Pay raise
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Jean-Pierre
- Rank 6
- Posts: 464
- Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:56 pm
Re: Pay raise
Now they can go to the arbitrator for the Air Canada seniority merger and say "Look how much we make!".
Re: Pay raise
It's still WAAAY less than AC.
If anything it helps ACPA get some raises for the first 4 years without doing much.
If anything it helps ACPA get some raises for the first 4 years without doing much.
Re: Pay raise
Not accurate at all. Comparing apples to apples, the TS 320 payscale is higher at every year than at AC. Also working 6-12 days a month at most.
Re: Pay raise
Not sure what payscales you are looking at. This is the new CA just negotiated.
I agree on the lifestyle aspect, they work less days. But they do work hard on the days they are at work. If all AC's flying was vacation destinations we too would have similar skeds.
As you can see NB is nowhere near AC NB rates. It's closer to Rouge or EMB190 rates. But the first 4 new hire rates are all higher than AC by a fair amount other than year 1. It tapers off a lot faster though after year 5 onwards.
Re: Pay raise
derateNO wrote: ↑Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:01 pmNot sure what payscales you are looking at. This is the new CA just negotiated.
I agree on the lifestyle aspect, they work less days. But they do work hard on the days they are at work. If all AC's flying was vacation destinations we too would have similar skeds.
As you can see NB is nowhere near AC NB rates. It's closer to Rouge or EMB190 rates. But the first 4 new hire rates are all higher than AC by a fair amount other than year 1. It tapers off a lot faster though after year 5 onwards.
The 320 is classified as the Wide Body payscale. The NB is the 73 and will likely be gone in a few years anyhow.
Re: Pay raise
Mainline
Flat Pay + Nav Pay
Rouge Rates
I take back the comment that it's closer to EMB190. More like A220.
Hard to factor a direct equivalent per hour rate with the Day/Night system. But these are the hard numbers, interpolate them as you please.
Also I am under the impression you don't start carrying YOS for Captain until Year 2 at AT. That's another small factor.
Don't get me wrong, I'm happy they got a raise. They needed and deserved it. But it still is lower than AC overall and them coming up a few steps will hopefully help us (at AC) when this merger goes through. I don't really care about the list, it will be what it is. I'm more worried about CR trying to get more pay concession out of the pilots to equal AT's old rates which are now off the table. Thankfully.
Flat Pay + Nav Pay
Rouge Rates
I take back the comment that it's closer to EMB190. More like A220.
Hard to factor a direct equivalent per hour rate with the Day/Night system. But these are the hard numbers, interpolate them as you please.
Also I am under the impression you don't start carrying YOS for Captain until Year 2 at AT. That's another small factor.
Don't get me wrong, I'm happy they got a raise. They needed and deserved it. But it still is lower than AC overall and them coming up a few steps will hopefully help us (at AC) when this merger goes through. I don't really care about the list, it will be what it is. I'm more worried about CR trying to get more pay concession out of the pilots to equal AT's old rates which are now off the table. Thankfully.
Re: Pay raise
Looks like transat beats rouge on every scale and year.
This basically makes ts pilots equals or better to rouge pilots from a salary point of view, especially when considering how little they actually work? Removes any sort of negotiation that ts pilots will have a better career at AC and hence have to shove it on the seniority side of things?
Or am I wrong?
Hopefully a healthy debate can be made without any maple leafs falling off anyone’s hat
This basically makes ts pilots equals or better to rouge pilots from a salary point of view, especially when considering how little they actually work? Removes any sort of negotiation that ts pilots will have a better career at AC and hence have to shove it on the seniority side of things?
Or am I wrong?
Hopefully a healthy debate can be made without any maple leafs falling off anyone’s hat
Re: Pay raise
You make a valid point. Maybe they are going to try to "merge" with ML not realizing we are all one list.
If we get their pay scales out of this at Rouge and for year 1-4 plus a 2-4% bump across the board, and their vacation entitlement and stats (9 vs their 11) I wouldn't be too unhappy.
