A Twist on Medical

[CBRRider]

Hey guys,

So I am wanting to get into this career and ofcourse I need my class 1 medical. Yes I know this is a case with karma coming back to bite you, but no one is perfect when they are young.

Now I am as healthy as a cheetah, with perfect vision, never in my life touched drugs or alcohol. That said, I had a horrible job in my past, and to just get away without resigning as per a suggestion on reddit, I would go to my family doctor and tell him I had 'debilitating migraines' just to get sick notes to get off of work for a couple of months.

Ofcourse there were no debilitating migraines, but ofcourse the problem now is the notes my family doctor made in his computer.

So I know one of the questions in the medical is about migraines. I know you have to tell the truth, and the truth is if I said no I don't have migraine problems that is the truth. I would not be lying to the Tc examiner, but would they ever see my medical records my family doctor makes?

[Jetking]

Yes, thats right! You don't have to lie but I will give you advise on a positive note that migranes are curable and its just a psychological problem. If you live healthy, active and stressfree life(with no addiction to alcohol, drung things) you should be fine in few months. If it is a major problem then consult your family doctor or specialist and tell them your intention about going to flight training, you will have a better idea.

Good luck n keep it fit!!

[GoinVertical]

Say "No" on the aviation medical.

If it ever comes back to bite you (which I really really really doubt it will, assuming your Aviation Medical Examiner isn't at the same practise as your GP) say that the migraines ended as soon as you left that job. Must have been caused by that job. Or admit you lied. But I doubt you'll ever hear anything.

[digits_]

You would be in trouble if you lie on your aviation medical. As far as I know there are no questions as "did you ever lie about an illness" or "did you ever fake an illness". So you say "no", you never had migraines, assuming that is the truth.

Did your family doctor ever found out you lied to him?

[CBRRider]

Thanks you guys.

My family doctor is not at the same practice as the aviation doctor. No my family doctor never found out I was lying to his face to get sick notes off of work. I lied saying I had migraines to get two months off one time, I lied saying my neck muscles locked up giving me stiff neck and would walk into the doctors office pretending I couldn't move my head from side to side giving me 4 months off another time, all nice suggestions from fellow redditiors. He would even prescribe me things such as muscle relaxants (which of course I never actually went and picked up or purchased).

You would be in trouble if you lie on your aviation medical. As far as I know there are no questions as "did you ever lie about an illness" or "did you ever fake an illness".

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this.

[JAHinYYC]

Coincidentally I had this exact discussion with my Aviation Doctor during my last medical in November.

I had just started medication for blood pressure and was concerned about its impact on my ability to hold a Category One for my ATPL.

My Dr told me a story about an applicant who came in for his first medical and completed the standard screening questions regarding mental illness and taking prescription medicines to treat the same.

It seems that the applicant said, "No" when asked about history of mental illness and medication.

My Doctor didn't need very long to review the applicant's centralized computer health record (maintained by the province) to see the medication and treatment previously described. The medical was denied.

No, the Aviation Doctor was not part of the guys family practice. Its 2020 and all of your health info (including prescriptions written and never filled (believe me I asked) is likely to be stored in a central database

Moral of the story - be up front with the details...all the details. You may be able to work through the issues...

Not to sound like your dad, but you made a choice back in the day. Lying about what you said then isn't going to make it any better.

[GoinVertical]

I've never been to a CAME that's asked for my provincial health card. Your mileage may vary.

[photofly]

My Doctor didn't need very long to review the applicant's centralized computer health record (maintained by the province) to see the medication and treatment previously described. The medical was denied.

Ontario doesn't have a centralized health record. Alberta does, I think, is that where this story took place? Most provinces don't.

I've never been to a CAME that's asked for my provincial health card. Your mileage may vary.

Me neither. And it wouldn't help them very much, because every healthcare provider in Ontario maintains their own records, so the CAME would have to contact, with your express consent, your family doctor and everywhere else you've had treatment.

Now, the consent thing is interesting: by applying for a medical you give consent for TC to request copies of your records from your various healthcare providers, but, aside from your family doctor you don't have to tell TC who those healthcare providers are (until they explicitly ask.)

Even then, you don't provide consent for your CAME to get those records, so they would not be provided to him/her.

[photofly]

double post

[CBRRider]

[digits_]

Thanks you guys.

My family doctor is not at the same practice as the aviation doctor. No my family doctor never found out I was lying to his face to get sick notes off of work. I lied saying I had migraines to get two months off one time, I lied saying my neck muscles locked up giving me stiff neck and would walk into the doctors office pretending I couldn't move my head from side to side giving me 4 months off another time, all nice suggestions from fellow redditiors. He would even prescribe me things such as muscle relaxants (which of course I never actually went and picked up or purchased).

