Layoffs

[FL410AV8R]

Given the savage numbers of layoffs being proposed at WJ is there any discussion of layoffs at AC?? I've seen the reduced schedule announcements but not a peep about any workforce layoffs.

[Squid]

Trying to avoid it for training but as things stretch on.... we seem to be about 5 days behind wj in anything. Ac is hoping for a quick recovery. I’m not as optimistic as cash can only burn so long...

[derateNO]

Hard to layoff a mixed fleet of pilots from the bottom up when current speculation is this will be nearing completion in a few months.

Layoffs need to last much longer than 3-6 months to be financially viable.

[North Shore]

Wouldn't it be easier to just cut everyone down to 50% (or less) blocks?

[Squid]

There is always the concern of an airline invoking what's known as force majeure, where they would basically claim that the impact of the economic impact of this virus is basically an act of god

[whipline]

Only way to do it would be by aircraft type. And I’m sure it’s being discussed.

[Inverted2]

Probably end up being X number of positions this base/type. No way in hell they will be retraining everyone. Takes a minimum of 2 months to do an initial course and no more sim training in other countries for now. Maybe one could bump into another base on the same type.

[Curiousflyer]

Contractually, the only way they can apply layoffs is in reverse system seniority order. Not by base or aircraft type or whether or not you have a beard. Force Majeure is defined in the contract and it does not apply to layoffs.
Given these unprecedented times, management certainly could break the contract and lay off whoever they want, leaving ACPA to grieve it at a later time.

[Daniel Cooper]

management certainly could break the contract and lay off whoever they want

If they did that every pilot in the company would walk. Let's not get out of hand with these theories. It's easy to let fear get out of hand.

[digits_]

management certainly could break the contract and lay off whoever they want

If they did that every pilot in the company would walk. Let's not get out of hand with these theories. It's easy to let fear get out of hand.

Walk around in a circle maybe. Where would they go? Where would any AC pilot go, even during good times?

[SkyKing]

No pilot layoffs at Westjet, just reduced blocks. However, for many ACers on flat, EI may be the better deal. How sad.

[altiplano]

management certainly could break the contract and lay off whoever they want

If they did that every pilot in the company would walk. Let's not get out of hand with these theories. It's easy to let fear get out of hand.

Walk around in a circle maybe. Where would they go? Where would any AC pilot go, even during good times?

I think that's a shitty comment digit.

These are serious times, people are losing jobs, and that's a serious answer. AC Pilots would walk, as in set the brake, and shut it down until the company got it's head straight and respected the contract regarding furlough. That isn't going to happen anyway, because the company knows that's the way it goes and it's wrong.

While the layoffs go in reverse seniority, they would certainly run a CMSC bid showing where the reductions are. And everyone getting reduced would be able to bid what their seniority could hold. They may be (certainly are) looking how to best target the position reductions to minimize bumping, training, and displacement. ie. target junior positions, RP, NB FO, etc.

It wouldn't surprise in the near term to see the RP position drastically reduced. Surplus FOs and CAs can cover any augment required and it's 90% a fairly junior position that wouldn't trigger much bumping.

[Curiousflyer]

While the layoffs go in reverse seniority, they would certainly run a CMSC bid showing where the reductions are. And everyone getting reduced would be able to bid what their seniority could hold. They may be (certainly are) looking how to best target the position reductions to minimize bumping, training, and displacement. ie. target junior positions, RP, NB FO, etc.

It wouldn't surprise in the near term to see the RP position drastically reduced. Surplus FOs and CAs can cover any augment required and it's 90% a fairly junior position that wouldn't trigger much bumping.

Yes that’s true about the bid reduction however given the spread on junior seniority it may not be necessary.
If they laid off 500 pilots in reverse seniority that would apply to the following bases/positions:
YUL 320 FO
YUL 737 FO
YUL Rouge 767
YUL Rouge 319
YUL A220
YUL 787 RP
YYZ 787 FO
YYZ 767 FO
YYZ Rouge 767
YYZ Rouge 319
YYZ A220 FO
YYZ EMJ FO
YYZ 777 RP
YYZ 787 RP
YYZ 330 RP
YWG 320 FO
YVR 777 FO
YVR 787 FO
YVR 320 FO
YVR 737 FO
YVR 777 RP
YVR 787 RP

That’s a massive spread of positions for the bottom 500 employees and no “retraining” costs required.

[iflyroads]

What about the 400 or so 737 pilots ?

They would be allowed to bid off I'm sure or would the company still pay them for sitting at home and laying off 500 pilots?

If they bid off they will trigger training costs for sure.

[altiplano]

Interesting cross section, I'm not sure how that's all weighted, which positions would be heavier in that first 500 and would suit the staffing for any groundings they are contemplating, but I hope we don't come to it.

Don't panic, wait to see what comes.

[altiplano]

What about the 400 or so 737 pilots ?

They would be allowed to bid off I'm sure or would the company still pay them for sitting at home and laying off 500 pilots?

If they bid off they will trigger training costs for sure.

If they don't reduce the 737 that's a good thing. You don't want all those guys coming back into other fleets if they can stay parked on Boeing's dime. That would trigger MORE reduction and require fewer total pilots.

[PostmasterGeneral]

What about the 400 or so 737 pilots ?

They would be allowed to bid off I'm sure or would the company still pay them for sitting at home and laying off 500 pilots?

If they bid off they will trigger training costs for sure.

