Pakistan Airlines crash near Karachi airport May 22 2020

[Old fella]

Reminds me of this one....sort of....

https://bst-tsb.gc.ca/ENG/rapports-repo ... 0h0007.pdf

Knew both individuals involved..

[righthandman]

Further analysis can be found here: https://youtu.be/UEYiiZdvNh4

[co-joe]

Wow, I can't recall a Large Passenger Airliner ever forgetting to put down gear in recent memory. Does anybody know, has this ever happened before historically on similar sized aircraft?

I'm thinking if they committed to the belly landing once they realized, more people might have survived. Such a terrible and preventable trajedy.

I seem to remember someone in that part of the world nearly or similarly sort of gearing up a 737. SpiceJet in India maybe?

Emirates did it in a GA by not re arming the AT, in a 777 I think.

[TheStig]

Emirates did it in a GA by not re arming the AT, in a 777 I think.

The Emirates accident was actually an interesting case study that exposed holes in the proverbial Swiss cheese model relating to SOP's, training and aircraft systems.

The crew attempted to abort the landing and activated the go-around switches, without realising that the aircraft had briefly touched down on the runway – a situation which inhibits the go-around switches and requires manual advancement of the thrust levers.

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/emi ... 14.article

From what I read the crew followed SOP's throughout the procedure which started with a long landing warning that was result of windshear. They PF pushed the G/A button and then placed both hands on the control column to fly the go-around procedure. The aircraft had enough energy to establish a positive rate of climb and the gear was retracted. Upon realizing the thrust was still at idle it was firewalled but the aircraft had run out of energy and crashed.

[Cliff Jumper]

Wow, I can't recall a Large Passenger Airliner ever forgetting to put down gear in recent memory. Does anybody know, has this ever happened before historically on similar sized aircraft?

I'm thinking if they committed to the belly landing once they realized, more people might have survived. Such a terrible and preventable trajedy.

I seem to remember someone in that part of the world nearly or similarly sort of gearing up a 737. SpiceJet in India maybe?

Emirates did it in a GA by not re arming the AT, in a 777 I think.

How about these.....

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20150629-0
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20100506-1
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20090130-0
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20081001-0
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20070124-3
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20060518-0
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20031213-0
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20010921-0
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20001113-0
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20001006-1
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20000704-0
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20000399-0

And, that's just since 2000.

[Capt. Underpants]

This guy has done some analysis based on available data.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwfkN5M-bSY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFhGnCOtcc8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ0LY7ma1cA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEYiiZdvNh4&t=2s

[New Antique Pilot]

On June 12, 1961 TCA had a gear up incident during training in a Viscount at Dorval.
An approach to land on 24 L was made with the right inner prop feathered and the right outer engine at reduced power to simulate feathering of the prop on that engine. The gear had not been selected down and the left inner and right outer props contacted the runway. At this time the instructor assumed control and applied full power. A turn to the right was made to land on 06. They were unable to unfeather the right and left inboard props. The aircraft was substantially damaged when it landed with the gear selected down but not locked. Tests later established that with all 4 throttles fully back the gear warning horn operated properly. However by advancing the individual throttles by distances varying from 7/8 to 1 1/8 inches the horn would not sound. In this case the right outer engine throttle was at a setting to give 380 pounds per hour fuel flow. This required the throttle to be advanced beyond the point which permitted the horn to operate. From DOT accident report 1341.

The trainee Captain in the left seat is still with us. In his 90’s now.

NAP

[Eric Janson]

They PF pushed the G/A button and then placed both hands on the control column to fly the go-around procedure.

When I flew Boeings the PF didn't just push the GA button/switch but also pushed the thrust levers up. There was a "Set Thrust" call at which point the PNF followed up on the thrust levers and ensured the correct thrust was set.

Problems start when simple procedures are "dumbed down" by Airlines and Manufacturers to cater for people who have difficulty with basic manual flying imho.

The Pakistan Airlines crash is just the latest crash where a perfectly flyable aircraft was crashed due to very basic procedures and SOPs not being followed. Data published on PPRuNe appears to show a 210kt touchdown. Almost 80 knots above Vref. Unbelievable negligence if this turns out to be correct.

It will be interesting to see if the PNF called for a go-around at any point.

There may some Cultural factors involved as well - will be interesting to see if this gets any coverage.

[TheStig]

I was just trying to add a bit of context to an accident that was referenced to show how there can be a number of contributing factors. 777 and 787 manuals have been significantly revised since the accidents in SFO and DXB. I agree with your comments and have been trying to avoid commenting on the PIA accident until more information is released. However, as the picture of what happened becomes more detailed this accident looks absolutely dumbfounding.

[co-joe]

Emirates did it in a GA by not re arming the AT, in a 777 I think.

The Emirates accident was actually an interesting case study that exposed holes in the proverbial Swiss cheese model relating to SOP's, training and aircraft systems.

The crew attempted to abort the landing and activated the go-around switches, without realising that the aircraft had briefly touched down on the runway – a situation which inhibits the go-around switches and requires manual advancement of the thrust levers.

