AC and TRZ Agree to Terminate Arrangement

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FL320
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL320 »

FL-280 wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:55 pmBOTL
Sorry to burst your bubble but it will never happen. Talk to your union to get more accurate information.
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Last edited by FL320 on Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Duke Point
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Duke Point »

No it wont be BOTL, but it wont be DOH either.

The new list will likely be a series of ratios based on "projected career expectations" at each organization.

There won't likely be windfall gains for Transat pilots that allow them to drastically "jump the cue".

DP.
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FL-280
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL-280 »

I was messing around on BOTL.... but as said it wont be doh either.

My true guess is a rouge and transat merger only where mainline pilots go fly the vacation side of the airline at their leisure but can come back to AC after the 2 years waiting period. kinda like now. All vacant poisitions would be filled with AC new hires and the original transat pilots staying in the vacation branch.
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ahramin
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by ahramin »

Well that sounds very realistic. With the minor flaw that there would be pilots who are not on the AC seniority list flying at Rouge. Are you really willing to give up your scope clause? And if so, why? What's the benefit?
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FL-280
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL-280 »

They are not giving up the scope clause, just limiting what TS pilots can do. The benefit, TS pilots wont be able to touch a mainline aircraft..... thats where the fuss is. The senior ac pilots that have waited a long time for that wb upgrade would let that pass in a heartbeat.
It would be a hybrid of what is going on in Europe, AC will take note of all that....

I truly believe... this is where this is going to go. Its socialized bidding at rouge too, trust me its a win win. No all out war, no 8 years in court. Both parties loose nothing. TS pilots stay vacation pilots with a slightly better wage, AC pilots remain mainline pilots and vacation pilots if they choose to.
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ahramin
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by ahramin »

Doesn't the AC scope clause require the Rouge flying to be done by pilots on the ACPA list? And doesn't it limit the size of Rouge?
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FL-280
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL-280 »

They could change that easily to the addition of the transat pilots.... You guys seem really protective of the Air Canada pilots flying... I wonder why lol
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flyinhigh
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by flyinhigh »

I don’t know anyone that is protective of any flying. Asking a question about scope and responding that way is juvenile.

Also, your right. Scope can be reopened and changed, but do you really want the company opening what AC pilots have fought tooth and nail for, for so long.

Personally, I’d keep the company away from that as much as possible.

Also, if you think an arbitrator will limit what aircraft/company a pilot group is limited to than your dreaming. Look no further than when the westjet pilots acquired swoop. To get it done right, the parties need to come to an agreement that is somewhat far to both parties Or this will get dragged out and there will be tonnes if Canadian animosity again.



FL-280 wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:30 pm They could change that easily to the addition of the transat pilots.... You guys seem really protective of the Air Canada pilots flying... I wonder why lol
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FL-280
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL-280 »

Obviously this would be a negotiated setlement where cooler heads would prevail..... an arbitrator wont limit what aircraft TS pilots could fly. But would most likely cut 3-6 years seniority off everyone.... is that what the ts group wants?
We are just guessing here man, my guess is as good as yours....
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Duke Point
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Duke Point »

Any "hold Transat pilots at Rouge" scenario sounds messy.

Serious "common employer" issues may arise.

Just use FAIR seniority integration ratios that don't clearly advantage or disadvantage any group. No scope adjustment...ever. That's a Pandora's Box waiting to erupt. Article One is the first Article for a reason. Don't screw with it. One list.

Transat pilots had career expectations, so do AC pilots...…..neither groups expectations should be seriously impacted by the merger.

DP.
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DanWEC
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by DanWEC »

As far as I can see there are 3 main elements on the aviation side of Transat: Pilots, Tails, and Routes.

Given the restrictions, the most viable solution would be to merge Transat pilots into AC mainline.
The tails, add them to mainline and/or replace old 767 and 319 at Rouge as dictated by scope #'s.
AC needs pilots, and they want to expand overall. I don't believe there is anything saying mainline can't expand. However, if they do could they ask for proportionality for Rouge?

The Transat routes (The ones left after the Competition bureau makes their demands) get homologated into both Rouge and Mainline networks as fit. It wouldn't make a lot of sense to keep Transat flying as it's own scheduling entity if rates and conditions were the same as mainline.

Rouge pilots stays Rouge (Good for the guys there!) tails #'s stay the same, and all other scope requirements are met.

The Transat brand and office, which is being kept, may exist in a lesser form to deliver a different style of product from Rouge or AC Vacations (Which both blow.) But the pilots would simply have to be mainline.

Seniority for the merger will likely be a bit of a compromise ratio where they both give a little. There's only 600 at TS, very evenly spread, hiring every month, and isn't AC about 3500 and hiring 20-50 a month? Even slotted in 1:1 nobody would even notice, you'd have a proportional number of TS guys under you as above, so some of you guys have to chill, but that likely won't happen and would have to be worked out.

Of course there would be some mobility options and plenty of other details to hash out... such as silly hats. ;)
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FL-280
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL-280 »

3500 pilots at AC? You are lost man, and there is no way in bloody hell they are slotting in 1:1 lol
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98 Corolla
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by 98 Corolla »

The AC pilot demographics are somewhat junior weighted because of huge hiring for the last few years. Having almost all TS pilots slot ahead of this wave would be hugely advantageous for them.
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DanWEC
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by DanWEC »

FL-280 wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:00 pm 3500 pilots at AC? You are lost man, and there is no way in bloody hell they are slotting in 1:1 lol
Actual words from me:
Danwec wrote: but that likely won't happen
Anyhow I assumed there were about 3500 now, given in 2011 there were 3050. Just guessing. It's irrelevant.
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FL-280
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL-280 »

4500....
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by altiplano »

There are fences all the time in seniority mergers. No blue pilot can bid a mainline seat for 5 years, or no 777/787 for 6 years, that kind of thing. We'll all be on the same list, opening scope or allowing the corp to play us off each other hurts us all...

It will be a ratio of some sort with adjustment for pay/contract/career expectations. Lots of guys at AC <10 years, maybe about 1/3, but plenty of guys >20 years, >40 years even... I'd hardly call it a junior weighted list.
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ahramin
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by ahramin »

Exactly. In the case of fences, it's to the benefit of the company and to the benefit of the current AC pilots to keep the fences up as long as possible. In the case of FL-280's suggestion that Rouge grow by 50 tails and the only benefit to the AC pilots is a permanent fence, it's a massive benefit to the company and a big loss of opportunity for both pilot groups.

TS is bringing 50 tails and the routes and passengers for those tails. I hope there aren't too many pilots at AC that are willing to modify their scope clause in order to see those tails at Rouge rather than mainline, all just to spite the TS pilots with no benefits to themselves. This is a big opportunity for both pilot groups to get all sorts of improvements to the final collective agreement for the merged group. Or that negotiating capital can be spent making sure the socially inferior blue group doesn't benefit. I'm sure I know which one AC management is hoping for.
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Jean-Pierre
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Jean-Pierre »

altiplano wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:43 pm I'd hardly call it a junior weighted list.
If you have 4500 pilots and hired 1000 in the last two years how can you not be junior weighted? That is almost 1/4 of your list and if the rest is more or less evenly spaced it brings the average years of service way down.
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FL-280
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL-280 »

TS doesnt have 50 tails.... it’s more like 35 when you take out all the 310 and classic 737s....
plus some leases that are power by the hour and AC probably wont want to pay for for that.
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ahramin
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by ahramin »

And would you rather have those tails at mainline or Rouge?
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