Several airlines have pulled the MAX off the schedule until September. And these are US carriers relying on FAA recertification of the MAX.
How much longer do you think TC will take? One thing is for certain, it will not be coincident.
I’ll bet AC is evaluating a 2020 without the MAX.
Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views
The MOA says they will start to reduce eventually if this keeps going on.
I think they are predicting that this will keep going on and are going to get ahead on reducing a handful of Captains.
I think they are predicting that this will keep going on and are going to get ahead on reducing a handful of Captains.
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Duke Point
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views
Air Canada is not paying the salary of their Max pilots. Boeing is. It would have to be a sweeter deal for AC for those pilots go back to work than is being offered by Boeing to make the re-training costs worth while.
Calin loves a "good crisis", so I'm sure he's wringing multiple and massive concessions from Boeing. I assure you he's also getting compensation not to cancel the Max order, as it would create an industry cascade of cancellations. Other prominent carriers are likely also receiving "bonuses" not to cancel.
FWIW, when has any MOA, or contract for that matter ever stopped AC from getting what they want? Our MEC has a history of asking "how high" when the Company says jump. Nothing has changed with the new MEC. Its been a running joke for the last 17 years.
DP.
Calin loves a "good crisis", so I'm sure he's wringing multiple and massive concessions from Boeing. I assure you he's also getting compensation not to cancel the Max order, as it would create an industry cascade of cancellations. Other prominent carriers are likely also receiving "bonuses" not to cancel.
FWIW, when has any MOA, or contract for that matter ever stopped AC from getting what they want? Our MEC has a history of asking "how high" when the Company says jump. Nothing has changed with the new MEC. Its been a running joke for the last 17 years.
DP.
Last edited by Duke Point on Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views
I’m sure Boeing will giving a sweetheart deal on the outstanding 787 options that were deferred last year.
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Raymond Hall
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- Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am
Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views
From today's Financial Post:
Air Canada profit misses as costs rise amid 737 MAX grounding
Airline spent more on maintaining older aircraft in its fleet amid the grounding of the Boeing jet
Air Canada missed analysts’ estimates for quarterly profit on Tuesday, as the airline spent more on maintaining older aircraft in its fleet amid the grounding of Boeing Co’s 737 MAX jet.
Canada’s largest airline said it expects aircraft maintenance expenses to increase by about $150 million this year from 2019.
Air Canada has focused on improving margins while meeting growing demand on key domestic and international routes, but faces capacity constraints due to the global grounding of the 737 MAX plane.
North American airlines have faced higher costs and canceled thousands of flights since the grounding following two crashes involving the model.
Air Canada, which is renewing its Airbus narrow-body fleet with MAX aircraft, had expected to expand its fleet of 24 MAX jets to 50 by mid-2020.
The company reported an adjusted net income of $47 million, or 17 Canadian cents per share, for the fourth quarter ended Dec. 31, lower than the $55 million, or 20 Canadian cents per share, a year earlier.
https://business.financialpost.com/tran ... -grounding
Air Canada profit misses as costs rise amid 737 MAX grounding
Airline spent more on maintaining older aircraft in its fleet amid the grounding of the Boeing jet
Air Canada missed analysts’ estimates for quarterly profit on Tuesday, as the airline spent more on maintaining older aircraft in its fleet amid the grounding of Boeing Co’s 737 MAX jet.
Canada’s largest airline said it expects aircraft maintenance expenses to increase by about $150 million this year from 2019.
Air Canada has focused on improving margins while meeting growing demand on key domestic and international routes, but faces capacity constraints due to the global grounding of the 737 MAX plane.
North American airlines have faced higher costs and canceled thousands of flights since the grounding following two crashes involving the model.
Air Canada, which is renewing its Airbus narrow-body fleet with MAX aircraft, had expected to expand its fleet of 24 MAX jets to 50 by mid-2020.
The company reported an adjusted net income of $47 million, or 17 Canadian cents per share, for the fourth quarter ended Dec. 31, lower than the $55 million, or 20 Canadian cents per share, a year earlier.
https://business.financialpost.com/tran ... -grounding
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Raymond Hall
- Rank 7
- Posts: 647
- Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am
Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views
From today's Washington Post:
Boeing finds debris in fuel tanks of undelivered 737 Max jets
The finding means the several hundred planes will have to inspected.
Boeing found debris in the gas tanks of some of several hundred undelivered 737 Max jets, a potential safety hazard and yet another problem for the company as it tries to get the planes airborne again after two deadly crashes.
Mark Jenks, a Boeing vice president and general manager of the 737 program, sent an email to all employees on the 737 program, addressing the problem, known as foreign object debris or FOD.
