understand how union representation works and seem to not understand the situation of both how we got here and what will happen if we screw over the Encore pilots.

My MEC was making promises based on the mandate given to them by the majority of WJ pilots. Through multiple surveys, polls and discussions, our MEC has been given a mandate that supports seniority transfer for the Encore pilots. Yes, some vocal folks are against it, but the MEC has done its research to find that the majority of WJ pilots are in favour of it in some form or another. That is the information "promises" that were made. As a result, many Encore pilots such as a few really good friends of mine, decided to remain at Encore.

I love how folks shout out "recall" when they don't even know the mechanism to have an LEC or MEC member recalled.

No one has said "protect them at all costs" - again, that's an improper use of hyperbole. However, in this situation, there are reasons on the opposite end of the spectrum as to why we should vote YES for this PTA and restore the previous seniority transfer provisions that the Encore pilots had. I repeat, this isn't 'giving' them something new.

As discussed above, almost all of the current Encore Captains were hired at a time when WJ was not doing much hiring. Many of my friends had applied to WestJet and were then asked if they would be willing to go to Encore as a DEC or a quick upgrade FO but they would get seniority at WestJet. They made important life decisions based on this. They had the seniority number given to them. All OTS hires that came to WJ between 2013 and May 14, 2019 knew that seniority transfer was part of the deal at WJ. To then say "nah, I think it's in my own self interest to now take that away from Encore pilots" is pretty shallow. It's like the home owner buying a house at the end of the runway of an airport that's been there for decades only to then start complaining about the airplane noise and try and get the airport shut down. It's dirty and, in my opinion, unethical. (Now to be clear, I also know plenty OTS hires who want seniority transfer and understand what they signed up for - I am by NO means saying all OTS folks want this or are unethical).

But, let's take ethics out of it. Who cares right? Everyone should just do what's best for them. F&%k the other guys!

What do you think Encore pilots will do if WE screw them again? Do you think they'll just say "aw shucks, I wish those awesome jet pilots would have been nicer to me? They're right, those new 2000 hour OTS pilots definitely are more skilled than me with my 5000 Hours + PIC Q time."

NO! Of course not - they'll either bail somewhere else or give their MEC a mandate to negotiate against the position of WJ pilots. There is a significant amount of growth opportunity that they can exploit that would reduce our career options at WJ.

The fact of the matter is I want my namesake (who I respect and think is a shrewd business man btw) to sign off on more 787s for us. The more growth at the high end of our airline the better it is for all of our career growth. They need the Qs to fill the 787s though. Do you really think there's a market just from Calgary to do YYC to FCO next summer? No, a huge percentage of those passengers are coming to YYC on the Qs and transferring to the wide bodies. We are at a critical time in our growth at WJ yet already having some challenges staffing Encore. A NO vote would cripple them. Would they raise the WAWCON at Encore in the short term, maybe. But why would WJ/Onex take a risk of buying 10 more 787s when a reliable regional feed is in question? Next, the Swoop president commented last week that he could see the ULCC market in Canada being 30-50 aircraft. Suddenly you have dozens of Encore FOs going - "hey, Swoop seems like a good option now".

Alright I think that's enough for me. There's a reason I only previously read posts and didn't post. Again, I'm sorry if you felt insulted. I wasn't insulting you personally, just your sh*tty arguments. This vote has pretty significant consequences on my career progression and to have someone "on the sidelines" making nonsensical arguments with no repercussions to him or herself gets me extremely frustrated. Not only does this vote have the potential of literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in career earnings for my friends at Encore, it has significant indirect consequences of whether I'll actually get to be a 787 Capt during my time at WJ.

The last few years have been difficult and frustrating. The company has been incredibly stubborn and our previous Execs seemed to go out of their way to simply piss off the pilots. We're slowly making the turn around. This PTA won't solve everything, but it gets the pilot groups pulling in the same direction again. This is key. So if you are on the sidelines, you should think twice before you start getting upset when I tell you that you don't know what you're talking about.

