I'd be pretty pissed off. Those two losers just changed that company forever by offering to pay for training and do free work. Especially when the industry is good...nice F-ing work boys.
What as$holes, and i'd be very inclined to let them both know. And if that mean alittle meeting in the parking lot, so be it.
Time to find another job, and leave.
Just remember what goes around around, comes around (read my signature)
Cheers.
Coworker Friction
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
bizjet_mania wrote:personally id go streaking before a major charter is about to depart.... but thats just me.... say who wants to go streaking! i cant believe they have websites and organize group streakings.
From the quad to the gymnasium. Come on, Snoop. Everyone is doing it.
If riding in a plane is FLYING. Then Riding in a boat is SWIMMING!
Definitely warrants a 'morals and ethics' discussion with the two after work, before or after giving notice. Explain to them why it is you are forced to move on from a decent position. Explain to them why it is that pilots are generallly seen by managers as an expense; nothing more than another quart of oil. And by all means, as far as the employer goes, be as honourable as possible. The boss isn't the problem here: your co-workers are. You can be sure that quitting without notice, etc. WILL come back to haunt you. Times are indeed getting better, but employers still have the upper hand and will for a long time the further up the ladder you go. Good luck.
Aviation- the hardest way possible to make an easy living!
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
suck it up
first off decide if your integrity is more important to u than flying.If not carry on reading the adjacent posts. secondly don't believe a word u hear on this board as, unless they had daddy or uncy sort them out for their first job , they washed planes , and cleaned crappers , helped out the owner with his new porch got payed 3rd world country wages and didn't say a word, and have obviously forgot where they came from. thirdly every pilot pimped out his wife or mother, friend, buddy , sorta friend, co-worker for an hour of flight training. why else would u have to ask these questions if the above wasn't true ? If everyone in aviation before you had the resolve to ask your questions you wouldn't have to.These are the fact of aviation live with 'em or find something else to do
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Mitch Cronin
- Rank 8
- Posts: 914
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:15 am
- Location: Right beside my dog again...
Re: suck it up
jll19 wrote:first off decide if your integrity is more important to u than flying.If not carry on reading the adjacent posts. secondly don't believe a word u hear on this board as, unless they had daddy or uncy sort them out for their first job , they washed planes , and cleaned crappers , helped out the owner with his new porch got payed 3rd world country wages and didn't say a word, and have obviously forgot where they came from. thirdly every pilot pimped out his wife or mother, friend, buddy , sorta friend, co-worker for an hour of flight training. why else would u have to ask these questions if the above wasn't true ? If everyone in aviation before you had the resolve to ask your questions you wouldn't have to.These are the fact of aviation live with 'em or find something else to do
Ok , so we just found out who one of those two is, now who's the other guy?jll19,
That attitude is the reason. It's people who accept BS that make BS reign. I think you'll find there are more pilots than the original poster here who are not willing to accept it than you think. But when people think they'd better screw the other guy before they get screwed, all is lost. If integrity is less important to you than flying, when you've finally lost everything, including your job, because you had no integrity, you'll have absolutely nothing, and nobody will care..
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metal overcast
- Rank 3
- Posts: 159
- Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:25 am
Jill, I'll be proud to tell you that I paid my dues. I did every shitty job there was from washing airplanes, emptying the hunny bucket, helping maintenance, worked 48 hr days w/ the 1.5 hr sleep on the office desk, office reno's "including getting hit with 600 volts from a commercial lighting system" going thru at least 6 companies that didn't make it, "2 that didn't like my attitude"and taking a huge paycut every time I take a step up in the industry. I never sold out my integrity, never fucked a buddy, and still ride tall, shoot straight and speak the truth. I still continue helping people get a leg up anyway I can because of the lowlife scumbags that weasel their way through the system. We all stand together or fall together.
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Hockey Helmet and Bib
- Rank 0
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 5:59 am
- Location: Short Bus
Jll19
I can honestly say that I have never worked with anyone who has lowered themselves that much to get ahead (gone to school with a few). I can also tell with you with a clear conscience that I have also never done anything so cheap. Sure I worked slave wage as an instructor my first instructing gig and was paid below min wage – when I left I threatened to take him to the labour board just to see the look on his face (stupid but sweet). Since that job, I have been paid fairly (sometimes low, but legal).
Its poor attitudes like yours that has, and are continuing to lower the standard of this industry. Acts (and attitudes) like the above mentioned are inexcusable, and should not be tolerated.
Besides, what the hell is the point?
Sure you MAY get ahead (in the short term), but what happens a few years down the road? You piss too many people off in this small industry and you will black list yourself. I know a few. Admittedly some of these a$$holes do make it to where ever it is they want to go. But at the end of the day, they still have to look themselves in the mirror.
