A "NEW" One List?

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cloak
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by cloak »

Gear Jerker wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:59 pm ...Seriously guys... I have an open mind here. Given the scale and scope of this disruption to our industry, why is 0 concessions for maximum layoffs a good thing that you're in favour of?...
The short answer, it is not. Given the scale of reduction seen worldwide, it would be unwise to "hold the line" in this case against the people that live in the same house! It is reasonable to negotiate to minimize lay-offs with clear provisions for recovering previous blocks and recall of laid off pilots. It would be against the principle of a "union" to advocate for full pay for a small group while many are on lay-offs. Once on lay-offs, the recalls will take place very gradually and only when absolutely warranted by economic activities and demand, likely some will not make it back.

flyinhigh wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:43 am ...Is there language during recall that prevents an Encore pilot from being called to go to the 37? and holding a 37 driver on the Q. (i.e, The called back individual does not have the experience to be a Q captain yet. Can they hold the 37 driver on the Q in this case)...
A pilot will only be recalled to previous bargaining unit, i.e. WestJet/Swoop or Encore. Recalls come before any flows, meaning pilots at Encore, regardless of their number on the so called One list, will have to wait until ALL recalls are complete BEFORE they can flow to WJ/WO. As WJ and WO are a common bargaining unit, one can be recalled to either. To those unhappy with this, one remedy would be to make them separate bargaining units, still on the same seniority list like Encore. That way one may bump down to Swoop if one wishes, but one will not be forced to go through it during recall.

Red1 wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:19 am ... Hold the line is a nice token statement, until your collecting EI and out of a job for two years, then it means nothing. I still hold out some hope that a deal will get done, once cooler heads prevail and people begin to realize the devastating impact this will have on everyone in the pilot group.
Indeed, this unprecedented global challenge demands fostering new levels of trust through better communication and cooperation.
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FL410AV8R
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by FL410AV8R »

From some of the information coming down the pipe I think it is fair to say that some of the company's positions/demands were unreasonable and clearly an attempt to gut the CA and take advantage of the current crisis. They were looking for an easing of scope, either to expand Encore or more likely Swoop at the expense of WJ Mainline, the ability to recall out of seniority and some further douchebaggery with ESP/PSP.

I applaud our MEC and negotiating team for refusing to entertain such overreaching demands. If and when the company takes a reasonable position I am sure they know where to find our negotiators.
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goldeneagle
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by goldeneagle »

cloak wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:43 am A pilot will only be recalled to previous bargaining unit, i.e. WestJet/Swoop or Encore. Recalls come before any flows, meaning pilots at Encore, regardless of their number on the so called One list, will have to wait until ALL recalls are complete BEFORE they can flow to WJ/WO.
So if a 37 driver bumps to the Q, they become part of the Encore group. Would all the 37 guys have to be recalled before they can flow back to the 37 ?

Curious minds are curious, is this the downside to bumping ?
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Aeroncachump
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Aeroncachump »

goldeneagle wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:58 am
cloak wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:43 am A pilot will only be recalled to previous bargaining unit, i.e. WestJet/Swoop or Encore. Recalls come before any flows, meaning pilots at Encore, regardless of their number on the so called One list, will have to wait until ALL recalls are complete BEFORE they can flow to WJ/WO.
So if a 37 driver bumps to the Q, they become part of the Encore group. Would all the 37 guys have to be recalled before they can flow back to the 37 ?

Curious minds are curious, is this the downside to bumping ?
Flow doesn't apply to WestJet pilots who bumped to Encore through a reduction bid. You maintain your recall rights to mainline WJ.
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Blue42
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Blue42 »

FL410AV8R wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:47 am From some of the information coming down the pipe I think it is fair to say that some of the company's positions/demands were unreasonable and clearly an attempt to gut the CA and take advantage of the current crisis. They were looking for an easing of scope, either to expand Encore or more likely Swoop at the expense of WJ Mainline, the ability to recall out of seniority and some further douchebaggery with ESP/PSP.