Nailed it.

[elite]

Some seem to not truly understand the meaning of whipsaw effect in the context of airlines.

Encore has had the greatest whipsaw effect on WestJet. There are hardly any flights in the Eastern or Western triangle that are on WestJet anymore. Air Canada operates some flights on wide body aircraft, meanwhile the only choice on WestJet group is a noisy Dash8 most times. While their MEC was so focused on Swoop, it lost another 50 tails to Encore or another airline like it.

What impact would this PTA have on pay at Encore or those 50 RJs? Instead of forcing the airline to pay industry wawcon for Encore and make it less attractive for them to take jobs away from mainline, this PTA will all but guarantee those 50 jets end-up at Encore. Why wouldn't they want to put them there, pay them a fraction of industry standard, and give them WestJet seniority numbers to boot too! Yes nailed it, rock on boys!!

[sstaurus]

Well if you vote this down, any money that would have been spent at mainline (read option value) will get sent to Encore instead. What a nice gift for the Encore pilots... I knew you OTS guys were really a bunch of softies concerned for the well being of others!

[mel gibson]

Careers section of,

Aircanada.com

We need all of you.

[Gerry Schwartz]

.

[FlyingMonkey]

Some seem to not truly understand the meaning of whipsaw effect in the context of airlines.

Encore has had the greatest whipsaw effect on WestJet. There are hardly any flights in the Eastern or Western triangle that are on WestJet anymore. Air Canada operates some flights on wide body aircraft, meanwhile the only choice on WestJet group is a noisy Dash8 most times. While their MEC was so focused on Swoop, it lost another 50 tails to Encore or another airline like it.

What impact would this PTA have on pay at Encore or those 50 RJs? Instead of forcing the airline to pay industry wawcon for Encore and make it less attractive for them to take jobs away from mainline, this PTA will all but guarantee those 50 jets end-up at Encore. Why wouldn't they want to put them there, pay them a fraction of industry standard, and give them WestJet seniority numbers to boot too! Yes nailed it, rock on boys!!

Can I ask what you are referring to when you say industry standard? Who is the benchmark for the “standard” in Canada for regional flying? Jazz, Porter? You think their wawcon are head and shoulders above Encore? I don’t believe so..Do you believe that if the PTA fails Encore pilots can now suddenly leverage the company for the same wawcon that our brothers and sister at WJ have? Or AC?

As someone who currently works at Encore, believe me when I say that if this PTA fails again then the stability and future for Encore is in jeopardy.

[Bede]

+1 Gerry Schwartz.

The options plan is at the discretion of the board. The company would have been within their right to say that WJ pilots get the cash value for options (just like they gave us RSU's). There is a good chance that the arbitrator would not have awarded us this much in cash.

[elite]

Well if you vote this down, any money that would have been spent at mainline (read option value) will get sent to Encore instead. What a nice gift for the Encore pilots... I knew you OTS guys were really a bunch of softies concerned for the well being of others!

Oh yes, them "OTS" guys! You forget before Encore, EVERYONE at WestJet was OTS! Funny how Encore has become the touchstone of piloting at WestJet! Not only did it whipsaw WestJet, it did it at what was it 60%? 70%? industry standard (meaning Jazz, Porter and Sky regional), and getting on WestJet seniority too! If WestJet pilots want to fix that, it's not through this PTA, which is not only bad for them, but also Encore pilots and the corporation, in different ways.

For WestJet pilots, it will mask pilot shortage and make bargaining difficult. The supply of low experience pilots that are likely to be coming through cadet programs through Encore and other airlines clearly won't mind making less money, if they get a "WestJet seniority". It will put WestJet pilots in a very weak and precarious bargaining position. Ask yourselves this question. If you were opposing Swoop so much, why is it that you're allowing even a greater threat, because it is even lower cost and has the ability to add another 50 small jets? Where do you think those jets are going to fly? And then to give them your seniority numbers too? Wow! How can a WestJet captain put pilots in a different company and bargaining unit ahead of their FOs for upgrade, never mind that they often are quite younger and less experienced? Someone is letting you down, or following a different agenda than advancing your cause. And then insulting your integrity to tie this bad deal to your options. As for the options, the essence is in the CBA, you need to have someone that can bargain better!