Personally, I’d rather take the scenic route and make good friends/times rather than step on and piss off my fellow coworkers.
ah good times...
Cheers.
I can honestly say that I have never worked with anyone who has lowered themselves that much to get ahead (gone to school with a few). I can also tell with you with a clear conscience that I have also never done anything so cheap. Sure I worked slave wage as an instructor my first instructing gig and was paid below min wage – when I left I threatened to take him to the labour board just to see the look on his face (stupid but sweet). Since that job, I have been paid fairly (sometimes low, but legal).
Its poor attitudes like yours that has, and are continuing to lower the standard of this industry. Acts (and attitudes) like the above mentioned are inexcusable, and should not be tolerated.
Besides, what the hell is the point?
Sure you MAY get ahead (in the short term), but what happens a few years down the road? You piss too many people off in this small industry and you will black list yourself. I know a few. Admittedly some of these a$$holes do make it to where ever it is they want to go. But at the end of the day, they still have to look themselves in the mirror.
Personally, I’d rather take the scenic route and make good friends/times rather than step on and piss off my fellow coworkers.
ah good times...
Cheers.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
I'll be proud to tell you that I "paid my dues". I did every shitty job there was from washing airplanes, emptying the hunny bucket,
and taking a huge paycut every time I take a step up in the industry. I never sold out my integrity, never fucked a buddy, and still ride tall, shoot straight and speak the truth.
So, again, how are you any better??? They washed a BMW you washed the plane(free of charge no doubt)...One winds up washing the bosses car and the other does free work on the bosses house.
You took a pay CUT, hurting everyone, making it possible for the owner, to pay the HO drivers 45/hr..
Why didn't you DEMAND a PAY RAISE for every "STEP UP?"
You keep going up, while others stay at the bottom and then you can come here and rant how you "paid your dues."Besides, what the hell is the point?
Sure you MAY get ahead (in the short term), but what happens a few years down the road?
Go to the air nunavut thread, one of the pilots even says(paraphrased), "don't go man, it's crap, he'll have you do this and this and this and you pay for your bond.... blah blah blah... I should know I was there for 3 years..."
"Clowns??" But he's the one who gave them their multi-ifr ride? Doesn't say much about the teacher...As well he'll have 2 clowns flying his Navajo.
Guess, it wasn't a problem taking their money and logging the hours when they were your "trainees?"
That shouldn't have anything to do with it.... But I guess we should let baggage handlers fly the CRJs because they've been with AC for 20 years so they should get a shot before the new F/O's?most seniority
So, just like they paid for training they wanted to get time on type... They're now more experienced...pay for.... 20 hours on the Navajo
Why didn't you think of getting experience on the aircraft earlier?? Not enough desire, enthusiasm.. Just thought you'd sit there and have the platter fall into your lap after you've done your job. Clocking in training these guys and clocking out....
Seems like they showed initiative...
There is always that cow-orker that gets on your nerves... I have had them for the past jobs I have been working for. Then again, customers that make unreasonable demands on you are the worst... don't get me started, as I worked in the customer service field for a while.
Edit: Note: I used cow-orker on purpose. I did not make a typo.
Edit: Note: I used cow-orker on purpose. I did not make a typo.
Major Bedhead,
Your meal ticket in this industry isn't just who you know. Just as important, if not more, it's your reputation. It's how you handle situations such as this.
Have you talked to the boss? Have you addressed this situation with him/her? Have you been clear in communicating your intentions and goals for your time at the company? Perhaps the boss has something else in mind - he/she sees that these two yo-yos are only around for the quick fix (but then again most of us are at one point or another) and has bigger plans for you?
If they've told you to pound sand, then obviously it would be better for you to search for employment elsewhere.
If you take 'the high road' and conduct yourself with strength of character then you will be far better off later on in your career. Idiots like you've recently encountered do slip through the cracks much to the dismay of the rest of us, but you'd only be sewering yourself by going for the instant gratfication of 'washing' the boss's car or spiking the boyz water bottle with laxatives. In the end, those hosers will get theirs - you just might be preoccupied enjoying wherever it is you're flying to witness the event.
Airtids knows for real. He's been on both sides of the coin, and is both sides of the coin. I know this for a fact.Definitely warrants a 'morals and ethics' discussion with the two after work, before or after giving notice. Explain to them why it is you are forced to move on from a decent position. Explain to them why it is that pilots are generallly seen by managers as an expense; nothing more than another quart of oil. And by all means, as far as the employer goes, be as honourable as possible. The boss isn't the problem here: your co-workers are. You can be sure that quitting without notice, etc. WILL come back to haunt you. Times are indeed getting better, but employers still have the upper hand and will for a long time the further up the ladder you go. Good luck.
