Layoffs

[160tonoaha]

Article 9

First three sentences.

If your intent is to stir the pot I won’t be bitting.

It’s not.

Let me take a look.

[Kaykay]

Article 9

First three sentences.

If your intent is to stir the pot I won’t be bitting.

It’s not.

Let me take a look.

Ask your reps a question like this, not an anonymous forum. Move on from your rather blatant attempt to stir the pot.

[thrust set]

But wait !!!! Everyone STOP and take a deep breath, I was reading the AC pilot forum and there are a couple pilots that said we signed the MOU too fast.

We could have asked for more .

I know, shit we could have asked for a raise

[Kaykay]

But wait !!!! Everyone STOP and take a deep breath, I was reading the AC pilot forum and there are a couple pilots that said we signed the MOU too fast.

We could have asked for more .

I know, shit we could have asked for a raise

Oh I love a good chuckle. Thanks for that.

[rudder]

AA got 620 to take early retirement with a far superior offer than the terms offered via the AC MOU. AA just opened another 650 spots for early. They lowered the qualifying age for round 2 from 63 to 62. If they get 1200 that will be about 8% of the list (a higher percentage of actives).

[RippleRock]

I fail to see why AC doesn't offer a better package. The pension plan is --way-- overfunded.

I guess it makes more sense to pay them $16k a month to wait till things start rolling....whenever that is.

Any ideas?

[altiplano]

But wait !!!! Everyone STOP and take a deep breath, I was reading the AC pilot forum and there are a couple pilots that said we signed the MOU too fast.

We could have asked for more .

I know, shit we could have asked for a raise

Didn't we?

Now there are 75% government wage bailouts.

Do you think we should have known about that?

How about early retirement numbers? Maybe we should have quantified that? Or put a dollar value on what they wanted to achieve?

[tallyho]

To use the obvious reference, the first group of pilots that were laid off hadn't even finished their initial training and they are not being let go as if they were probationers. They will be recalled in seniority, have the option of retaining their benefits and are still members of ACPA etc. No clause required.




Let talk like that go straight to the trash bin.
[/quote]

Good, would be a terrible spot to be caught in otherwise.

So which part of the acpa clause protects someone under probation right now to not just be let go cause they’re on probation?

For example, how many max guys are still on probation almost 2 years in?

I really hope I’m wrong. Maybe you can point me to a clause that proves I am.

Thanks fanblade
[/quote]

[Liftvsdrag]

Quick question regarding the guys and girls that got their GS cancelled a couple days prior to their official start date.
Would we get called back in order of seniority or is it too bad so sad, start from scratch?
A lot of us (all?) didn't get taken back from our old employer and now at every interview the question of why we left our previous job will have to be answered by "well I was supposed to start at AC" ... It tells a potential employer that we could leave the moment AC hires again and therefor would think twice about hiring us.
At least someone who officially got hired knows she/he, at some point, will get hired back and it's a matter of time. For us... Most companies wouldn't take us because they would be afraid we would leave quickly (and it's totally understandable)and we don't even know if AC would take us back at the end. I know quite a few from this groundschool and a lot are nervous and don't want to bother HR as they are probably very busy. So if anybody here knows either N or J and could either reply here or send me a PM, that would be greatly appreciated and I would share the info.

Good luck to everyone getting layed off, stay safe and hopefully this nightmare will end before next spring.

[FL-280]

Honestly, get a lawyer and sue them. The effects on your career are horrible and that notice was very questionable. all you want is a guaranteed number for a call back, I get that. And you should have it IF you signed the offer letter

[Fanblade]

Quick question regarding the guys and girls that got their GS cancelled a couple days prior to their official start date.
Would we get called back in order of seniority or is it too bad so sad, start from scratch?
A lot of us (all?) didn't get taken back from our old employer and now at every interview the question of why we left our previous job will have to be answered by "well I was supposed to start at AC" ... It tells a potential employer that we could leave the moment AC hires again and therefor would think twice about hiring us.
At least someone who officially got hired knows she/he, at some point, will get hired back and it's a matter of time. For us... Most companies wouldn't take us because they would be afraid we would leave quickly (and it's totally understandable)and we don't even know if AC would take us back at the end. I know quite a few from this groundschool and a lot are nervous and don't want to bother HR as they are probably very busy. So if anybody here knows either N or J and could either reply here or send me a PM, that would be greatly appreciated and I would share the info.

Good luck to everyone getting layed off, stay safe and hopefully this nightmare will end before next spring.

Get a hold of someone at ACPA. They will get you the info you seek. It will also keep you on their radar. Call head office and ask who you should speak to. That way you are bugging ACPA, the organization you will eventually be paying to represent you, rather than HR.

[Transition9er2]

Honestly, get a lawyer and sue them. The effects on your career are horrible and that notice was very questionable. all you want is a guaranteed number for a call back, I get that. And you should have it IF you signed the offer letter

Wondering why legal action should be the answer here?

I'm sure as soon as any legal action happens any chance of a return to AC will be stripped away and how long/likely would it take to get any kind of compensation out of AC to make up for however long this downturn takes?

Seems a bit aggressive.

No?

T.

[TT1900]

Heard from an MLO that only 70 of the old boys took the early retirement package.....thanks boys

Why do some seem to think the “old boys” owe it to others to retire? Most, if not all, have been furloughed during previous downturns, many more than once. They stuck it out and are now at the top of the pile. I’d say they’ve earned the right to stay if desired.

[flashheart]

Heard from an MLO that only 70 of the old boys took the early retirement package.....thanks boys

Why do some seem to think the “old boys” owe it to others to retire? Most, if not all, have been furloughed during previous downturns, many more than once. They stuck it out and are now at the top of the pile. I’d say they’ve earned the right to stay if desired.

