AC pilot salaries now?

[montado]

I know how our tax system works. I just find it hilarious how higher income earners complain about it. They try to make it sound unfair. They say "we pay more taxes" and while yes you pay more, you pay the same taxes on the same income earned. You pay the same taxes on your first 60k as the 60k income person makes.

I think it's just stupid to chime in about pilot pay, take the highest earners and try to make some arguments that the lower wage people of the world should be empathetic to the higher wage earners tax rates. Why was taxes even brought up? Its not like pilots are disproportionately taxed.

[ayseven]

Fair is what you pay to get on the airplane. It is nice to see benefit from a higher income. I don't think anybody can argue that. Is making people who make more, more unhappy, going to help lower income people? We know that answer. If you want to make more money, the solution is pretty simple: do what I did and get out of aviation for as long as it takes to make money.

[Daniel Cooper]

Isn't it fare?

[ayseven]

Yes, technically. But I think sic applies.

[altiplano]

I know how our tax system works. I just find it hilarious how higher income earners complain about it. They try to make it sound unfair. They say "we pay more taxes" and while yes you pay more, you pay the same taxes on the same income earned. You pay the same taxes on your first 60k as the 60k income person makes.

I think it's just stupid to chime in about pilot pay, take the highest earners and try to make some arguments that the lower wage people of the world should be empathetic to the higher wage earners tax rates. Why was taxes even brought up? Its not like pilots are disproportionately taxed.

I'm not complaining about the tax system. I'm pointing out that you don't really take home that much more when it's all said and done and people don't seem to realize it.

[montado]

60k income takes home 46k in Ontario
300k income takes home 174265 or about 4x as much take home. When gross was 5x.

And if you make 301k you take home about 500 more than the guy who made 300k.

I'd say, making more money is clearly pretty damn good. Even with our taxes we have very little to complain about.

I wonder what people would think if they heard CR complain about how much tax he pays. Someone making 300k a year complaining about the taxes they pay vs the 60k a year person is like CR complaining about how much taxes he pays vs the 300k captain.

Yawn...

[alkaseltzer]

Hi guys, curious what a 20 year plus 787 pilot is making now and if any had to drop down to a smaller airplane? I’m assuming the pilots are sharing the time so there are minimum layoffs .
Thanks again

Jazz pilots are on a trajectory to earn more than AC pilots over the next 5 years.

[genetic jack hammer]

Hi guys, curious what a 20 year plus 787 pilot is making now and if any had to drop down to a smaller airplane? I’m assuming the pilots are sharing the time so there are minimum layoffs .
Thanks again

Jazz pilots are on a trajectory to earn more than AC pilots over the next 5 years.

Hmmmm...very interesting. Maybe CaptainKirk knew something that we didn't, when he made that video about the captains pay at the regional level.

[mbav8r]

Hi guys, curious what a 20 year plus 787 pilot is making now and if any had to drop down to a smaller airplane? I’m assuming the pilots are sharing the time so there are minimum layoffs .
Thanks again

Jazz pilots are on a trajectory to earn more than AC pilots over the next 5 years.

As a Jazz pilot(Captain), I would like to see the math on that, not really sure how you arrived at that

['97 Tercel]

Quite simple really....

[hithere]

Hi guys, curious what a 20 year plus 787 pilot is making now and if any had to drop down to a smaller airplane? I’m assuming the pilots are sharing the time so there are minimum layoffs .
Thanks again

Jazz pilots are on a trajectory to earn more than AC pilots over the next 5 years.

Likewise I am a senior Jazz Captain and I have absolutely no idea what the hell you are talking about

[goingnowherefast]

@55h a 787capt is pulling only about 15500/month.... Was about 22500 at 80h

And then you folks all wonder why nobody listens to the crybaby pilots whining about poor wages...

Instead of complaining and bitching that others make more, maybe be happy for them and work towards improving your own pay. Dragging other's down and bad mouthing their pay is now we ended up in the pilot pay gutter.

[altiplano]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

[ayseven]

This argument has gone on for as long as I can remember. People at the top of the pile (not management) making more, can only be a good thing for those under them on the pay scale. Jealousy is not a pleasant thing.

[alkaseltzer]

Hi guys, curious what a 20 year plus 787 pilot is making now and if any had to drop down to a smaller airplane? I’m assuming the pilots are sharing the time so there are minimum layoffs .
Thanks again

Jazz pilots are on a trajectory to earn more than AC pilots over the next 5 years.