Your meal ticket in this industry isn't just who you know. Just as important, if not more, it's your reputation. It's how you handle situations such as this.
Have you talked to the boss? Have you addressed this situation with him/her? Have you been clear in communicating your intentions and goals for your time at the company? Perhaps the boss has something else in mind - he/she sees that these two yo-yos are only around for the quick fix (but then again most of us are at one point or another) and has bigger plans for you?
If they've told you to pound sand, then obviously it would be better for you to search for employment elsewhere.
If you take 'the high road' and conduct yourself with strength of character then you will be far better off later on in your career. Idiots like you've recently encountered do slip through the cracks much to the dismay of the rest of us, but you'd only be sewering yourself by going for the instant gratfication of 'washing' the boss's car or spiking the boyz water bottle with laxatives. In the end, those hosers will get theirs - you just might be preoccupied enjoying wherever it is you're flying to witness the event.
"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues." - Abraham Lincoln (1809 - 1865)
CYYZ spoken like a true clown. every step in the industry takes an initial hit in the salary department. As to the extra activities, I've been involved with a number of "startups, where everybody was expected to contribute, the CP and Ops Manager both helped wash the plane"heavy turboprop" I made 70k/ yr in the NWT to fly the Ho, I also lived in YYZ on 32k. and yes paying rent, food, car insurance, phone, loans, and all the other trappings of modern life, puts you at the point of "kraft Dinner w/ hotdogs" or no frills mac and cheese w/ a blob of salsa. Every job I've gotten was because the people involved knew that I would work my ass off, not pay to jump the queue, I may not be as far ahead as some of the guys who started out the same time, but I can still look at myself in the mirror everyday w/ a clear conscience. Could you honstely say the same. Or is conscience something you discarded long ago, along w/ "share with those less fortunate" and "do unto others"
He is sharing with those "less fortunate" they have less hours.. Nice of him..rigpiggy wrote:along w/ "share with those less fortunate" and "do unto others"
He didn't have a problem taking their hours for the multi-ifr, i'm sure he doesn't have a problem with them taking hours on the ho..
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Babel Fish
- Rank 3
- Posts: 171
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:53 pm
- Location: town to town, up and down the dial...
King Air Guy wrote:
Personally, I’d rather take the scenic route and make good friends/times rather than step on and piss off my fellow coworkers.
Cheers.
Great advice. I know of a couple of people that have opted for the latter and it's gonna come back to bite them in the ass.
As for quitting...definitely!! But get the satisfaction of putting the CP behind the eight ball when you do. If you have two weeks vacation owed to you, take it (hopefully it'll be during the busy season). Then, just before you walk out the door to start your vacation, hand in your two weeks notice. Perfectly legal with the satisfaction that you've put them in a bind (just make sure that you've quietly removed ally our personal stuff before you do this).
I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me.
- Fred Allen
- Fred Allen
This comment makes no sense.cyyz wrote:
He didn't have a problem taking their hours for the multi-ifr, i'm sure he doesn't have a problem with them taking hours on the ho..
Of course he didn't have any problem taking multi hours to get their multi IFR, last I read you still had to be taught by someone to get the rating.
CYYZ you’re missing the point, a few actually.
When you get a 702/703 job, it's expected that you'll wash your own plane. It’s not expected to wash the bosses car or do free Reno’s to his/her house. That is just ass kissing, and I cannot stand that. If you do a good job, that alone will speak for itself.
Also you seem to really miss the point about pissing off those “you leave behind”, believe me, this industry is funny. Piss off your coworkers one day; they just may be on the other side of the table during an interview the next. For example, I made Turbine Captain before some of my instructors who then came to me for jobs. I’ve also had my most junior co-pilot at one job become my boss at the next. One of the guys who went to school with me (a year after I started) is now a Captain at Canjet, while I’m still flying a King air. It’s a funny small business and aside from your experience, your reputation is the most valuable asset you have.
But ya know what, don’t listen to us. Keep on stepping on other toes, stick your nose up the boss’s ass, and lick away, do whatever it takes to get ahead. See where you’re sitting in 5 years. Maybe you’re on AC, maybe not, but really who cares…the question is will it be worth it?
Cheers.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Good post KAG...
I can tell you from reading this thread and others who I would love to fly with:
rigpiggy
KAG
mitch cronin
Always positive and sincere.
CYYZ, from your posts I have a strong feeling sharing a cockpit with you would be a major drag. And whether you got there first or not, that is what I would care about.
Just about anywhere you go in this business your reputation will have gotten there first.
Cheers.
I can tell you from reading this thread and others who I would love to fly with:
rigpiggy
KAG
mitch cronin
Always positive and sincere.