No one owes anything to anyone.

No one "earned it". Simply - they didn't die and passed a basic flight test.

What I think people were hoping:

- They had a good run and can leave before $shit really hits the fan and have a graceful departure

- Be remembered for the best of times in aviation and not what is inbound - flying in fear, wearing a F'n face mask, locked up in hotels, and watching co workers get booted to the street, downbids, commutes from hell due to lack of flights - while they munch up their salary

- Unless they were just awful with money and totally disconnected from reality, can live a financial stressless life while others stress out on how to pay rent, mortgages, fund their CWIPP pension plan which is based on earnings not years of service

- Don't get COVID-19 and deal with implications of that

The ones that stay and subsequently decide to deal with any of above, better not complain for a second. They had a pretty decent door offered to them

[flashheart]

.

[Liftvsdrag]

Thanks for the tips everyone.
My understanding is that I do have legal ground but... do I want/need to go there? I hope not (and I doubt it). I do trust the HR department will do what I believe is the right thing when the time comes.
Just in case I will contact ACPA to at least make myself known and try to seek a solution and/or more information. I'm sure they are very busy as well at the moment but one can always ask.

Thanks again everyone and please take care of each other.

[Sharklasers]

You had never started at AC and HR is reluctant to keep a pool due to the last group of poolies threatening to sue when PML 1.0 came out.
I would contact HR and ACPA but understand ACPA has no legal grounds to represent you as you were not a dues paying member and never employed by AC. This is a terrible situation and I am sympathetic and hope to fly with you soon but if this recovery goes on 1-3 years, the operators get their let for the FDT regs, throw in a merger and it could be a long time (years) before AC requires new blood.

It looks like if you did sue your remedy would be 3 months lost wages, better then nothing but the court cannot compel AC to hire you while laying off 16500 employees.

https://duttonlaw.ca/rescinded-employment-offers/

[L39Guy]

Heard from an MLO that only 70 of the old boys took the early retirement package.....thanks boys

Why do some seem to think the “old boys” owe it to others to retire? Most, if not all, have been furloughed during previous downturns, many more than once. They stuck it out and are now at the top of the pile. I’d say they’ve earned the right to stay if desired.

No one owes anything to anyone.

No one "earned it". Simply - they didn't die and passed a basic flight test.

What I think people were hoping:

- They had a good run and can leave before $shit really hits the fan and have a graceful departure

- Be remembered for the best of times in aviation and not what is inbound - flying in fear, wearing a F'n face mask, locked up in hotels, and watching co workers get booted to the street, downbids, commutes from hell due to lack of flights - while they munch up their salary

- Unless they were just awful with money and totally disconnected from reality, can live a financial stressless life while others stress out on how to pay rent, mortgages, fund their CWIPP pension plan which is based on earnings not years of service

- Don't get COVID-19 and deal with implications of that

The ones that stay and subsequently decide to deal with any of above, better not complain for a second. They had a pretty decent door offered to them

I took the package for all of the reasons mentioned above plus two others.

First, I remember all too well nearly getting laid off in the 90's and it was colleagues that either retired early or took LOA's that saved my bacon. My turn to return the favour to the next generation.

The second reason is related to the first; my retirement will mean one colleague will keep their job, their income, etc. when they would have otherwise been sent out onto the street likely with a mortgage, kids, etc.

When one does the math with our DB plan combined with income splitting, I would be working for $25 or $26 per credit hour. That makes no sense.

Good luck everyone. I hope that this mess gets sorted out soon and we can return to the "new" normal. My hope too is that sometime in the future when a downturn occurs - and there will be others - that those on this forum and elsewhere who wish that others would step aside do so themselves when they are in the same situation I am today.

[Sharklasers]

Why do some seem to think the “old boys” owe it to others to retire? Most, if not all, have been furloughed during previous downturns, many more than once. They stuck it out and are now at the top of the pile. I’d say they’ve earned the right to stay if desired.

No one owes anything to anyone.

No one "earned it". Simply - they didn't die and passed a basic flight test.

What I think people were hoping:

- They had a good run and can leave before $shit really hits the fan and have a graceful departure

- Be remembered for the best of times in aviation and not what is inbound - flying in fear, wearing a F'n face mask, locked up in hotels, and watching co workers get booted to the street, downbids, commutes from hell due to lack of flights - while they munch up their salary

- Unless they were just awful with money and totally disconnected from reality, can live a financial stressless life while others stress out on how to pay rent, mortgages, fund their CWIPP pension plan which is based on earnings not years of service

- Don't get COVID-19 and deal with implications of that

The ones that stay and subsequently decide to deal with any of above, better not complain for a second. They had a pretty decent door offered to them

I took the package for all of the reasons mentioned above plus two others.

First, I remember all too well nearly getting laid off in the 90's and it was colleagues that either retired early or took LOA's that saved my bacon. My turn to return the favour to the next generation.

The second reason is related to the first; my retirement will mean one colleague will keep their job, their income, etc. when they would have otherwise been sent out onto the street likely with a mortgage, kids, etc.

When one does the math with our DB plan combined with income splitting, I would be working for $25 or $26 per credit hour. That makes no sense.

Good luck everyone. I hope that this mess gets sorted out soon and we can return to the "new" normal. My hope too is that sometime in the future when a downturn occurs - and there will be others - that those on this forum and elsewhere who wish that others would step aside do so themselves when they are in the same situation I am today.

Kudos sir. I hope you have a long and happy retirement.
How big is your boat?

[flashheart]

I think the better question would be is how fast is your plane...congrats