I applaud our MEC and negotiating team for refusing to entertain such overreaching demands. If and when the company takes a reasonable position I am sure they know where to find our negotiators.
Wouldn’t it be great if our MEC would actually communicate some of this information to its membership!!!
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Blue42
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Blue42 »

goldeneagle wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:58 am
cloak wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:43 am A pilot will only be recalled to previous bargaining unit, i.e. WestJet/Swoop or Encore. Recalls come before any flows, meaning pilots at Encore, regardless of their number on the so called One list, will have to wait until ALL recalls are complete BEFORE they can flow to WJ/WO.
So if a 37 driver bumps to the Q, they become part of the Encore group. Would all the 37 guys have to be recalled before they can flow back to the 37 ?

Curious minds are curious, is this the downside to bumping ?
No, flow doesn’t apply to those that have been bumped down. They are recalled by seniority. But 737 guys laid off will not be recalled to Encore either, junior Encore crews will be recalled to Encore first.
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hurtin'albertan
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by hurtin'albertan »

FL410AV8R wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:47 am From some of the information coming down the pipe I think it is fair to say that some of the company's positions/demands were unreasonable and clearly an attempt to gut the CA and take advantage of the current crisis. They were looking for an easing of scope, either to expand Encore or more likely Swoop at the expense of WJ Mainline, the ability to recall out of seniority and some further douchebaggery with ESP/PSP.

I applaud our MEC and negotiating team for refusing to entertain such overreaching demands. If and when the company takes a reasonable position I am sure they know where to find our negotiators.
I've heard very similar to this thru the rumour mill. If true, then I fully support them not making a deal to erode our scope and contract. Can you imagine?

Typical WJ maneuver. Never let a crisis go to waste. :roll:
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Madman
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Madman »

FlyingMonkey wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:45 am
Madman wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:19 pm WestJets biggest problem...ALPA, and the incompetence that their decisions made by those to represent and make the best decisions for ALL its members.
You don’t make any sense.
I was very clear and direct. The only thing that doesn’t make sense, is our Union “Leaders”. To keep this short and simple, let’s look at the last couple of weeks leading up to this and formulate our own opinion...that’s what it is, every pilots own opinion. Here’s a couple of examples.
-The WJAMEC email to its members on April 22nd was to “...give us a brief update...” on the situation, which was “We cannot give additional detail...” They should be embarrassed to release that Update. Ludicrous.
-The WJAMEC email to its members on April 23rd was to inform its members that negotiations have ended and the company is moving forward with lay-offs. Our negotiators decided to “hold the line”, and force the company to exercise its right to lay-off 1700 pilots.

I was under the impression that one of the responsibilities of a Union, is to protect the majority of its members, not the minority. This Union did the exact opposite and threw the vast majority of pilots under the bus...or truck, if that’s we will operate next. They, our MEC, are the “Tards” as far as I’m concerned. Well done guys. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
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mbav8r
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by mbav8r »

Madman wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:29 pm
FlyingMonkey wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:45 am
Madman wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:19 pm WestJets biggest problem...ALPA, and the incompetence that their decisions made by those to represent and make the best decisions for ALL its members.
You don’t make any sense.
I was very clear and direct. The only thing that doesn’t make sense, is our Union “Leaders”. To keep this short and simple, let’s look at the last couple of weeks leading up to this and formulate our own opinion...that’s what it is, every pilots own opinion. Here’s a couple of examples.
-The WJAMEC email to its members on April 22nd was to “...give us a brief update...” on the situation, which was “We cannot give additional detail...” They should be embarrassed to release that Update. Ludicrous.
-The WJAMEC email to its members on April 23rd was to inform its members that negotiations have ended and the company is moving forward with lay-offs. Our negotiators decided to “hold the line”, and force the company to exercise its right to lay-off 1700 pilots.