CYYZ, from your posts I have a strong feeling sharing a cockpit with you would be a major drag. And whether you got there first or not, that is what I would care about.
Just about anywhere you go in this business your reputation will have gotten there first.
Cheers.
Keep flying till the noise stops.
Lol, he isn't sincere... Sorry, I'm sincere.... =)SplitS wrote:
rigpiggy
Always positive and sincere.
CYYZ, from your posts I have a strong feeling sharing a cockpit with you would be a major drag. And whether you got there first or not, that is what I would care about.
And I like how you contradicted yourself by siding with me, you're agreeing that it's the MOST important thing, to get there first.. =P
Is leblanc starting his 4th airline??? Yeah, good to see pilots caring about "reputation."Just about anywhere you go in this business your reputation will have gotten there first.
And if it were so, how come we're making much less??? Oh, because someone sold themselves out, and some how got on top, but I highly highly it was just 1 guy, I'm guessing in the thousands.....
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Major Bedhead
- Rank 2
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:55 am
First off let me say that I was indeed asking on behalf of someone else.
The circumstances for him were remarkably similar to what happened to me two years ago so what I posted vis a vis the fellows washing the car and doing reno's was real but happened during a time when work on airplanes was very hard to come by.
I did give the owners two weeks notice and got letters of reference signed before I gave them such, didn't spike anyones water nor sandblast anyones cars.
Honestly after I left I wound up taking what was essentially a step down, ie. no more Seneca and no chance of flying the Navajo.
I wound up working for a school with a much less sexy twin as their multi ride ... and no charter work whatsoever but I did fly and many times when I'd get back from a flight I'd see the vaunted PA31 sitting idle of the ramp.
Meanwhile the number of cars belonging to instructors at the old school started to outweigh those of the students.
On no less than two occasions as I was driving by did I see the bosses car (now an SUV replete with charter company name in the window) being sudsed up by someone other than family.
I stopped caring and kept flying.
I would hear from time to time the callsign of the mighty Navajo, and it awoke things I'd rather not acknowledge for a few seconds, but it passed and I reminded myself each time I heard it ... I heard it on an aircraft radio I was flying.
It would be nice to sum up that the aircraft was grounded or that the company was bankrupted, but they're still flying and have apparently over 12 instructors all vying for a chance to fly their airplane.
Perhaps if you're interested and you're a Class 2, you'll like to apply and get less than $20 per hour.
I wasn't ... and CYYZ you don't know a thing about me, nor the work I did for the guys to help them get their MIFR ratings who in gratitude for my hard work were prepared to bend over to jump over me for a position that was promised to me by management when the aircraft in question arrived. When I said "seniority" it was in reference to a policy in place, though unfortunately in lip service by the owners of the company.
You do sound like their type of employee though ..
To the others, thanks for the replies, you helped my friend see that there are good people in this industry and he's taken the job I had suggested.
Character counts,
P
The circumstances for him were remarkably similar to what happened to me two years ago so what I posted vis a vis the fellows washing the car and doing reno's was real but happened during a time when work on airplanes was very hard to come by.
I did give the owners two weeks notice and got letters of reference signed before I gave them such, didn't spike anyones water nor sandblast anyones cars.
Honestly after I left I wound up taking what was essentially a step down, ie. no more Seneca and no chance of flying the Navajo.
I wound up working for a school with a much less sexy twin as their multi ride ... and no charter work whatsoever but I did fly and many times when I'd get back from a flight I'd see the vaunted PA31 sitting idle of the ramp.
Meanwhile the number of cars belonging to instructors at the old school started to outweigh those of the students.
On no less than two occasions as I was driving by did I see the bosses car (now an SUV replete with charter company name in the window) being sudsed up by someone other than family.
I stopped caring and kept flying.
I would hear from time to time the callsign of the mighty Navajo, and it awoke things I'd rather not acknowledge for a few seconds, but it passed and I reminded myself each time I heard it ... I heard it on an aircraft radio I was flying.
It would be nice to sum up that the aircraft was grounded or that the company was bankrupted, but they're still flying and have apparently over 12 instructors all vying for a chance to fly their airplane.
Perhaps if you're interested and you're a Class 2, you'll like to apply and get less than $20 per hour.
I wasn't ... and CYYZ you don't know a thing about me, nor the work I did for the guys to help them get their MIFR ratings who in gratitude for my hard work were prepared to bend over to jump over me for a position that was promised to me by management when the aircraft in question arrived. When I said "seniority" it was in reference to a policy in place, though unfortunately in lip service by the owners of the company.
You do sound like their type of employee though ..
To the others, thanks for the replies, you helped my friend see that there are good people in this industry and he's taken the job I had suggested.
Character counts,
P