“FOD is absolutely unacceptable,” Jenks wrote in the email, which was shared by a Boeing spokesman. “One escape is one too many.”
The message didn’t describe the debris, but it often includes tools or parts left behind when planes leave the production line. The Boeing spokesman said dealing with the debris is not likely to further delay the work of getting the planes off the ground.
==================
The new problem with the so-called foreign object debris was first reported by aviation industry news site Leeham News.
Issues with debris have caused headaches for Boeing and its customers before, and were part of a 2015 settlement between the company and the FAA. Last year, the Air Force temporarily halted delivery of tanker aircraft from Boeing because it was concerned about debris.
In the email to staff, Jenks described new checklists, inspections and signage designed to stem the problem.
“We need our entire team to make this a priority,” he wrote.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-v ... -max-jets/
Boeing finds debris in fuel tanks of undelivered 737 Max jets
The finding means the several hundred planes will have to inspected.
Boeing found debris in the gas tanks of some of several hundred undelivered 737 Max jets, a potential safety hazard and yet another problem for the company as it tries to get the planes airborne again after two deadly crashes.
Mark Jenks, a Boeing vice president and general manager of the 737 program, sent an email to all employees on the 737 program, addressing the problem, known as foreign object debris or FOD.
“FOD is absolutely unacceptable,” Jenks wrote in the email, which was shared by a Boeing spokesman. “One escape is one too many.”
The message didn’t describe the debris, but it often includes tools or parts left behind when planes leave the production line. The Boeing spokesman said dealing with the debris is not likely to further delay the work of getting the planes off the ground.
==================
The new problem with the so-called foreign object debris was first reported by aviation industry news site Leeham News.
Issues with debris have caused headaches for Boeing and its customers before, and were part of a 2015 settlement between the company and the FAA. Last year, the Air Force temporarily halted delivery of tanker aircraft from Boeing because it was concerned about debris.
In the email to staff, Jenks described new checklists, inspections and signage designed to stem the problem.
“We need our entire team to make this a priority,” he wrote.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-v ... -max-jets/
Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views
Definitely having some quality control issues at Boeing.
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Raymond Hall
- Rank 7
- Posts: 647
- Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am
Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views
From today’s New York Times:
Federal Prosecutors Investigating Whether Boeing Pilot Lied to F.A.A.
In questions before a grand jury, prosecutors have focused on whether a top pilot misled regulators about new flight control software in the 737 Max plane.
Federal prosecutors investigating Boeing are examining whether the company knowingly misled the Federal Aviation Administration while it was seeking the regulator’s approval for its 737 Max plane, according to two people familiar with the matter who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss an active inquiry.
In recent months, prosecutors have questioned several Boeing employees in front of a federal grand jury, with some of their queries focusing on whether Mark Forkner, a top pilot at the company, intentionally lied to the regulator about the nature of new flight control software on the jet, the people said. That software, which is known as MCAS and automatically pushes the nose of the plane down, played a role in two crashes that killed 346 people.
The Department of Justice has been investigating Boeing for months, but the information about the grand jury testimony provides some clarity about how prosecutors could be aiming to hold the company accountable for errors that led to the crashes. Mr. Forkner could face criminal charges of lying to the government. The company could also be held liable for potential wrongdoing by Mr. Forkner, because he was a senior employee responsible for Boeing’s interaction with the F.A.A. group that determined the kind of training pilots would need before flying the Max.
Last year, the company made public an instant message chat between Mr. Forkner and his colleague Patrik Gustavsson. In the exchange, from November 2016, months before the F.A.A. certified the Max, Mr. Forkner said MCAS was acting unpredictably in a flight simulator. “I basically lied to the regulators (unknowingly),” Mr. Forkner said.
--------
Prosecutors are trying to determine whether Mr. Forkner knew about a key change that allowed MCAS to trigger in almost all phases of flight and then did not give that information to the F.A.A.MCAS was designed to activate only when the plane was making sharp turns at high speeds. But late in the development of the Max, Boeing engineers decided they needed MCAS to operate when the plane was flying at low speeds, too. To have the same effect on the plane at low speeds that it had at high speeds, the engineers gave the system more power.
In the messages from November 2016, Mr. Forkner seems to note that MCAS was triggering at low speeds.
“Oh shocker alert!” he wrote. “MCAS is now active down to M .2,” he added, using a technical term that denotes a relatively slow flying speed.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/21/busi ... ation.html
Federal Prosecutors Investigating Whether Boeing Pilot Lied to F.A.A.