If they don't reduce the 737 that's a good thing. You don't want all those guys coming back into other fleets if they can stay parked on Boeing's dime. That would trigger MORE reduction and require fewer total pilots.

But how can you justify laying anybody off when the company has been quite ok letting 400+ guys sit at home on their asses for the last year?

Still waiting to hear when our fearless leader will do like his American cohorts and forego his salary until this is over... Laying a single employee off, no matter what their role, should come as a last resort.

If we do get into a reduced block situation, what happens to those on flat pay? Since it’s a salary based position not solely dependent on the MBG.

[montado]

What about the 400 or so 737 pilots ?

They would be allowed to bid off I'm sure or would the company still pay them for sitting at home and laying off 500 pilots?

If they bid off they will trigger training costs for sure.

If they don't reduce the 737 that's a good thing. You don't want all those guys coming back into other fleets if they can stay parked on Boeing's dime. That would trigger MORE reduction and require fewer total pilots.

But how can you justify laying anybody off when the company has been quite ok letting 400+ guys sit at home on their asses for the last year?

Still waiting to hear when our fearless leader will do like his American cohorts and forego his salary until this is over... Laying a single employee off, no matter what their role, should come as a last resort.

If we do get into a reduced block situation, what happens to those on flat pay? Since it’s a salary based position not solely dependent on the MBG.

I’m pretty certain the Max pilots sitting at home are being paid by Boeing, along with any Luther expenses attributed to the grounding. Of course things could change, but I anticipate Boeing will be paying for the grounding until the Max is back flying.

[Daniel Cooper]

Flat pay should be flat. If it is X amount when you are busy it should still be X amount when you're not. That's a risk you take when you set up something like flat salary.

[Fanblade]

At AC we have a very large blocking window for a reason. Because the company has been through this before and wants flexibility. 60 hour block months will be an immediate 25-30% pay reduction. They don't even need to ask. Just go ahead and do it.

So pay cuts will happen at AC faster than just about everywhere. Next comes negotiations from there to stave off layoffs. This will have to be longer than 6 months to cause AC pilots to be layed off.

The problem I see is a future one. What if travel/ economy changes to the point that our fleet is no longer viable?

To that I obviously can not say. I can say however that the combination of 911/ SARS was also brutal. They happened within about 16 months. SARS was 6 months. The economy tanked but demand came surging right back after.

[Fanblade]

Oh yeah. Yes AC went into bankruptcy after 911/SARS. But the AC of then versus now are very different. The AC of then was already in very rough shape when 911/SARS
hit. Today airlines that are in the shape AC was in 2003 will also fail.

[derateNO]

Flat pay should be flat. If it is X amount when you are busy it should still be X amount when you're not. That's a risk you take when you set up something like flat salary.

Bingo.

The whole point of a guarantee for such low pay is so it' can't go lower. AC pilots already work for substandard wages even more so the first 4 years.

[rudder]

The problem I see is a future one. What if travel/ economy changes to the point that our fleet is no longer viable?

Bingo.

Airlines: first to tank - last to recover.

What will the world look like in 3-6 months? Will travel demand return to pre-crisis levels? What if pockets of COVID 19 cases persist in non-North American jurisdictions? What if countries maintain entry restrictions? What if there is a round 2 next fall?

American Airlines just took out a US$1B loan for sustained liquidity. That probably isn’t near enough.

At AC I am sure one discussion is about ‘today’ and another is about ‘tomorrow’. Hope for the best but plan for the worst may become the new mantra.

As for pilots, I expect that a short term staffing solution will be implemented, with the possibility of a very different long term staffing solution if current timelines for recovery are found to be too optimistic.

[altiplano]

What about the 400 or so 737 pilots ?

They would be allowed to bid off I'm sure or would the company still pay them for sitting at home and laying off 500 pilots?

If they bid off they will trigger training costs for sure.

If they don't reduce the 737 that's a good thing. You don't want all those guys coming back into other fleets if they can stay parked on Boeing's dime. That would trigger MORE reduction and require fewer total pilots.

But how can you justify laying anybody off when the company has been quite ok letting 400+ guys sit at home on their asses for the last year?

I'm not justifying laying anyone off. That's not my job or position to say.

But I think your attitude about that is wrong.

Would you rather those 400 737 guys all get reduced off the 737 to other fleets that are short flying as is and cause even more layoffs or lower time blocks?

Do you blame the 737 guys for their situation?

The 737 guys are being paid and are at the company's whim - to show up for any assigned training and to be ready to go when the company says "Go". That's against the contract and it benefits the junior members who can hold seats they would otherwise not be in, and it benefits the company. Every one of the 737 CAs at the time of the grounding could bump current 320/319/220/EMJ CAs out of their seats. FOs mostly have some relative seniority now too for that matter and could sit on top of other junior pilots or bump them off other lists.

I don't think it's easy for most, I think a lot would rather have been reduced and gotten their course right back. Or gotten the opportunity to go back to their old fleets for same pay and get an extra week of vacation per month, plus extra premiums like a handful were offered.

Anyway, I'm sure they're figuring it out and I wouldn't be surprised if you see it reduced at least partially and junior members are worse off when 737 reductions parachute in senior onto other fleets.

I want to see the least amount of reductions possible from any and all fleets and seats. That's the best outcome.

[7ECA]

Be happy you're not like EasyJet, being asked to take 3 months unpaid leave - oh, and the company just doled out £170 million in dividends to shareholders, all the while asking for a bailout.