Heck, maybe if the argument that the airline we created Rouge for now is no longer in existence AND paid more when we bought them we can just fold everything back together. The company has wanted reserve at Rouge for a long time, here is a good way to do it. Pay us all the same and paint the plane whatever colour you want.
If we get their pay scales out of this at Rouge and for year 1-4 plus a 2-4% bump across the board, and their vacation entitlement and stats (9 vs their 11) I wouldn't be too unhappy.
Heck, maybe if the argument that the airline we created Rouge for now is no longer in existence AND paid more when we bought them we can just fold everything back together. The company has wanted reserve at Rouge for a long time, here is a good way to do it. Pay us all the same and paint the plane whatever colour you want.
Re: Pay raise
That's the word I'm hearing.
They need it to streamline costs and workforce. Show up at the gate, might be working an AC flight, might be a TS flight, might be a RV flight...
The key for us is to give them nothing to do this. Mainline rules and rates no matter the colour of the fin.
They need it to streamline costs and workforce. Show up at the gate, might be working an AC flight, might be a TS flight, might be a RV flight...
The key for us is to give them nothing to do this. Mainline rules and rates no matter the colour of the fin.
Re: Pay raise
Think about the cost savings if the whole 320 list was one list. I don't understand Rouge, I really don't.altiplano wrote: ↑Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:09 am That's the word I'm hearing.
They need it to streamline costs and workforce. Show up at the gate, might be working an AC flight, might be a TS flight, might be a RV flight...
The key for us is to give them nothing to do this. Mainline rules and rates no matter the colour of the fin.
I'm sure many socialists would hate the change but the ML guys/gals would love getting some of the good overnights back.
Re: Pay raise
Fu©k socialism.
Improve the productivity.
Improve the daily guarantee.
Make it calendar day DPG.
Stop the optimizing.
edit. Sorry for the hijack. Congrats on the raises. Have you guys voted this already?
Improve the productivity.
Improve the daily guarantee.
Make it calendar day DPG.
Stop the optimizing.
edit. Sorry for the hijack. Congrats on the raises. Have you guys voted this already?
Re: Pay raise
You and I think alike.
I can't understand why we don't have calendar DPG.
I can't understand why we don't have calendar DPG.
Re: Pay raise
A 330 captain position at Transat is what, 8-10years? Air canada is 20+ years? During a merger it would be hard to say all 330 captains at Transat get a WB CA position at air canada when they have half the senority...going to be interesting!GATRKGA wrote: ↑Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:43 pm Looks like transat beats rouge on every scale and year.
This basically makes ts pilots equals or better to rouge pilots from a salary point of view, especially when considering how little they actually work? Removes any sort of negotiation that ts pilots will have a better career at AC and hence have to shove it on the seniority side of things?
Or am I wrong?
Hopefully a healthy debate can be made without any maple leafs falling off anyone’s hat
Re: Pay raise
And while people like to point out how the 320 is WB rates at AT, their WB rates in general for actual 330 flying is low.
There's a lot of factors involved and honestly, my perspective? AT should really just be happy with whatever they get. Weather it's 4/1 or 5/1, even if they get lucky and get better than that, every single outcome is an improvement to their pay and long term earning potential. You won the lottery, take it and be happy.
That being said I'm sure they will fight tooth and nail to get everything they don't deserve but think they do. Anyone who thinks a 10 year WB pilot at AT is equal to a 25 year WB at AC is out of their mind.
If you want to use the argument "well AT pilots NB make WB pay so we should merge with only ML list because we make more than Rouge" then we should be able to rebuttal that "well if that's the case your WB pilots make what our NB pilots do so everyone slides into NB lists and not WB lists"
Glad I'm not on the merger committee.
There's a lot of factors involved and honestly, my perspective? AT should really just be happy with whatever they get. Weather it's 4/1 or 5/1, even if they get lucky and get better than that, every single outcome is an improvement to their pay and long term earning potential. You won the lottery, take it and be happy.
That being said I'm sure they will fight tooth and nail to get everything they don't deserve but think they do. Anyone who thinks a 10 year WB pilot at AT is equal to a 25 year WB at AC is out of their mind.