For great majority of Encore pilots this agreement means very long wait. While those that flow this year or next would be pushing for this proposal to have a better seniority number at WestJet, for the rest of you it means waiting much longer to actually flow and start getting your years of service and making more money. What benefit is a seniority number if it you can't actually use it? It is much better to negotiate for a better contract, paying you industry standard now, and flowing you much faster. It's easier to argue for that because it is tied to your growth and getting a better seniority number, as opposed to being told you have your seniority number, but will have to wait 7-8 years to flow.

And it is bad for the corporation because it puts seniority out of step with actual experience in the company. It creates a toxic work environment that is not worth all the savings, because pilots with higher seniority will not have enough experience at WestJet to actually upgrade. Take the example of Jazz and AC. Reserved seniority numbers with another company simply doesn't work; that's why no other airlines, including the ALPA ones do it. The corporation would be better off, recruiting partially through a cadet program at reduced cost who will be happy to have the opportunity and go through the system, but still has the ability to hire directly if it needs to shore up the experience level. Seniority will simply be based on date of hire into the bargaining unit, as it should.

[Impact]

Well if you vote this down, any money that would have been spent at mainline (read option value) will get sent to Encore instead. What a nice gift for the Encore pilots... I knew you OTS guys were really a bunch of softies concerned for the well being of others!

Oh yes, them "OTS" guys! You forget before Encore, EVERYONE at WestJet was OTS! Funny how Encore has become the touchstone of piloting at WestJet! Not only did it whipsaw WestJet, it did it at what was it 60%? 70%? industry standard (meaning Jazz, Porter and Sky regional), and getting on WestJet seniority too! If WestJet pilots want to fix that, it's not through this PTA, which is not only bad for them, but also Encore pilots and the corporation, in different ways.

For WestJet pilots, it will mask pilot shortage and make bargaining difficult. The supply of low experience pilots that are likely to be coming through cadet programs through Encore and other airlines clearly won't mind making less money, if they get a "WestJet seniority". It will put WestJet pilots in a very weak and precarious bargaining position. Ask yourselves this question. If you were opposing Swoop so much and were willing to go on strike to stop it, why is it that you're allowing even a greater threat, because it is even lower cost and has the ability to add another 50 small jets? Where do you think those jets are going to fly? And then to give them your seniority numbers too? Wow! If I were a WestJet captain, I would find it very difficult to put pilots in a different company and bargaining unit ahead of my FOs for upgrade, never mind that they often are quite younger and less experienced. Someone is letting you down, or following a different agenda than advancing your cause. And then insulting your integrity to tie this bad deal to your options. As for the options, the essence is in the CBA, you need to have someone that can bargain better!

For great majority of Encore pilots this agreement means very long wait. While those that flow this year or next would be pushing for this proposal to have a better seniority number at WestJet, for the rest of you it means waiting much longer to actually flow and start getting your years of service and making more money. What benefit is a seniority number if it you can't actually use it? It is much better to negotiate for a better contract, paying you industry standard now, and flowing you much faster. It's easier to argue for that because it is tied to your growth and getting a better seniority number, as opposed to being told you have your seniority number, but will have to wait 7-8 years to flow.

And it is bad for the corporation because it puts seniority out of step with actual experience in the company. It creates a toxic work environment that is not worth all the savings, because pilots with higher seniority will not have enough experience at WestJet to actually upgrade. Take the example of Jazz and AC. Reserved seniority numbers with another company simply doesn't work; that's why no other airlines, including the ALPA ones do it. The corporation would be better off, saving money through a cadet program at much reduced cost, who will go through the system, but still has the ability to hire directly if it needs to shore up the experience level.

