You DO log time as an RP and it is very easy to have the "cruise" restriction lifted and get a full type endosement. You can even log left seat time I suppose.... because you sit in the left seat half the time you are up there.
It is then quite easy to turn this into a full F/O position with most contract companies. All they want is 500 hours type and a rating.
I would recommend the RP position over EMJ F/O due to the destinations, layovers, time off, and life style.
I believe the EMJ is going to do alot of RJ type short sector flying. Long haul flying is like working for a diferent airline.
AC Course Date
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Jaques Strappe
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How do you plan on logging time without a full endorsement? Even if you went to some "contractor" for a full endorsement, you still need to do a minimum number of takeoffs and landings to keep current. Seeing as how you can't touch the airplane below 10,000 feet I believe this will be a difficult feat.Lost in Saigon wrote:You DO log time as an RP and it is very easy to have the "cruise" restriction lifted and get a full type endosement. You can even log left seat time I suppose.... because you sit in the left seat half the time you are up there.
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You are dreaming even more if you think you can log left seat time in an A340 just because you are sitting in the seat with a 10,000 ft and above only RP endorsement having never done a takeoff or landing. You would not last very long if the Captain, who could be the Chief Pilot came back from break to see you filling out your logbook with command time in HIS airplane!
RP time is the same as S/O time.
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Lost in Saigon
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No Jaques Strappe, It is incorrect to say that RP time is the same as Second Officer time. It is obvious you have never been an RP.
Don't you know someone who is/or was an RP?
When the Captain is asleep in his bunk and the F/O has gone for a nice long shit, WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK IS IN COMMAND OF THE AIRCRAFT?
An RP is a REQUIRED member of the crew. The flight can not depart unless he is there. RP's log the flight time the same as the rest of the crew members on that flight.
I'll admit, I should not have suggested that an RP can log "left seat time", but they do log every minute of flight time as part of the required crew. When occupying the left seat, only the RP is allowed to assume the left seat duties as pilot flying during an emergency descent. The F/O is not qualified or trained to do so.
It is no different than if you had three captains flying together. One is the designated Captain, One is the designated F/O, and one is the designated "Augment Pilot"
While it is true they don't do actual takeoffs and landings in the aircraft, they do plenty in the SIM every 6 months. RP's get EXACTLY the same initial course as F/O's and do the same recurrent training every 6 months.
The only difference is that they are not evaluated on their performance below 10,000’.
Very few airlines even have “Cruise Relief Pilots”. Most use regular Captains or First officers as augment pilots on long haul flights. For years Air Canada got off “cheap” paying their RP’s what they did. And now it is truly insulting that half the RP’s get formula pay while the other half make thousands less because they were forced into Position group pay.
Don’t get me started……………
Don't you know someone who is/or was an RP?
When the Captain is asleep in his bunk and the F/O has gone for a nice long shit, WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK IS IN COMMAND OF THE AIRCRAFT?
An RP is a REQUIRED member of the crew. The flight can not depart unless he is there. RP's log the flight time the same as the rest of the crew members on that flight.
I'll admit, I should not have suggested that an RP can log "left seat time", but they do log every minute of flight time as part of the required crew. When occupying the left seat, only the RP is allowed to assume the left seat duties as pilot flying during an emergency descent. The F/O is not qualified or trained to do so.
It is no different than if you had three captains flying together. One is the designated Captain, One is the designated F/O, and one is the designated "Augment Pilot"
While it is true they don't do actual takeoffs and landings in the aircraft, they do plenty in the SIM every 6 months. RP's get EXACTLY the same initial course as F/O's and do the same recurrent training every 6 months.
The only difference is that they are not evaluated on their performance below 10,000’.
Very few airlines even have “Cruise Relief Pilots”. Most use regular Captains or First officers as augment pilots on long haul flights. For years Air Canada got off “cheap” paying their RP’s what they did. And now it is truly insulting that half the RP’s get formula pay while the other half make thousands less because they were forced into Position group pay.