As a Jazz pilot(Captain), I would like to see the math on that, not really sure how you arrived at that

Let me clarify. I mean flat pay guys. Not your mid-seniority captain that is sitting on his porch in his Muskoka cottage making $10-15k+ per month to enjoy their beer. Not earning, but making.

But it's not about the seniors (for once).

For starters, Jazz guys will get CEWS for the duration of the program. AC refuses to.

People were told that it was a lottery to get into AC, yet the bottom guys aren't getting afforded basic decency of continuing the CEWS. Maybe they don't need any benefits, but CEWS goes a lot farther for families than CERB. Many of them took paycuts to get to AC, but now a few have resorted to DoorDash to supplement their income. I'm sure the beggars around the major intersections in Toronto are earning way more.

So while this pandemic unfolds and recovery occurs over the next few years, Jazz and Jazz ALPA seems to want to do right by their guys. Good on them. Same for the other airlines in Canada.

As for AC guys, it's crickets. Not a word. Yet. As of today. Less than two weeks to go to the end of the month and one can imagine the stress of many families from a failed cooperation between company and union.

Think Trudeau will put the brakes on the CEWS by the end of August? Think again. Will be till next February at the earliest. ALPA would reasonably do their part to extend this for everyone. Their actions speak louder than words. But as of today, AC families stay in limbo.

The common decency to the ones who worked their career to arrive at AC, has not been extended. Simple arithmetic would tell you that every other pilot on CEWS in Canada will take home more than the furloughed pilots at AC, probably at least $500 more than CERB. So hopefully the previous posters can see what I'm getting at.

How does that feel being treated?

Jazz/ALPA 1 - AC/ACPA - 0

I wonder if a cardboard cutout of "AC Pilot needs to feed family" would earn an extra 50 cents, for a beggar at Airport/Derry Road. Imagine that hitting CBC. Guess what, it's at zero cost to the company, just like the wage subsidy with no benefits. That's all people are asking for.

[TT1900]

Jazz pilots are on a trajectory to earn more than AC pilots over the next 5 years.

As a Jazz pilot(Captain), I would like to see the math on that, not really sure how you arrived at that

Let me clarify. I mean flat pay guys. Not your mid-seniority captain that is sitting on his porch in his Muskoka cottage making $10-15k+ per month to enjoy their beer. Not earning, but making.

But it's not about the seniors (for once).

For starters, Jazz guys will get CEWS for the duration of the program. AC refuses to.

People were told that it was a lottery to get into AC, yet the bottom guys aren't getting afforded basic decency of continuing the CEWS. Maybe they don't need any benefits, but CEWS goes a lot farther for families than CERB. Many of them took paycuts to get to AC, but now a few have resorted to DoorDash to supplement their income. I'm sure the beggars around the major intersections in Toronto are earning way more.

So while this pandemic unfolds and recovery occurs over the next few years, Jazz and Jazz ALPA seems to want to do right by their guys. Good on them. Same for the other airlines in Canada.

As for AC guys, it's crickets. Not a word. Yet. As of today. Less than two weeks to go to the end of the month and one can imagine the stress of many families from a failed cooperation between company and union.

Think Trudeau will put the brakes on the CEWS by the end of August? Think again. Will be till next February at the earliest. ALPA would reasonably do their part to extend this for everyone. Their actions speak louder than words. But as of today, AC families stay in limbo.

The common decency to the ones who worked their career to arrive at AC, has not been extended. Simple arithmetic would tell you that every other pilot on CEWS in Canada will take home more than the furloughed pilots at AC, probably at least $500 more than CERB. So hopefully the previous posters can see what I'm getting at.

How does that feel being treated?

Jazz/ALPA 1 - AC/ACPA - 0

I wonder if a cardboard cutout of "AC Pilot needs to feed family" would earn an extra 50 cents, for a beggar at Airport/Derry Road. Imagine that hitting CBC. Guess what, it's at zero cost to the company, just like the wage subsidy with no benefits. That's all people are asking for.

Rationalize things all you like, if given the choice I’d still rather be an AC pilot with an AC seniority number.

[mbav8r]

Jazz pilots are on a trajectory to earn more than AC pilots over the next 5 years.

As a Jazz pilot(Captain), I would like to see the math on that, not really sure how you arrived at that

Let me clarify. I mean flat pay guys. Not your mid-seniority captain that is sitting on his porch in his Muskoka cottage making $10-15k+ per month to enjoy their beer. Not earning, but making.

