Insurance Minimums

Mo Noney · Post by **Mo Noney** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:23 am

Can anyone explain to me why insurance minimums seem to be going through the roof?

Over the last couple of years I have seen them continue to be out of reach across the board. One company I visited 2 years ago, said that their minimum requirment was 1000 hrs TT. So I returned 6 months later, only to be told that it was 1500. Now it has risen to 2000.

The big killer is multi time; how the hell are you supposed to build 200 hrs multi when you can't even get your foot in the door.

It appears that the industry is now a slave to the insurance man who seems to be yanking up the rates for an outfitt in Manitoba, everytime a gunshot rings out on the other side of the F***ing planet!!!! Is there a very real issue? Are planes falling out of the sky all over Canada? Or is Sproggit, sylvester and Mctavish Inc. just trying to make a few extra bucks.

Don't get me wrong, if there is a real finacial imballance, the money has to come from somwhere. But these guys need to understand that if we don't get any new pilots in to-day, then there won't be any tomorrow and we will all go out of buisness.

End of Rant....

It's OK....I'm alright now....

groundtoflightdeck · Post by **groundtoflightdeck** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:47 am

It would be nice to some regulations controlling insurance in Canada. It would be ideal if parliment sat down and hammered out some insurance maximums, a lot to hope for though.

Northern Flyer · Post by **Northern Flyer** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:39 am

Baldrick, PM me if you want, I work for a company that doesn't have insurance minimums, in MB.

I don't know were you are applieing, but maby someone is pulling your chain, 2000 hours? Or is that Keystones new mins?

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:59 am

Bladrick, I'm not sure if it's the minimums that are on the rise but instead the premiums.

As northern flyer mentioned his company has zero minimums. Imo, they could probably be saving money if they told their broker they'd only hire 500 hour pilots instead of 250hr.

But you're right we need the government to do something about this Insurance BS.

Even if the buggers would let us create our own Co-operative/insurance companies. Shameful..

North Shore · Post by **North Shore** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:33 pm

Has anyone actually looked into setting up an insurance co-op for aviation? My initial suspicion would be that the (2?) insurance companies that deal with aviation in Canada paid for a few rounds of golf and a couple of high-class girls for some politician, and now it is written in law that you can't start up your own insurance company.

I seem to recall that ?Phillyfan? was talking about an insurance co-op at some time in the past?

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 3:28 pm

Maybe CAAP should look into creating a co-op.

*runs off to join CAAP*

CLguy · Post by **CLguy** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:15 pm

I know the Northwestern Ontario Air Carriers Association was looking at forming a COOP a couple of years ago but it seems nothing has come of it. Not sure where it stands!!

SplitS · Post by **SplitS** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:43 pm

Baldrick,

I think northern flyer and cyyz have it right - there just pulling your chain.. Call a few different companies with similar a/c and all will have different minimums.. Maybe youve been speaking with crappy companies... Look around.

MurtsAir · Post by **MurtsAir** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:36 pm

Ok im no insurance expert but this is what ive heared.............. That the insurances companies invested alot of there money in the stock market like tech stocks and such and now that theve tanked and lost money there trying to make up for there shortfall because of there own business practices. As well Sept 11 was a convienent excuse to jack up the rates. anyone else know anything about this

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:14 pm

Insurance companies used to compete with each other for your money because they could make a big profit with your money. They would gamble that they could invest your premiums and make enough to pay out all claims and keep a profit for themselves. Rates were low because they had to be to get your money. These days are gone.

Now the money is made by the premiums. They gamble that they can take in more than they have to pay out. So they really do not need your money. They just are not that interested in insuring aviation because of the risk involved. So the few companies that do insure aviation charge big premiums up front in order to make sure that they turn a profit.

It is true that insurance companies have used september 11 as an excuse to pistol whip everyone. They are quietly turning massive profits right now because very few people question high insurance rates while the world is busy blowing itself up.