Don’t get me started……………
To those that have interviews/interviewed. Has anyone heard of someone who has interviewed and waited 6+ weeks only to be turned down? Is there a secondary process in which a possible candidate can get rejected? This forum is full of questions with very few answers and a lot of speculation. I guess this was bound to happen with Air Canada potentially hiring 600+ over the next couple of years. JB
Personally and this is from my experience I would go on the big machine as the RP. The lack of take off and landings will be limted to a few years and the nonsense of getting an endorsement that could help you in a downturn is silly. The EMB170/190 series is only used by a few airlines worldwide let alone Canada. Guys in the US log time on type in the right seat witout and endorsement period although I hear this is changing.
Places like Emirates, Cathay, Virgin etc. etc. would be in favour of the 767/340 experience as these are the types they operate. You will do less sectors and visit more interesting places ie not in the US or Canada. Each to his own but four sector days in shit winter weather in and out of Laguardia etc and back to TO eating a cold meal sounds fun.
Just my two cents but take it from someone who has done short and long. Take the bigger bird regardless of rank. You will get years of domestic flying on the 320 before you know it.
Places like Emirates, Cathay, Virgin etc. etc. would be in favour of the 767/340 experience as these are the types they operate. You will do less sectors and visit more interesting places ie not in the US or Canada. Each to his own but four sector days in shit winter weather in and out of Laguardia etc and back to TO eating a cold meal sounds fun.
Just my two cents but take it from someone who has done short and long. Take the bigger bird regardless of rank. You will get years of domestic flying on the 320 before you know it.
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Jaques Strappe
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Saigon
Sorry dude, but you are not in command when the captain is having his break. Not at Air Canada anyway, which is where we are talking about. It is very clear in the FOM that the F/O has command when the Captain is out of the flight deck and by the way, an F/O can do an emergency decent from the right seat, it is part of the training matrix to satisfy CARs.
I have flown enough long haul with RP's who were later furloughed, to know that spending 3 years as an RP with their finger up their ass eating J class meals between fuel checks, made it difficult looking for work. Their flying skills were, well lets say, a little rusty after 3 years of staring at an autopilot.
At least as an E175/190 F/O, the same candidate in the same situation is a little better prepared as far as hands and feet go. You gives a shit about the E170 endorsement, even if he had an A320 endorsement, he may end up flying a 737 somewhere. At least he is current, has been flying a jet. is marketable and will probably fair better in a sim eval situation.
If you want to rot away at high altitude for 12 hours at a time doing nothing but fuel checks, fill your boots. If you want to log left seat time while doing so, then I suggest you change your name to Parker. There are only 2 main columns in most logbooks. PIC and 2IC. Unless you have a column for Cruise Relief Pilot, I don't see how you can log anything as you are not the PIC, or 2IC, ( no matter who is on break ) you are not even current on the airplane below 10,000 ft!
Sorry dude, but you are not in command when the captain is having his break. Not at Air Canada anyway, which is where we are talking about. It is very clear in the FOM that the F/O has command when the Captain is out of the flight deck and by the way, an F/O can do an emergency decent from the right seat, it is part of the training matrix to satisfy CARs.
I have flown enough long haul with RP's who were later furloughed, to know that spending 3 years as an RP with their finger up their ass eating J class meals between fuel checks, made it difficult looking for work. Their flying skills were, well lets say, a little rusty after 3 years of staring at an autopilot.
At least as an E175/190 F/O, the same candidate in the same situation is a little better prepared as far as hands and feet go. You gives a shit about the E170 endorsement, even if he had an A320 endorsement, he may end up flying a 737 somewhere. At least he is current, has been flying a jet. is marketable and will probably fair better in a sim eval situation.
If you want to rot away at high altitude for 12 hours at a time doing nothing but fuel checks, fill your boots. If you want to log left seat time while doing so, then I suggest you change your name to Parker. There are only 2 main columns in most logbooks. PIC and 2IC. Unless you have a column for Cruise Relief Pilot, I don't see how you can log anything as you are not the PIC, or 2IC, ( no matter who is on break ) you are not even current on the airplane below 10,000 ft!
Hey, that sounds like my job!!Jaques Strappe wrote:If you want to rot away at high altitude for 12 hours at a time doing nothing but fuel checks, fill your boots.
BACK to the main intent of the thread... anyone heard any word of when the next course will be after 7 November? Are they back to every two weeks?
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Lost in Saigon
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Of course the RP is not in command for log book purposes, but if he is the only one in the flight deck, then what do YOU call it?
I will say it again...............