You would be in trouble if you lie on your aviation medical. As far as I know there are no questions as "did you ever lie about an illness" or "did you ever fake an illness".

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this.

Your aviation doctor will not ask "did you ever lie to your family doctor". He doesn't/shouldn't care, as long as you don't lie to him.


I did notice the wording might be problematic though. The question is "Has the applicant ever had or been treated for any of the following conditions?"
Guess you'd have to say yes, as you have been treated for migraines. Although it could get philosophical: if you never followed your treatment, have you ever really been treated? Hmmmm

[photofly]

Of course a more interesting questions is what kind of pilot someone who would lie to his doctor and employer to skive off work for months on end would make.

[digits_]

Of course a more interesting questions is what kind of pilot someone who would lie to his doctor and employer to skive off work for months on end would make.

But it was a suggestion on reddit

[CBRRider]

Of course a more interesting questions is what kind of pilot someone who would lie to his doctor and employer to skive off work for months on end would make.

Ahh I knew it would come to this. Thank you for everyone else prior who were understanding.

If you knew how horrible and morally corrupt my bosses were and the harassment I was subjected to, I have no doubt that I have the moral high ground here. At the end of the day, you have to take care of and protect yourself and right or wrong this is the methodology that I employed.

[photofly]

I have the moral high ground here. At the end of the day, you have to take care of and protect yourself and right or wrong this is the methodology that I employed.

Bravo. You’ll fit right in.

[200Above]

I lost my medical for 6 month due to migraine(s). Told my aviation doctor, he told me not to fly for the time being. I was at a respectable 705 company and I was removed from my flying with pay. Long story. Did MRI, CT Scan, saw a Neurologist- everything came back negative. Neurologist diagnosed me with Migraines with Aura. I was told I'd never fly again.

Aviation Dr convinced RAMO at TC to give me a restricted medical. So I eventually was given a restricted medical. Didn't bother me, I'm scared of flying by myself anyways. Went for my yearly medical a year later, and I was asked if I had any migraines - No (I found my trigger). When I went to put the sticker in my booklet, I realized I was given an Unrestricted Medical. I damn near had a migraine.

Since then, I was hired at WJ and also passed my Air Canada medical (and subsequent hiring process ) with no issues. Little extra paperwork.

Everyone knows I had migraines, including TC and my employers. I also have to answer "yes" to "Have you ever been declined a Medical Certificate" every time.

[photofly]

Here are some more inconvenient factoids for the OP to include in his or her calculus:

Section 6.5(2) of the Aeronautics Act compels you to tell your family doctor (every doctor who examines you, in fact) that you hold (for instance) a Student Pilot Permit. Section 6.5(1) compels that doctor to tell the minister, if he or she feels you have a condition that is likely to constitute a hazard to aviation safety. (Not sure if a deficit of moral probity counts as one of those, but let's stick to the story about migraines, shall we?)

So perhaps you'll want to look for a new family doctor. Of course, a new doctor is going to suggest they get a copy of your existing medical records from your old family doctor. I guess you can always refuse to give consent for your old doctor to give your new doctor your records:

"Hi, new doctor, I've just qualified as a pilot, no you can't see my old records, and no, I don't want to say why."

Here's the bit I don't understand: you had no difficulty lying to your doctor for your own benefit, because you hold the moral high ground over your turd-like former employer. But there isn't a pilot in Canada who doesn't believe they hold the moral high ground over the minister and his delegates, who are universally reviled for their incompetence, venality and general turd-like nature. So why wouldn't you be happy to lie to the Minister too? After all, you have to take care of and protect yourself!

[digits_]

Hmmmmm.... sounds like someone has completed their journey to the dark side... Don't you think you are being a little bit harsh here? He lied, but I have the impression he's trying to do the right thing with his aviation medical. That should not be discouraged.

[CBRRider]

Hmmmmm.... sounds like someone has completed their journey to the dark side... Don't you think you are being a little bit harsh here? He lied, but I have the impression he's trying to do the right thing with his aviation medical. That should not be discouraged.

Thank you.

You know, I have no problem saying to the medical examiner, no I have never had any migraines, but I would report to my family doctor numerous times that I did have severe migraines and neck muscle spasms in order to get away from a toxic workplace. You can do all the MRI you want because I am in perfect health.

I am just concerned if transport Canada will deny me because I come clean. If the doctor sends you to do an MRI or if any of you were referred to further testing, do you have to pay for that or is it covered by provincial health care?

[photofly]

the doctor sends you to do an MRI or if any of you were referred to further testing, do you have to pay for that or is it covered by provincial health care?