I was under the impression that one of the responsibilities of a Union, is to protect the majority of its members, not the minority. This Union did the exact opposite and threw the vast majority of pilots under the bus...or truck, if that’s we will operate next. They, our MEC, are the “Tards” as far as I’m concerned. Well done guys. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
What would you give to save 200,300,400 or 500 more jobs?
If the rumour was true and WJ Management asked for major contract concessions to keep some pilots on payroll, possibly at a reduced monthly block, would you have agreed to that?
This is either a situation where the MEC is calling their bluff or it signals to me that it is going to be a much longer road to recovery than anyone is anticipating. If WJ is willing to train a few hundred mainline pilots to fly a Q, it’s not for 3 or 6 months.
Be thankful you can expect to come back to your current contract, not something much worse.
As for the information not forthcoming, all negotiations are typically under non disclosure agreements, they literally can’t say anything.
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Dyna
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Dyna »

Madman is the kind of person that believes, within the depth of his soul, that ALPA is responsible for the horrible WAWCON at Swoop. They blame ALPA for that shit show, not the company that created it. It’s scary that someone so mind numbingly stupid is capable of making it this far in our industry.

At least he found a somewhat educated person to proof read his post.
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Furloughed
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Furloughed »

ALPA... Why is anybody shocked? They did what they always do. Protect the upper seniority pilots and sell out the junior ones. This is just a very extreme example. 1700 extreme which in my opinion is probably at least 600 more than it should have been considering the range initially presented was 550 - 1700 layoffs; you would think there had to be a middle ground. But making sure a more junior pilot can pay his mortgage isn't as important as ensuring that a senior guy can maintain his standard of living uninterrupted. And of course protect his 20% ESPP to ensure the retirement plans aren't affected either. I know senior guys have been through this before, I have as well as I've been around the block. And it's not a shot at them, more so our "negotiators". I know the argument is going to be they were acting on the instructions of the members. I am sure the members past the top 600 would have voted for some concessions if spelled out and offered. This should have been communicated prior to the deadline with the agreement of all parties prior to the vote. Not negotiating in public, just presenting other options and let people read between the lines of what was in store otherwise. Our received "communications" was pretty well non-existant other than how hard they were working and getting nowhere. That in itself was giving people a chance to rethink the original survey. And remember, this wasn't about the Airline playing hardball to increase profits, it is about survival. I am afraid this will become a reality to all of us in the not so distant future.

Being part of a Union is supposed to be about Brother/Sisterhood and the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few. This isn't going to be a short term inconvenience for the 1700. Delta has stated 24 to 36 months minimum to recover, and that is probably an absolute best case scenario for WJ. CEWS and EI will be long exhausted before the majority of pilots are recalled. And that's assuming there is anything to be recalled to. The current WJ we left behind may very well not be around to return to. I imagine nothing is off the table right now with Onyx.

And if ALPA is all about Pilots and Unity, how did 2 separate units of ALPA pilots wind up bargaining against each other? As WJ/Encore?Swoop were all affected by this negotiation, shouldn't they have all been sitting in the same room? Nope, dog eat dog. A last minute Hail Mary by Encore to try and save their own jobs, and hope that it would become unpalatable for the WJ mainline guys. But Encore guys are mainly young and inexperienced. This is their first crack for the most part of dealing with ALPA and reduction negotiations. They should have known that the other bargaining group would flush them as long as working for Encore paid $1 more than CEWS or EI. Lesson learned boys. Although I have to admit it is probably a humorous read now to go back to the "Betrayal" thread after the initial PTA vote failed. Careful what you wish for.....

The good news (if you can call it that) is that Trudope is possibly extending the CEWS to Sept. That will keep our $847 per week and delay the 44 weeks of EI clock from starting until then. Believe me, for those of you that aren't willing to go back up north, instruct, or head overseas to some lets say less than desirable location, you will need the entire 44 weeks of EI. And when I say $847 per week, I mean before Tax, EI, CPP and I am sure....ALPA Dues. They must have got the Libs to invent the CEWS Program, because they will want their 2% as it's "earnings" and ALPA figures it is entitled to it. And then when they find they can't take your 2% off your EI, I am sure you will be told that they feel terrible for you, but unfortunately won't be able to maintain your shi##y $20,000 life insurance policy. So after all your dues paid so far, and now you have lost your job, zero mitigation, you won't even have the lousy $20K policy for a funeral etc if God forbid you needed it. I'm not sure, but you may still receive your ALPA magazine. Pretty sure you will get the USA Propaganda as that's where most of our dues go anyway. And I am sure we will still get the ALPA Daily email at 10am like clockwork though, I know that's the highlight of my day. I also look forward to the MEC email but for some reason during the "negotiations" there really wasn't too many of those. Guess they must have been too busy.