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/emi ... 14.article

From what I read the crew followed SOP's throughout the procedure which started with a long landing warning that was result of windshear. They PF pushed the G/A button and then placed both hands on the control column to fly the go-around procedure. The aircraft had enough energy to establish a positive rate of climb and the gear was retracted. Upon realizing the thrust was still at idle it was firewalled but the aircraft had run out of energy and crashed.

Agreed. Plus EK had the benefit of a white devil to blame for it.

[leftoftrack]

Wow, I can't recall a Large Passenger Airliner ever forgetting to put down gear in recent memory. Does anybody know, has this ever happened before historically on similar sized aircraft?

I'm thinking if they committed to the belly landing once they realized, more people might have survived. Such a terrible and preventable trajedy.

I seem to remember someone in that part of the world nearly or similarly sort of gearing up a 737. SpiceJet in India maybe?

Emirates did it in a GA by not re arming the AT, in a 777 I think.

the Superjet did a gear up during their Cat 3 certification. Pilot forgot the gear.

[co-joe]

Brutal. SMH. Almost all of those incidents seem to involve a flap problem, or some outside factor that gave the crew a probable excuse for being high or fast or both. I guess it could happen to me, so I'm going to make damn sure it doesn't.

[Eric Janson]

Preliminary report:-

https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/Upload/S ... IB-431.pdf

Raises even more questions about what was going on in that cockpit.

How things could deteriorate to this level is something I can't understand. Very sad read.

[boeingboy]

At 500 ft, the FDR indicates: landing gear retracted, slat/flap configuration 3, airspeed 220 knots IAS, descent rate 2000 ft/min.

Jesus.....
I'm flabbergasted anyone allowed the approach to go that bad. Surely - even if you were asleep at the wheel - this would be an obviously uncomfortable situation to the point you would not even think about trying to plant it on the runway....

And the fact the gear was down - then they retracted it again at 1700'. I cant wait to read the CVR transcripts.

[airway]

“The landing was undertaken with landing gears retracted. The aircraft touched the runway surface on its engines. Flight crew applied reverse engine power and initiated a braking action”

Disturbing

[rxl]

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/a ... allegedly/

[Daniel Cooper]

CNN now reporting 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses according to Pakistan's Aviation Minister.

[BMLtech]

CNN now reporting 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses according to Pakistan's Aviation Minister.

PIA should be immediately banned from Canadian and international airspace based on this revelation, until they can prove otherwise.Their entire operating certificate is void.Hello Minister Garneau?

[Heliian]

CNN now reporting 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses according to Pakistan's Aviation Minister.

PIA should be immediately banned from Canadian and international airspace based on this revelation, until they can prove otherwise.Their entire operating certificate is void.Hello Minister Garneau?

Ha, you think they're bad, I can't imagine all of the AC pilots with padded logbooks.

All kidding aside, this isn't just a pakistani problem but this really highlights what people will do to get that seat, even if they're not qualified or illiterate.

I don't think you have a case for banning PIA just yet.

[BMLtech]

CNN now reporting 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses according to Pakistan's Aviation Minister.

PIA should be immediately banned from Canadian and international airspace based on this revelation, until they can prove otherwise.Their entire operating certificate is void.Hello Minister Garneau?

Ha, you think they're bad, I can't imagine all of the AC pilots with padded logbooks.

All kidding aside, this isn't just a pakistani problem but this really highlights what people will do to get that seat, even if they're not qualified or illiterate.

I don't think you have a case for banning PIA just yet.

This sounds like a little bit more than logbook padding. They are saying that up to a third of their pilots falsified their license exams, rampant cronyism, patronage,etc.This latest accident implies incompetence beyond belief. Who's to say if their wide body operation is any different?

[Eric Janson]

BBC carrying the story as well

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-53182750

Fits with the Culture. No surprise to anyone that has spent time in the region.

Similar issue in India - they grounded a number of people and then it all got swept under the rug. Hopefully this doesn't happen here.

Fully agree that PIA needs to be banned Globally and an independent investigation needs to be conducted. I see they're IOSA certified - shows what a complete joke this is imho.

[Heliian]

PIA should be immediately banned from Canadian and international airspace based on this revelation, until they can prove otherwise.Their entire operating certificate is void.Hello Minister Garneau?

Ha, you think they're bad, I can't imagine all of the AC pilots with padded logbooks.

All kidding aside, this isn't just a pakistani problem but this really highlights what people will do to get that seat, even if they're not qualified or illiterate.

I don't think you have a case for banning PIA just yet.

This sounds like a little bit more than logbook padding. They are saying that up to a third of their pilots falsified their license exams, rampant cronyism, patronage,etc.This latest accident implies incompetence beyond belief. Who's to say if their wide body operation is any different?

You forgot nepotism. As Mr. Jansen said, it's par for the course over there.

[Capt. Underpants]

Don’t kid yourself, there’s plenty of nepotism on this side of the planet too. But at least most of our training and qualification programs are legitimate enough to weed out the kind of weakness displayed by the PIA crew.

[North Shore]

^ Weakness? I rather think that you'd have to actively try to F$$k it up that badly!

[rigpiggy]

https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pakista ... 1.72226964

they say 40% here