The doctor doesn't send you for an MRI. The doctor will deny you the medical, and send your file to TC. About three years later, someone from TC medical branch will request a report from a neurologist of your choosing. You will pay for the neurology consultation, the MRIs and the neurologists report.

About nine months after that, TC will ask for more reports.

And so it goes on.

Don't you think you are being a little bit harsh here? He lied, but I have the impression he's trying to do the right thing with his aviation medical. That should not be discouraged.

The right thing is to 'fess up to his doctor, and his employer, and pay back the money he took from his employer or provincial insurance while keeping his job when he should have lost it. Lying a second time by saying he was never treated for migraine is now just expediency and has nothing to do with "the right thing".

The only reason he's asking here, is because he wants to chart the way out of this mess with the least probability of getting caught. I have nothing against the poor chap, but let's not kid ourselves.

As Sir Walter Scott wrote:

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave
When first we practise to deceive!"

[final28]

One thing to consider is the investigation that might follow if you were ever involved in an accident. If that dug back far enough and came up with either a migraine diagnosis and/or a misrepresentation for your medical it may affect insurance coverage.

[JAHinYYC]

CBRRider after rereading the original post, the responses and your subsequent posts I find myself concerned about the future implications of the decision that you are on the cusp of making.

In your original post you acknowledge that you made an ill-considered decision to lie to your family physician about migraines as a means of getting sick notes which would allow you to get out of working in an unpleasant situation. You chalk this up to the foolishness of youth.

No judgement here. We've all been young and made dumb decisions.

The thing is...about getting older... you stop doing that and you hopefully start to make smart decisions - even when they are difficult and come with unpleasant consequences.

You go on to ask for advice about how to rationalize making a statement that you do not and have not suffered from migraines to a CAME which contradicts what you previously told your family doctor and what will be documented in your medical file.

Much of the advice you have received focuses on whether these two contradictory statements will ever be discovered and the mechanism for how this discovery would be accomplished.

Photofly correctly assumes that my story about centralized record keeping is from Alberta - which has centralized record keeping.

He says that Ontario does not have a centralized medical records database (my Google search this morning indicates that it does).

Your subsequent mention of the fact that you are in BC and ask whether BC maintains a central records registry suggests to me you are still trying to assess the likelihood of getting caught.

I offer to following observations:

1) That section 6.5(6) of the Aeronautics Act provides your "deemed consent" to release your medical records to the Minister (of Transport) for purposes of assessing your medical competency; and
2) Your "bet" is that BC never centralizes its medical record keeping in a manner that would allow your prior statements to come to light.

Since you mention karma in your original post - CBRRider I ask you to think of yourself in the future. Ten or Fifteen years from now.

There you are zooming along at FL410. Autopilot is engaged and since it is your leg the First Officer is completing fuel checks and working the radio while you sip on your coffee and ponder which crew meal you would like to order. A message appears on ACARS asking you to call in to speak to the Chief Pilot once you reach destination.

Upon landing you learn that Transport Canada has opened an investigation into your license because you failed to disclose a history of debilitating migraines on your initial application for an aviation medical.

You are given an administrative suspension pending investigation. This, in turn, becomes a full blown dismissal once it is determined that you once told your family doctor that your migraines were bad enough that you couldn't work, yet you subsequently told your CAME that you had no prior history of migraines.

Since you have repeatedly made that same contradictory statement each year during your medical renewal and since you also told that to the Company Doctor during your pre hire medical that had no history of migraines you are terminated since lying to your employer is grounds for dismissal without cause. Your union fights for you, but since this is an area where the courts and employment tribunals don't mess around you are given a nominal severance package and your career at this airline is over.

You contemplate starting over with another airline, but need to disclose the circumstances around your previous dismissal during each subsequent interview.

Meanwhile the Transport Canada Tribunal imposes six month license suspension along with a $2500 fine. They decline to seek any jail time (desptie the fact that you are eligible to go to prison for up to one year under section 7.3(4)). Lucky you, you won't be permanently barred from entering the United States, but at age fifty you wonder what impact this situation will have on your ability to find work.

Maybe the call comes or maybe it never does.

Alternatively, you could just tell the CAME what happened during you initial medical. Explain what you said to the family Doctor and why. Work through the repercussions (if there are any) and live the rest of your life without this hanging over your head. At that point at least you know where you stand and if you ultimately can't hold the Category One because of the migraines thing - at least you haven't spent $65,000 and years of your life on training.

But honestly, I am willing to bet it doesn't come to that.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Of course a more interesting questions is what kind of pilot someone who would lie to his doctor and employer to skive off work for months on end would make.