However this does not translate directly to aviation in Canada. Avemco pulled out of Canada because it was not making money insuring Canadian aircraft. Planes are insanely expensive to recover, repair, and replace. Cat Driver can tell us why i am sure.

There is simply not enough incentive for insurance companies to take the risk of offering competitive aviation insurance.

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:39 pm

I'd suspect that since 6000 Hour pilots (without 2 internal...) are stuck taking Navajo jobs, that companies are upping their insurance minimums on paper to get cheaper rates. As long as high timers take the shitty pay that goes with these highly glamorous jobs, you and I don't have a shot at them.

Funny, 3-5 years ago I'd have had enough hours to be a King Air captain. Now people are telling me all I qualify for is right seat piston jobs. Guess I'll stick here for a bit... Oh wait, that's not funny. cj

Pan Pan · Post by **Pan Pan** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:09 pm

Insurance rates and thus imposed minimimuns particularly for float operators have been jumping leaps and bounds over the last few years and the line that is coming out of the insurance industry is that is the result of the Montreal Convention being ratified. The Montreal Convention supercedes the Warsaw Pact and in a nutshell allows individuals the right to hold legal preceding in their country of origin. ie Americans can now sue in the land of the proud and free...previously if you crashed with a yankee onboard, court and the applicable settlement was determined by Canadian law and Canadian standards. Now the trial with be in "Little Rock AK" with a room full of good ole boys and the ambulance chaser. The settlement will be using "their standards".

A whole new ballgame for the insurance underwriters...

Exposure...this is the most important word in the underwriters vocabulary.

http://www.state.gov/e/eb/rls/othr/25041.htm

jimmyjazz · Post by **jimmyjazz** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:14 am

I know of several companies lately who have hired people of the same experince that they have been hiring for years then being told by insurance that they need 500 total 250 floats (pic)and 400 pic 100 on type for a job in a 180! The guys who are talking about no minimums are probably refering to skyward or perimeter and others like that for f/o positions with experinced capts. But low time pic jobs both multi and single are getting tough to fill, just look at the trouble lockhart is having, people that meet their insurance minimums already have a better job and don't see why they should move to siuoxlookout. It's getting really hard for these companys to find qualified pilots to take these positions for the wages that these companys can pay.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 10:17 am

Pan Pan wrote:The Montreal Convention supercedes the Warsaw Pact and in a nutshell allows individuals the right to hold legal preceding in their country of origin. ie Americans can now sue in the land of the proud and free...previously if you crashed with a yankee onboard, court and the applicable settlement was determined by Canadian law and Canadian standards.

ROFL.. I love bureaucracy and political/governmental bs..

So, I'm forced to buy canadian insurance so an american can sue me.. So shouldn't I be able to buy insurance in some third world country if I can be sued under anyones laws, I should be allowed to fly under anyone regs and insurance and some countries probably don't have insurance.. I'll just take my chances with the law suits.. No Insurance for me..

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 4:11 pm

My first real twin job (navajo driver SP-IFR) I had 1200 hrs, 100 multi and 30 multi PIC. After moving up in the company I talked to the insurance guy a fair bit to get guys approved. He told me that insurance is like buying a used car (his words). The primary price factor is the type of airplane and it's hull value. Flying experience is like if the car has air conditioning in it; it won't make much of a price difference. However, you may not be willing to buy a car without air conditioning. The broker takes your qualifications to the underwriter who decides if you can go on the insurance. If the CP and broker can vouch that your a good guy with some maturity, never wrecked an airplance, etc., the underwriter may be more likely to bring you on board and approve you. You may not get a 500 hr guy to fly a twin on his own, but a guy with 1200 hrs is possible depending on who you talk to. Companies that have a million resumes on file may not be interested in bargaining with an insurance company and will take the "minimum requirements" as hard and fast rules.

Insurance Minimums

Insurance Minimums

Insurance Mins.

Re: Insurance Mins.