Nailed it!

Once again, I don't have an issue with flow, but to transfer ones DOH from a regional to a mainline is not only contrary to industry standard, it's counterproductive. Look at the mess it's already created. I hope those who pushed for this one-list concept in the beginning, now have enough humility to see the errors of their ways.

[Yycjetdriver]

At this point all this arguing is pointless, the vote closes this week and I’d guess the majority of pilots have cast their votes already.
In the mean time, transat, sunwing, AC are all probably better companies to work for, so there’s better carrots to chase.

[skyhighh]

Once again, I don't have an issue with flow, but to transfer ones DOH from a regional to a mainline is not only contrary to industry standard, it's counterproductive. Look at the mess it's already created. I hope those who pushed for this one-list concept in the beginning, now have enough humility to see the errors of their ways.

Once again, someone doesn't seem to get it. The one list + flow is a great idea. You can take pilots with low (now) experience, bring them to standard, and then the flow to the "major" will be done seamlessly with experienced knowledgeable pilots. Lower experience = lower pay which is fair and once at mainline you have your spot and everything increases from there. Plus it is way easier to negotiate if both groups are one... So from a true one list it is a lot easier to build on.

It's not industry standard, I 100% agree. But it's time to evolve. The industry standard has been crap for many decades and nobody has ever been happy with it. Let's change this. The only reason it's a mess right now is because some guys are trying to step on the others using weak arguments. When we got hired we got told how it was... now some are looking for opportunities to get ahead. It's sad and unfortunate.

D-2.

[plausiblyannonymous]

Once again, I don't have an issue with flow, but to transfer ones DOH from a regional to a mainline is not only contrary to industry standard, it's counterproductive. Look at the mess it's already created. I hope those who pushed for this one-list concept in the beginning, now have enough humility to see the errors of their ways.

Once again, someone doesn't seem to get it. The one list + flow is a great idea. You can take pilots with low (now) experience, bring them to standard, and then the flow to the "major" will be done seamlessly with experienced knowledgeable pilots. Lower experience = lower pay which is fair and once at mainline you have your spot and everything increases from there. Plus it is way easier to negotiate if both groups are one... So from a true one list it is a lot easier to build on.

It's not industry standard, I 100% agree. But it's time to evolve. The industry standard has been crap for many decades and nobody has ever been happy with it. Let's change this. The only reason it's a mess right now is because some guys are trying to step on the others using weak arguments. When we got hired we got told how it was... now some are looking for opportunities to get ahead. It's sad and unfortunate.

D-2.

That's not the way he wants it to work. He's trying to say that we should all get on our knees and work our asses off, then come to mainline as an OTS pilot with five times as much experience as the current OTS hires.

[cloak]

...It's not industry standard, I 100% agree. But it's time to evolve. The industry standard has been crap for many decades and nobody has ever been happy with it. Let's change this. The only reason it's a mess right now is because some guys are trying to step on the others using weak arguments...

The seniority system in general is not ideal, but while it's being used elsewhere in the industry, to arbitrarily change it in one carrier puts those pilots at a disadvantage. Instead of using WJ seniority to make Encore more appealing, its wawcon should be brought closer to industry standard. This further proves that if one group ventures off too far from the rest of the pack, it puts itself into unnecessary challenges.

The one list is a mess because it doesn't coincide with logical progression. It doesn't make sense to have pilots flying as FOs on the dash to be senior to FOs on the B737 with much more experience on the machine, ready to upgrade, but held back due to an arbitrary system that makes no sense. It's unfortunate that it will negatively impact some, but that promise should have never been made. Voting for this PTA will only delay the inevitable while making the problem bigger. If there is going to be a seniority, and it seems like it is, it can only be based on date of hire.

[cloak]

That's not the way he wants it to work. He's trying to say that we should all get on our knees and work our asses off, then come to mainline as an OTS pilot with five times as much experience as the current OTS hires.