The more interesting question is, what kind of pilot would someone who publicly admits to taking employment advice from Reddit make?

Seriously though, I've had such jobs a few times, and I just quit (or didn't quit, and it got so toxic that I wound up getting fired when I stood up for myself). I don't blame the OP, we all make mistakes.

Just keep in mind, it's not the mistake that brings you down. It's the coverup. Every time.

(unless, to be fair, your employer is toxic...)

[digits_]

Since you mention karma in your original post - CBRRider I ask you to think of yourself in the future. Ten or Fifteen years from now.

There you are zooming along at FL410. Autopilot is engaged and since it is your leg the First Officer is completing fuel checks and working the radio while you sip on your coffee and ponder which crew meal you would like to order. A message appears on ACARS asking you to call in to speak to the Chief Pilot once you reach destination.

Upon landing you learn that Transport Canada has opened an investigation into your license because you failed to disclose a history of debilitating migraines on your initial application for an aviation medical.

You are given an administrative suspension pending investigation. This, in turn, becomes a full blown dismissal once it is determined that you once told your family doctor that your migraines were bad enough that you couldn't work, yet you subsequently told your CAME that you had no prior history of migraines.

Since you have repeatedly made that same contradictory statement each year during your medical renewal and since you also told that to the Company Doctor during your pre hire medical that had no history of migraines you are terminated since lying to your employer is grounds for dismissal without cause. Your union fights for you, but since this is an area where the courts and employment tribunals don't mess around you are given a nominal severance package and your career at this airline is over.

You contemplate starting over with another airline, but need to disclose the circumstances around your previous dismissal during each subsequent interview.

Meanwhile the Transport Canada Tribunal imposes six month license suspension along with a $2500 fine. They decline to seek any jail time (desptie the fact that you are eligible to go to prison for up to one year under section 7.3(4)). Lucky you, you won't be permanently barred from entering the United States, but at age fifty you wonder what impact this situation will have on your ability to find work.

Maybe the call comes or maybe it never does.

Alternatively, you could just tell the CAME what happened during you initial medical. Explain what you said to the family Doctor and why. Work through the repercussions (if there are any) and live the rest of your life without this hanging over your head. At that point at least you know where you stand and if you ultimately can't hold the Category One because of the migraines thing - at least you haven't spent $65,000 and years of your life on training.

But honestly, I am willing to bet it doesn't come to that.

Owkay. Theoretically possible, but not sure the OP can do anything about that.

Realistically, what will happen during the medical if he confesses?

I predict something like this:

"Have you had any migraines?"
- "Well, not really, but I once told my family doctor I had them"
"What do you mean?"
- "Jee doc, this is embarrassing, but I had a really crappy job 2 years ago and I got a doctor's note for migraines. But I never really had them."
"Oh boy. Hmm, but to be clear, you've never actually had any migraines? "
- "No, not at all"
"You're not lying now, are you?"
- "No sir"
"Ok, just checking. And did you ever take any medication for those fake migraines?"
- "No"
"And no other treatment for those migraines?"
- "no, nothing"
"Well, in that case I'll say no on this question, since you never actually had any migraines and you never got any treatment either. Does that sounds right to you?"
- "Yeah, sure"
"Ok"

In summary: the paper will most likely have a "no" on it. The paper trail will most likely not look different whether you confess to the doc or not.

Also, on what grounds would the airline fire you? You didn't lie on your medical, you lied during another employment. Unless the accident has you saying on the CVR "ohhh my head hurts like crazy like it has been every week of my life, better dump the cabin and see if this alleviates my pain" I find it highly unlikely any investigator will link the cause of the accident to fake migraines from 10 years ago.

[photofly]

He says that Ontario does not have a centralized medical records database (my Google search this morning indicates that it does).

I assure you, with 100% certainty, that it does not. Every Health Information Custodian keeps their own records, in a variety of incompatible systems. A few hospitals keep their records on different regional systems from what used to be part of eHealth Ontario, various networked systems called Connecting Ontario (Clinical Connect, Connecting GTA and others) and a few primary care providers can read records there (but mostly not contribute to them), and they are regional in scope only.

There is quite definitely no Ontario-wide system for sharing health information among healthcare providers. Such a system has in fact been the holy grail of medical record keeping in this province for a long time but the obstacles to its implementation are huge, seemingly insurmountable.

EDIT I am advised by my neighbour on the sofa tonight that regulations were propsed just a couple of weeks ago to enforce data interoperability between various systems. You can read them here, if that’s your gig:
https://www.ontariocanada.com/registry/ ... ngId=32590

Secondly, I am told by someone whose advice you want to take very very seriously, that the OP should get professional legal advice on his situation. Sooner, rather than later.