Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

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pelmet
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Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by pelmet »

C-FKWE, a WestJet Encore De Havilland DHC-8-402, was operating as flight WEN3362 from Fort
McMurray (CYMM), AB to Edmonton (CYEG), AB with 4 crew members and 70 passengers
onboard. During landing on RWY 12, the aircraft made abnormal contact with the runway. After
clearing RWY 12 on taxiway A2, the flight crew became aware that the nose tires had burst. Due to
thunderstorm activity, company maintenance were unable to attend to the aircraft to change both
nose tires for approximately 40 minutes. After deplaning passengers at the gate, a more detailed
inspection of the aircraft revealed wrinkled fuselage skins, left nose gear door damage, damage to
the forward pressure bulkhead, and the nose gear assembly. There were no reported injuries to the
crew or passengers.
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Zaibatsu
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by Zaibatsu »

Not surprising with the experience levels out there and the nasty landing habits of the Q.
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Victory
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by Victory »

I wonder if ground workers would walk to their car in the parking lot at the end of their shift and go home or stay inside where it's safe if there's thunderstorms in the area.
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tsgas
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by tsgas »

Zaibatsu wrote: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:45 am Not surprising with the experience levels out there and the nasty landing habits of the Q.
But on the plus side , there was no damage to the rwy.
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digits_
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by digits_ »

tsgas wrote: Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:16 pm
Zaibatsu wrote: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:45 am Not surprising with the experience levels out there and the nasty landing habits of the Q.
But on the plus side , there was no damage to the rwy.
We'll have to rewrite the conditions for a good landing:

A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great' landing is one after which the runway can be used again. An 'excellent' landing is one after which they can use the plane again.
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Rooster69
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by Rooster69 »

Victory wrote: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:11 am I wonder if ground workers would walk to their car in the parking lot at the end of their shift and go home or stay inside where it's safe if there's thunderstorms in the area.

Really? Are you aware that during a red alert , ramp personnel are not allowed to be on the ramp? I wouldn’t be walking around on a tarmac during thunderstorm activity. I wouldn’t be walking through a parking lot either.
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Hangry
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by Hangry »

More importantly I wouldn’t be landing an airplane in thunderstorms either.
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tsgas
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by tsgas »

Hangry wrote: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:54 pm More importantly I wouldn’t be landing an airplane in thunderstorms either.
The crew from AF 358 , as well as their insurance company , wish that they had followed your advise.
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trey kule
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by trey kule »

Zaibatsu wrote
Not surprising with the experience levels out there and the nasty landing habits of the Q.
Not surprising?
Do you have the experience level for those crew members?
Do you know the circumstances of the accident?

The kind of comment is more than a bit unfair if it is just outright speculation.
Lots and lots of q landings done every day. And experienced pilots screwing up.
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plhought
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by plhought »

Victory wrote: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:11 am I wonder if ground workers would walk to their car in the parking lot at the end of their shift and go home or stay inside where it's safe if there's thunderstorms in the area.
Those "ground workers" you're talking about are some pretty good AME's in YEG (that I know personally) that were trying their best to get out and off the active there. They wanted more than any to get that airframe out if there. YEG airport was having none of it of course. We're not talking about some knucklehead rampies here.
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Zaibatsu
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by Zaibatsu »

trey kule wrote: Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:47 pm Zaibatsu wrote
Not surprising with the experience levels out there and the nasty landing habits of the Q.
Not surprising?
Do you have the experience level for those crew members?
Do you know the circumstances of the accident?

The kind of comment is more than a bit unfair if it is just outright speculation.
Lots and lots of q landings done every day. And experienced pilots screwing up.
You worry about your own drivel and I’ll worry about mine, okay? :smt014
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Hangry
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by Hangry »

tsgas wrote: Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:30 pm
Hangry wrote: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:54 pm More importantly I wouldn’t be landing an airplane in thunderstorms either.
The crew from AF 358 , as well as their insurance company , wish that they had followed your advise.
I was actually talking about this particular Encore crew. But yes. I’m sure AF would in hindsight have preferred to wait for the TS to pass as well.
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JL
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by JL »

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Donald
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by Donald »

Must’ve been a training captain then?
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Oxi
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by Oxi »

Why does Encore always go with Flap 15? :roll:
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DanWEC
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by DanWEC »

During the approach phase, the PF added 20 knots to the VREF speed in anticipation of a missed approach, which would involve flying in close proximity to the approaching thunderstorm and possible wind shear.

the aircraft touched down on the main landing gear within the touchdown zone at a speed of 142 KIAS. Shortly after the initial touchdown, the aircraft’s weight on wheels sensor indicated that the aircraft had briefly returned to air mode.

The PF then made a full nose-down elevator input. A bang and a nose-wheel shimmy followed, and the aircraft pulled to the left as it rolled out on the runway.
I've never flown a Q400, but flaps 15, and adding 20 kt to Vref in an 8g15 wind in anticipation of a GA? Then a full nose-down reaction?
Vapp of 142 sounds screaming fast to me. Is this a normal thing to do in the Q instead of maybe waiting a bit?
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altiplano
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by altiplano »

Long runway almost always flap 15 when I flew the DH8D.

Less flap is better in gusty winds and turbulence too, seems that's the case here.
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DanWEC
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by DanWEC »

altiplano wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:23 pm Long runway almost always flap 15 when I flew the DH8D.

Less flap is better in gusty winds and turbulence too, seems that's the case here.
So flap 15 is normal for a long runway, but that Vapp doesn't make any sense to me.
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yvrpilot82
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by yvrpilot82 »

DanWEC wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:48 pm
altiplano wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:23 pm Long runway almost always flap 15 when I flew the DH8D.

Less flap is better in gusty winds and turbulence too, seems that's the case here.
So flap 15 is normal for a long runway, but that Vapp doesn't make any sense to me.
Usual method is to add half the gust up to 10 knots onto the REF. 20 knots is added for ice contamination. The REF speed was not the issue here. The Q is routinely landed with REF speeds in the 140s. It lands a lot nicer that way, with a lot more tail clearance on that long body.
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co-joe
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Re: Encore wrinkles a Dash-8

Post by co-joe »

Sounds like at least one thing in common with the Jazz Q write off wrt a bounced landing recovery although this report doesn't actually say that. I'm assuming
the aircraft’s weight on wheels sensor indicated that the aircraft had briefly returned to air mode.
that "air mode" means no weight on wheels..ie "flying"?

Just guessing, but full forward elevator is not the proper bounced landing recovery?
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