But it's not about the seniors (for once).

For starters, Jazz guys will get CEWS for the duration of the program. AC refuses to.

People were told that it was a lottery to get into AC, yet the bottom guys aren't getting afforded basic decency of continuing the CEWS. Maybe they don't need any benefits, but CEWS goes a lot farther for families than CERB. Many of them took paycuts to get to AC, but now a few have resorted to DoorDash to supplement their income. I'm sure the beggars around the major intersections in Toronto are earning way more.

So while this pandemic unfolds and recovery occurs over the next few years, Jazz and Jazz ALPA seems to want to do right by their guys. Good on them. Same for the other airlines in Canada.

As for AC guys, it's crickets. Not a word. Yet. As of today. Less than two weeks to go to the end of the month and one can imagine the stress of many families from a failed cooperation between company and union.

Think Trudeau will put the brakes on the CEWS by the end of August? Think again. Will be till next February at the earliest. ALPA would reasonably do their part to extend this for everyone. Their actions speak louder than words. But as of today, AC families stay in limbo.

The common decency to the ones who worked their career to arrive at AC, has not been extended. Simple arithmetic would tell you that every other pilot on CEWS in Canada will take home more than the furloughed pilots at AC, probably at least $500 more than CERB. So hopefully the previous posters can see what I'm getting at.

How does that feel being treated?

Jazz/ALPA 1 - AC/ACPA - 0

I wonder if a cardboard cutout of "AC Pilot needs to feed family" would earn an extra 50 cents, for a beggar at Airport/Derry Road. Imagine that hitting CBC. Guess what, it's at zero cost to the company, just like the wage subsidy with no benefits. That's all people are asking for.

That is the crux of the topic, it is not zero cost to the company.
Active Jazz pilots had to give up a couple things and inactive pilots on CEWS are paying for their reduced benefits(No dental, life or STD/LTD) as well as no pension contribution from pilot or company.
The active pilots are foregoing the annual 2% raise, some other temporary lets to contract language we needed to continue the CEWS program.
If ACPA approaches it to negate the cost to the company like pension and benefits, you may see it extended but what’s left for the active pilots to give, they’re already at 55 hr blocking, I don’t see how anyone could expect more.
Yes, it is a terrible situation, I’ve been out of work and certainly feel for those affected, what you need to realize is CEWS was great for the company and furloughed pilots if this was more of a short term situation, the reality is, this will be much longer than originally thought.
My advice, go get your class one and drive a truck for a bit, until things start to pick up, I did it for 3 and half years post 9/11.

[alkaseltzer]

As a Jazz pilot(Captain), I would like to see the math on that, not really sure how you arrived at that

Let me clarify. I mean flat pay guys. Not your mid-seniority captain that is sitting on his porch in his Muskoka cottage making $10-15k+ per month to enjoy their beer. Not earning, but making.

But it's not about the seniors (for once).

For starters, Jazz guys will get CEWS for the duration of the program. AC refuses to.

People were told that it was a lottery to get into AC, yet the bottom guys aren't getting afforded basic decency of continuing the CEWS. Maybe they don't need any benefits, but CEWS goes a lot farther for families than CERB. Many of them took paycuts to get to AC, but now a few have resorted to DoorDash to supplement their income. I'm sure the beggars around the major intersections in Toronto are earning way more.

So while this pandemic unfolds and recovery occurs over the next few years, Jazz and Jazz ALPA seems to want to do right by their guys. Good on them. Same for the other airlines in Canada.

As for AC guys, it's crickets. Not a word. Yet. As of today. Less than two weeks to go to the end of the month and one can imagine the stress of many families from a failed cooperation between company and union.

Think Trudeau will put the brakes on the CEWS by the end of August? Think again. Will be till next February at the earliest. ALPA would reasonably do their part to extend this for everyone. Their actions speak louder than words. But as of today, AC families stay in limbo.

The common decency to the ones who worked their career to arrive at AC, has not been extended. Simple arithmetic would tell you that every other pilot on CEWS in Canada will take home more than the furloughed pilots at AC, probably at least $500 more than CERB. So hopefully the previous posters can see what I'm getting at.

How does that feel being treated?

Jazz/ALPA 1 - AC/ACPA - 0

I wonder if a cardboard cutout of "AC Pilot needs to feed family" would earn an extra 50 cents, for a beggar at Airport/Derry Road. Imagine that hitting CBC. Guess what, it's at zero cost to the company, just like the wage subsidy with no benefits. That's all people are asking for.