Anyway, stay safe, healthy and remember; "Hold The Line"
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80ktszzz
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by 80ktszzz »

I think what he’s saying is the fact that ALPA couldn’t save any jobs at mainline but could at encore was disappointing, and what’s Swoop got to do with it? Most of those guys will be let go no matter what anyways, right?

Question, if the WAWCON at Swoop is so bad did anyone from mainline take the seats from the results of the PSB? Just wondering.....

Stay safe.....
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cloak
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by cloak »

Blue42 wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:09 pm Wouldn’t it be great if our MEC would actually communicate some of this information to its membership!!!
Indeed, very good point! If truly the offer by the company was so bad, the MEC could easily share it to garner more understanding and support. Logic would dictate otherwise. In truth, the MEC has been slow to communicate, and lacked cooperation, inclusivity and transparency; ironically the very things of which they accused management during their union drive! The MEC must behave like an elected body responsible to its members as opposed to a benevolent king who knows better!

During the worst downturn in recent history, it seems unreasonable and peculiar to focus on "lay-off mechanics and recall rights" as opposed to mitigation! Instead of rumors and opinions, including this one, the MEC could communicate the offer and other developments clearly and transparently and let the membership decide in a democratic way, as other ALPA shops have done. That will be unifying!
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Last edited by cloak on Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mbav8r
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by mbav8r »

80ktszzz wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:36 pm I think what he’s saying is the fact that ALPA couldn’t save any jobs at mainline but could at encore was disappointing, and what’s Swoop got to do with it? Most of those guys will be let go no matter what anyways, right?

Question, if the WAWCON at Swoop is so bad did anyone from mainline take the seats from the results of the PSB? Just wondering.....

Stay safe.....
Think about that for a second, the same management pulls all the strings.
So, what actually happened, Encore pilots were given some type of top up pay for the delay to the flow and reduced block to save some jobs. By default this makes the job at Encore less appealing to WJ mainline pilots, the same management tries to extract concessions from their more expensive pilot group and likely some type of mitigation hoping they take the mitigation and most don’t transfer to Encore.
They hold the line, the end result, most of the Encore pilots won’t see a dime of the top up pay because they are hitting the streets, really, it’s a rock and a hard place for the WJ MEC. it’s not over until the layoffs are in effect and it does not do anyone any good to take huge concessions unless they are temporary and even that has risks, sets a precedent for arbitration.
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Madman
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Madman »

Dyna wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:02 pm Madman is the kind of person that believes, within the depth of his soul, that ALPA is responsible for the horrible WAWCON at Swoop. They blame ALPA for that shit show, not the company that created it. It’s scary that someone so mind numbingly stupid is capable of making it this far in our industry.

At least he found a somewhat educated person to proof read his post.
Hey Dyna. Sounds like I struck a nerve by the looks of your response.
At no point did I suggest anything as it relates to WAWCON for either WestJet, Swoop or Encore...I have no idea where you read that??? I only refer to the recent actions of the MEC.
Dyna is the type of person that believes within the depth of his soul, he is somehow entitled, which shows his level of immaturity.
I hope you weren’t furloughed from WJ Proper, as you’ll be recalled to Swoop first (I hope you turn it down) and see the first year pay and associated working conditions you pointed out in your post. Let’s see if the decision is made to paint another 20 aircraft in Swoop livery. They are after all just sitting, with nothing to do.

Oh, it’s been “proof read” by my 6 year old...just for you Buddy!!!!!