In questions before a grand jury, prosecutors have focused on whether a top pilot misled regulators about new flight control software in the 737 Max plane.
Federal prosecutors investigating Boeing are examining whether the company knowingly misled the Federal Aviation Administration while it was seeking the regulator’s approval for its 737 Max plane, according to two people familiar with the matter who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss an active inquiry.
In recent months, prosecutors have questioned several Boeing employees in front of a federal grand jury, with some of their queries focusing on whether Mark Forkner, a top pilot at the company, intentionally lied to the regulator about the nature of new flight control software on the jet, the people said. That software, which is known as MCAS and automatically pushes the nose of the plane down, played a role in two crashes that killed 346 people.
The Department of Justice has been investigating Boeing for months, but the information about the grand jury testimony provides some clarity about how prosecutors could be aiming to hold the company accountable for errors that led to the crashes. Mr. Forkner could face criminal charges of lying to the government. The company could also be held liable for potential wrongdoing by Mr. Forkner, because he was a senior employee responsible for Boeing’s interaction with the F.A.A. group that determined the kind of training pilots would need before flying the Max.
Last year, the company made public an instant message chat between Mr. Forkner and his colleague Patrik Gustavsson. In the exchange, from November 2016, months before the F.A.A. certified the Max, Mr. Forkner said MCAS was acting unpredictably in a flight simulator. “I basically lied to the regulators (unknowingly),” Mr. Forkner said.
--------
Prosecutors are trying to determine whether Mr. Forkner knew about a key change that allowed MCAS to trigger in almost all phases of flight and then did not give that information to the F.A.A.MCAS was designed to activate only when the plane was making sharp turns at high speeds. But late in the development of the Max, Boeing engineers decided they needed MCAS to operate when the plane was flying at low speeds, too. To have the same effect on the plane at low speeds that it had at high speeds, the engineers gave the system more power.
In the messages from November 2016, Mr. Forkner seems to note that MCAS was triggering at low speeds.
“Oh shocker alert!” he wrote. “MCAS is now active down to M .2,” he added, using a technical term that denotes a relatively slow flying speed.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/21/busi ... ation.html
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co-joe
- Rank 11
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- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
- Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME
Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views
Say what you will about the Max but at least its wheels don't keep falling off.Raymond Hall wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:09 am From today's Financial Post:
Air Canada profit misses as costs rise amid 737 MAX grounding
Airline spent more on maintaining older aircraft in its fleet amid the grounding of the Boeing jet
...
https://business.financialpost.com/tran ... -grounding
Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views
They are getting rather square, however.co-joe wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:11 amSay what you will about the Max but at least its wheels don't keep falling off.Raymond Hall wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:09 am From today's Financial Post:
Air Canada profit misses as costs rise amid 737 MAX grounding
Airline spent more on maintaining older aircraft in its fleet amid the grounding of the Boeing jet
...
https://business.financialpost.com/tran ... -grounding
Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views
Not buying it till I see it in another publication such as Aviation Week or the like.
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views
A321XLR is basically a B757-200 burning 25% less fuel.
Pretty obvious that AC has recognized the error of its ways with some of the Boeing products. No more 787’s on order. Looking to extricate from some of the firm MAX orders.
Airbus seem keen to sell planes to AC. CR never wastes an opportunity to leverage a situation. Combined with the AT transaction, AC seems headed home to Airbus.
Cannot wait to see where AC goes for B777 replacement. A350-900/1000?
Pretty obvious that AC has recognized the error of its ways with some of the Boeing products. No more 787’s on order. Looking to extricate from some of the firm MAX orders.
Airbus seem keen to sell planes to AC. CR never wastes an opportunity to leverage a situation. Combined with the AT transaction, AC seems headed home to Airbus.
Cannot wait to see where AC goes for B777 replacement. A350-900/1000?
Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views
Makes sense to me.rudder wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:29 pm A321XLR is basically a B757-200 burning 25% less fuel.
Pretty obvious that AC has recognized the error of its ways with some of the Boeing products. No more 787’s on order. Looking to extricate from some of the firm MAX orders.
Airbus seem keen to sell planes to AC. CR never wastes an opportunity to leverage a situation. Combined with the AT transaction, AC seems headed home to Airbus.
Cannot wait to see where AC goes for B777 replacement. A350-900/1000?
For me as soon as AC decided the Max 9 was not for them, and changed their order as such, it was the first strike against the Max. It meant AC would probably need to keep the 321. Two types rather than the single type envisioned. Then the 220 purchase turned the NB fleet into 3 types.
With a fleet of 45 A220’s arriving nearly the size of an A320, and an increasing number of 321’s, the 737 is looking more and more like a third wheel rather than the future. Never mind it is still grounded.
Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views
Thats the most laughable thing I've heard in a long time.A321XLR is basically a B757-200 burning 25% less fuel.
The A321XLR is NO 757!
Have you seen all the gas tanks they have to cram in that thing to get it that far? The biggest problem is that you get the passengers there but half their bags don't because there is no room.
The only reason it has sold is because there is no real replacement for the 757....if the 797 had come to market 2 or 3 years ago - the XLR wouldn't even exist. It's simply a stopgap right now - and a poor one at that.
Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views
757 used to burn around 3600kg/hr (8000lbs/hr). The 321NEO burns around 6000lbs/hr.
757 had payload issues as well depending on whether it had the increased MGTOW supplement (250,000lbs vs 225,000lbs).
757-200 could be operated as a sardine can at 231 seats. Most operators flew it around at lower density seating configuration (see payload issues above). I used to see single class configurations of 211/217.
Assuming the 321XLR is operated at 200 seats, a range of 6 hours with passenger bags should be easily doable. This would be critical if destinations like Hawaii are being considered. However, if an operator wants to look at 7-9 hour routes then things may get complicated.
Boeing sadly refused all requests to restart 757 production. The 321XLR is a closer facsimile to the 757 than the MAX9/10 ever will be. Then there are the 737 braking issues, brake cooling, and turnaround times (main reason that AC converted MAX9 positions to MAX8).
Oh, and I doubt that you will ever see a 321XLR with a pogo stick attached.....
AC would be well served to continue the migration back to Airbus. The MAX selection over the NEO will be remembered as one of the less fortuitous fleet decisions.
757 had payload issues as well depending on whether it had the increased MGTOW supplement (250,000lbs vs 225,000lbs).
757-200 could be operated as a sardine can at 231 seats. Most operators flew it around at lower density seating configuration (see payload issues above). I used to see single class configurations of 211/217.
Assuming the 321XLR is operated at 200 seats, a range of 6 hours with passenger bags should be easily doable. This would be critical if destinations like Hawaii are being considered. However, if an operator wants to look at 7-9 hour routes then things may get complicated.
Boeing sadly refused all requests to restart 757 production. The 321XLR is a closer facsimile to the 757 than the MAX9/10 ever will be. Then there are the 737 braking issues, brake cooling, and turnaround times (main reason that AC converted MAX9 positions to MAX8).
Oh, and I doubt that you will ever see a 321XLR with a pogo stick attached.....
AC would be well served to continue the migration back to Airbus. The MAX selection over the NEO will be remembered as one of the less fortuitous fleet decisions.
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Big Pistons Forever
- Top Poster
- Posts: 5865
- Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
- Location: West Coast
Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views
The 320 series production is, pardon the pun, maxed out so even if AC wanted to go back to a all Airbus NB they are no slots available for several years. In any case AC won't buy the best airplane they will buy the cheapest. AC is just whip sawing Boeing with the threat of going back to Airbus for NB aircraft to up the pressure. AC will take all 50 Max's and leverage that for a killer deal on more 787's and 777-9's. There is IMHO, zero chance of 330 NEO or 350 buy. The 320 XLR is a 757 replacement which is fine except AC has never had any 757's so I don't see why they have to replace a segment type they have never had.
The good news is the Max will be the most tested NB flying. Even the clueless bean counter MBA's executives in Boeing understand one more crash for any technical reason and the company is done like dinner.
The good news is the Max will be the most tested NB flying. Even the clueless bean counter MBA's executives in Boeing understand one more crash for any technical reason and the company is done like dinner.
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever on Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views
boeingboy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:18 pmThats the most laughable thing I've heard in a long time.A321XLR is basically a B757-200 burning 25% less fuel.
The A321XLR is NO 757!
Have you seen all the gas tanks they have to cram in that thing to get it that far? The biggest problem is that you get the passengers there but half their bags don't because there is no room.
I agree with you at 230 pax. But at common sense passenger number the 321 XLR is very capable.
Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views
Not true. Manufacturers always retain slots on the production line. Often through leasing companies to leverage other sales.Big Pistons Forever wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:30 pm The 320 series production is, pardon the pun, maxed out so even if AC wanted to go back to a all Airbus NB they are no slots available for several years.
The sales pitch goes like this.
So you want a 321 eh? Sorry no slots until star date 20235. However we have retained some slots for customers purchasing 330/350’s. Can I interest you in one of those?
Case in point the Max order from Boeing. WestJet ordered the Max well before AC. The wait time was pushing 5 years. 35 787 orders? Imagine that suddenly 61 Max slots are available.