I don't know how old you are or how much flying experience, or life experience for that matter, you have, so my apologies in advance if you are a seasoned individual. Also not sure if this style of arguing is new and trendy, however I agree with the other poster that before Encore EVERYONE at WESTJET was an "OTS" as some say. And Encore is not the measuring stick of piloting, so easy with OTS innuendos!

[sarg]

Once again, I don't have an issue with flow, but to transfer ones DOH from a regional to a mainline is not only contrary to industry standard, it's counterproductive. Look at the mess it's already created. I hope those who pushed for this one-list concept in the beginning, now have enough humility to see the errors of their ways.

Once again, someone doesn't seem to get it. The one list + flow is a great idea. You can take pilots with low (now) experience, bring them to standard, and then the flow to the "major" will be done seamlessly with experienced knowledgeable pilots. Lower experience = lower pay which is fair and once at mainline you have your spot and everything increases from there. Plus it is way easier to negotiate if both groups are one... So from a true one list it is a lot easier to build on.

It's not industry standard, I 100% agree. But it's time to evolve. The industry standard has been crap for many decades and nobody has ever been happy with it. Let's change this. The only reason it's a mess right now is because some guys are trying to step on the others using weak arguments. When we got hired we got told how it was... now some are looking for opportunities to get ahead. It's sad and unfortunate.

D-2.

One list + 100% flow is a great idea, anything less than 100% flow is going to all but guarantee future strife. I'm not sure how you figure there will be easier negotiations, there are 3 separate companies with 2 separate bargaining units, that just happen share 1 seniority list if the PTA passes. You may be right about it being time to evolve, but I think that the company is the one that needs to evolve by voluntarily recognizing that all pilot employed by the WestJet group of companies would be better served as a common bargaining unit. One MEC negotiates a new combined CBA, put in experience requirements on equipment if necessary and truly move on as one group.

The " when we got hired we got told how it was" argument is weak, there are lots of pilot who got told Calgary was their base and all their flying would be out of Calgary. They made life decisions based on that promise and are now commuting to Toronto to have the left seat they were promised would be in Calgary. So, yes thing change and we all have to deal with the new realities whatever they might be.

[cloak]

One list + 100% flow is a great idea, anything less than 100% flow is going to all but guarantee future strife...

Bingo! That is exactly it. Anything less than 100% flow is bound to create problems. That is why the one list doesn't work. Flow to BOTL is the only way, which by the way also works with 100% flow.

[Gerry Schwartz]

.

[cloak]

You sound a lot like an Encore pilot that also likes long posts! I'll try to be brief. Firstly, if you want to debate, never mind others' motives, argue for your points and perspective, no use attacking others. People often find things to complain about and threaten to quit, etc. But they will calm down once they logically weigh the merits of the situation. And the fact is, promises or not, the situation has changed with certification, and further complicated by Onex sale. More consolidation is quite likely which makes a non DOH seniority even more complicated for WJ pilots.

As for bump down, it is doubtful any WJ pilot wants to bump down to Encore. No one at WestJet wanted those positions when it started. Plus if there are that many lay-offs to bump into Swoop, then Encore, it just may be a sinking ship. Without this PTA the cash for option may or may not be as good or better. But what does that or the fact that is tied to PTA say? And as for whipsaw, the real protection is in scope which exists now.

Instead of WJ seniority to make Encore more appealing, its wawcon must be improved. And that is the job of its own MEC and the corporation, not WestJet pilots. Reserved seniority on another airline is not going to solve their recruitment challenges. Encore wawcon is still far behind its competitors, Jazz, Porter and Sky. That has been masked by the one list and lure of a WJ seniority number. Without one, it will have to do better to attract pilots. And even with a NO vote, Encore will still have guaranteed flow, and top-up pay, which is much better than other regionals.

[Gerry Schwartz]

Voting now closed.

[Mostly Harmless]