Seriously though
Take care and stay safe
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cloak
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by cloak »

80ktszzz wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:36 pm Question, if the WAWCON at Swoop is so bad did anyone from mainline take the seats from the results of the PSB? Just wondering.....
Apparently quite a few, including association members that fought Swoop, which is ironic and shows the realities of life are not always idealistic!
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Last edited by cloak on Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
cloak
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by cloak »

Furloughed wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:17 pm ALPA... Why is anybody shocked? They did what they always do. Protect the upper seniority pilots and sell out the junior ones. This is just a very extreme example. 1700 extreme which in my opinion is probably at least 600 more than it should have been considering the range initially presented was 550 - 1700 layoffs; you would think there had to be a middle ground. ... I'm not sure, but you may still receive your ALPA magazine. Pretty sure you will get the USA Propaganda as that's where most of our dues go anyway. And I am sure we will still get the ALPA Daily email at 10am like clockwork though, I know that's the highlight of my day. I also look forward to the MEC email but for some reason during the "negotiations" there really wasn't too many of those. Guess they must have been too busy.
Your disappointment is understandable. They say a union is as good as the people that are on it. Likely there needs to be more diversity among the association members from across the membership to truly represent all, that is if ALPA survives this rout! At any rate, such important decisions must be made through majority vote and proper ratification. Again, that was done in the states and there is no reason it can't be done at WestJet.
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Madman
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Madman »

cloak wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:18 pm
Furloughed wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:17 pm ALPA... Why is anybody shocked? They did what they always do. Protect the upper seniority pilots and sell out the junior ones. This is just a very extreme example. 1700 extreme which in my opinion is probably at least 600 more than it should have been considering the range initially presented was 550 - 1700 layoffs; you would think there had to be a middle ground. ... I'm not sure, but you may still receive your ALPA magazine. Pretty sure you will get the USA Propaganda as that's where most of our dues go anyway. And I am sure we will still get the ALPA Daily email at 10am like clockwork though, I know that's the highlight of my day. I also look forward to the MEC email but for some reason during the "negotiations" there really wasn't too many of those. Guess they must have been too busy.
Your disappointment is understandable. They say a union is as good as the people that are on it. Likely there needs to be more diversity among the association members from across the membership to truly represent all, that is if ALPA survives this rout! At any rate, such important decisions must be made through majority vote and proper ratification. Again, that was done in the states and there is no reason it can't be done at WestJet.
Exactly.
ALPA is a US of A born association, and works really hard for our US members, but not so much for us Canadians. Why?
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Dyna
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by Dyna »

It has nothing to do with ALPA, it’s up to the entire pilot group to pull in the same direction in order makes gains. I’ve heard so many people say they wished we were with CUPE, or that JM, or Onex would swoop in (no pun intended) and save us. It doesn’t matter what union/association name is on the door, it’s up us. It’s not like ALPA is sitting in Herndon with the ability to fix this relationship with WJ and are simply ignoring us because we’re Canadian. JM said it at wing night, he can’t fix this. We have to do that ourselves.

The sooner the anti-ALPA crowd get over the fact that we certified, the better. ALPA is here. If anyone doesn’t like the direction we are headed, get involved and work for positive changes. Volunteer, join a committee, throw your name in for LEC/MEC positions. WJ loves a fractured pilot group, we need to stop feeding it.

I’m not an ALPA fanboy by any means. I’m certainly not happy with comms from our reps through this PSB, or how they have allowed the company to behave without any pushback. Fly it and grieve it, call your manager and fight it out yourself, etc. That’s not a strong stance and allows the company to continue to wipe their behinds with our CA. That’s not because of ALPA, it’s because WJ pilots have allowed it to happen. We need stronger leadership and a united pilot group with a backbone.

Madman, I realize my last post goes against what I wrote above. I apologize for making it personal. I hope we can all come together and repair this fractured pilot group. Things will never improve otherwise.
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fish4life
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Re: A "NEW" One List?

Post by fish4life »

What is the seniority of the negotiators at WestJet? Did they keep their jobs?
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