When the Captain is asleep in his bunk and the F/O has gone for a nice long shit, WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK IS IN COMMAND OF THE AIRCRAFT?
Not the Captain... HE IS NOT ON THE FLIGHT DECK....
Not the F/O..... HE IS NOT ON THE FLIGHT DECK....
In this situation, there is only on person on the flight deck and that is your Cruise Relief Pilot. If the cabin should depressurize at FL390, you better have some trust and respect for his flying ability and judgment.
You say you flew long haul with RP's, but your condescending attitude towards cruise relief pilot is disappointing. You must be a joy to fly with.
I will say it again...............
When the Captain is asleep in his bunk and the F/O has gone for a nice long shit, WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK IS IN COMMAND OF THE AIRCRAFT?
Not the Captain... HE IS NOT ON THE FLIGHT DECK....
Not the F/O..... HE IS NOT ON THE FLIGHT DECK....
In this situation, there is only on person on the flight deck and that is your Cruise Relief Pilot. If the cabin should depressurize at FL390, you better have some trust and respect for his flying ability and judgment.
You say you flew long haul with RP's, but your condescending attitude towards cruise relief pilot is disappointing. You must be a joy to fly with.
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Jaques Strappe
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Saigon
I am not sure where you get off. I have no "attitude" towards a relief pilot. I simply said that given a choice, it may be adviseable to take an F/O spot instead of an RP spot, in the event that one may be furloughed in a few years.
No disrespect, but I think I have been around a little longer than you and have lived through this industry a little longer. 22 years so far. I have been through a few slow downs and have volunteered for pilot placement duties trying to find work for furloughed pilots. When someone asks what may be a better avenue, I give my opinion and provide some facts.
If you want to take offense, then that is up to you. Don't waste my time preaching the obvious about when the Captain is on break and the F/O is having a dump. You may be manipulating the controls in that scenario but you are not entitled to log left seat time, as you put it. It is also much easier to place an active F/O versus an RP.
Some guys on this forum asking the questions, may be faced with the decision and don't have jet experience, so getting a position where you can actually "fly" the airplane will at least provide that individual with some experience in the event of a slowdown.
Rather than getting all defensive with insults, you may want to take a look at the bigger picture.
I am not sure where you get off. I have no "attitude" towards a relief pilot. I simply said that given a choice, it may be adviseable to take an F/O spot instead of an RP spot, in the event that one may be furloughed in a few years.
No disrespect, but I think I have been around a little longer than you and have lived through this industry a little longer. 22 years so far. I have been through a few slow downs and have volunteered for pilot placement duties trying to find work for furloughed pilots. When someone asks what may be a better avenue, I give my opinion and provide some facts.
If you want to take offense, then that is up to you. Don't waste my time preaching the obvious about when the Captain is on break and the F/O is having a dump. You may be manipulating the controls in that scenario but you are not entitled to log left seat time, as you put it. It is also much easier to place an active F/O versus an RP.
Some guys on this forum asking the questions, may be faced with the decision and don't have jet experience, so getting a position where you can actually "fly" the airplane will at least provide that individual with some experience in the event of a slowdown.
Rather than getting all defensive with insults, you may want to take a look at the bigger picture.
Jaques is correct on this one. Internationally, the S/O or cruise relief is a P2 X rating. Command P1, FO P2. Your time as relief pilot will only count to about 25% towards your total time with most Airlines including EK and CX. And you really shouldn't be counting the whole flight in your log book either. IE the block time of the whole flight; you should only be counting time spent in the seat. Not to say that an RP is not an important position and is qualified to do the emerg. decent, etc...I think I'd be a good postion for a few years to just hang out and enjoy the destinations and better meals.
It is however interesting to note that 744 rps from AC with no other jet time (and they told the new company as much) were able to get right seat jobs on a 744 at higher pay than I was comeing off the 320 and I had to settle for the right seat of the 340 at the same company, I happen to agree with JS though lots of time for long haul in your life get some ups and down first.. 
...besides after a year and a half doing long haul 340 work I want the emb when I come back as I am board shitless of crossing the pacific...and asia and the middle east and Auss.....the layovers are good though.
29
...besides after a year and a half doing long haul 340 work I want the emb when I come back as I am board shitless of crossing the pacific...and asia and the middle east and Auss.....the layovers are good though.29