If you want to use the argument "well AT pilots NB make WB pay so we should merge with only ML list because we make more than Rouge" then we should be able to rebuttal that "well if that's the case your WB pilots make what our NB pilots do so everyone slides into NB lists and not WB lists"
Glad I'm not on the merger committee.
Re: Pay raise
A 330 captain position at Transat is what, 8-10years?
6 years. Believe me it’s more challenging to fly a B737 than an A330...
Re: Pay raise
It's harder flying a fucking DH8 7 legs a day, 18 days a month than 3 trips to Brisbane a month. Yet you don't see DH8 pilots making $300k.
I don't get your point.
Re: Pay raise
I give 53% of my paycheck to this country, I consider myself as a socialist..
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slob driver
- Rank 3
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:01 pm
Re: Pay raise
To the Transat pilots,
Looks like a match to wj on the nb rates, which is a substantial uplift from before ( the previous trz 737 rates were used as the template for Swoop pay rates). These rates put pressure on Sunwing to raise their rates. A great pattern. The blended wb rates is a good score for a320 pilots, which should hopefully help other a320/321 pilots in Canada (ac/rouge). A little lower than wj 787 rates, and still room to go to ac a330 rates, however moving the bar in a positive direction.
I congratulate the gains made. Now hopefully those rates survive what’s going on now.
Signed
Wja 737 pilot
Looks like a match to wj on the nb rates, which is a substantial uplift from before ( the previous trz 737 rates were used as the template for Swoop pay rates). These rates put pressure on Sunwing to raise their rates. A great pattern. The blended wb rates is a good score for a320 pilots, which should hopefully help other a320/321 pilots in Canada (ac/rouge). A little lower than wj 787 rates, and still room to go to ac a330 rates, however moving the bar in a positive direction.
I congratulate the gains made. Now hopefully those rates survive what’s going on now.
Signed
Wja 737 pilot
Re: Pay raise
Couple things with this post.
"Take what we get and be happy". Actually thats generally the mentality around here provided its fair. If you think any TS pilot will take bottom of the list and be happy well than we'll see you in Arbitration, however if an agreement on a fair formula like 4/1 as you mentioned is the outcome than I don't think you will hear anyone bitching.
Next, I don't know a single person here who thinks that at 10-15 year seniority is going to keep their WB Capt seat. They would like to, but all are aware that it will most likely be gone.
As for the last sentence, what in Green acre F()K are you talking about? merge with rouge or mainline???? I thought it was all one list.
After reading many of your posts it sounds like you created this new handle to come bitch about the eventuality of what is going to take place.
"Take what we get and be happy". Actually thats generally the mentality around here provided its fair. If you think any TS pilot will take bottom of the list and be happy well than we'll see you in Arbitration, however if an agreement on a fair formula like 4/1 as you mentioned is the outcome than I don't think you will hear anyone bitching.
Next, I don't know a single person here who thinks that at 10-15 year seniority is going to keep their WB Capt seat. They would like to, but all are aware that it will most likely be gone.
As for the last sentence, what in Green acre F()K are you talking about? merge with rouge or mainline???? I thought it was all one list.
After reading many of your posts it sounds like you created this new handle to come bitch about the eventuality of what is going to take place.
derateNO wrote: ↑Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:21 am
There's a lot of factors involved and honestly, my perspective? AT should really just be happy with whatever they get. Weather it's 4/1 or 5/1, even if they get lucky and get better than that, every single outcome is an improvement to their pay and long term earning potential. You won the lottery, take it and be happy.
That being said I'm sure they will fight tooth and nail to get everything they don't deserve but think they do. Anyone who thinks a 10 year WB pilot at AT is equal to a 25 year WB at AC is out of their mind.
If you want to use the argument "well AT pilots NB make WB pay so we should merge with only ML list because we make more than Rouge" then we should be able to rebuttal that "well if that's the case your WB pilots make what our NB pilots do so everyone slides into NB lists and not WB lists"
Glad I'm not on the merger committee.