That is the crux of the topic, it is not zero cost to the company.
Active Jazz pilots had to give up a couple things and inactive pilots on CEWS are paying for their reduced benefits(No dental, life or STD/LTD) as well as no pension contribution from pilot or company.
The active pilots are foregoing the annual 2% raise, some other temporary lets to contract language we needed to continue the CEWS program.
If ACPA approaches it to negate the cost to the company like pension and benefits, you may see it extended but what’s left for the active pilots to give, they’re already at 55 hr blocking, I don’t see how anyone could expect more.
Yes, it is a terrible situation, I’ve been out of work and certainly feel for those affected, what you need to realize is CEWS was great for the company and furloughed pilots if this was more of a short term situation, the reality is, this will be much longer than originally thought.
My advice, go get your class one and drive a truck for a bit, until things start to pick up, I did it for 3 and half years post 9/11.

It can be at ZERO cost to the company. I disagree. Look around the country.

As an unproductive pilot doing zero flying, it would be presumptious to expect benefits and pension contribution while on CEWS. Transat, Sunwing, Westjet, Porter, etc all have their guys on CEWS. I don't think anyone expects a capitalistic model to turn socialist. My tax dollars over the years fed into the system, and if I'm entitled to CEWS, we should not be blocked from it. We have recall rights; whether we are called in two months or ten months, the CEWS should be extended for all employees that have recall rights. If Transat decides to postpone their July opening to October, are you telling me they should stop CEWS? Run that by them.

Ask ANY of the bottom 262 pilots or so that have received their furlough notice what they'd want to receive come June 30th and July 7th respectively.

The furloughed pilots would appreciate your advice about driving a truck/other career options, that's not at the core of this argument. If we have recall rights; we should be on CEWS. The union should be fighting to extend this for those guys and the company having the decency to see to this effect.

I don't like airing out our dirty laundry in public. But this is terrible. Heartless. Twisting Trudeau's words to fit their (the airline) narrative. And today he said that he expects employers to use it; will the unions jump on that wording and fight for the guys?


Bueller?

[mbav8r]

Let me clarify. I mean flat pay guys. Not your mid-seniority captain that is sitting on his porch in his Muskoka cottage making $10-15k+ per month to enjoy their beer. Not earning, but making.

But it's not about the seniors (for once).

For starters, Jazz guys will get CEWS for the duration of the program. AC refuses to.

People were told that it was a lottery to get into AC, yet the bottom guys aren't getting afforded basic decency of continuing the CEWS. Maybe they don't need any benefits, but CEWS goes a lot farther for families than CERB. Many of them took paycuts to get to AC, but now a few have resorted to DoorDash to supplement their income. I'm sure the beggars around the major intersections in Toronto are earning way more.

So while this pandemic unfolds and recovery occurs over the next few years, Jazz and Jazz ALPA seems to want to do right by their guys. Good on them. Same for the other airlines in Canada.

As for AC guys, it's crickets. Not a word. Yet. As of today. Less than two weeks to go to the end of the month and one can imagine the stress of many families from a failed cooperation between company and union.

Think Trudeau will put the brakes on the CEWS by the end of August? Think again. Will be till next February at the earliest. ALPA would reasonably do their part to extend this for everyone. Their actions speak louder than words. But as of today, AC families stay in limbo.

The common decency to the ones who worked their career to arrive at AC, has not been extended. Simple arithmetic would tell you that every other pilot on CEWS in Canada will take home more than the furloughed pilots at AC, probably at least $500 more than CERB. So hopefully the previous posters can see what I'm getting at.

How does that feel being treated?

Jazz/ALPA 1 - AC/ACPA - 0

I wonder if a cardboard cutout of "AC Pilot needs to feed family" would earn an extra 50 cents, for a beggar at Airport/Derry Road. Imagine that hitting CBC. Guess what, it's at zero cost to the company, just like the wage subsidy with no benefits. That's all people are asking for.

That is the crux of the topic, it is not zero cost to the company.
Active Jazz pilots had to give up a couple things and inactive pilots on CEWS are paying for their reduced benefits(No dental, life or STD/LTD) as well as no pension contribution from pilot or company.
The active pilots are foregoing the annual 2% raise, some other temporary lets to contract language we needed to continue the CEWS program.
If ACPA approaches it to negate the cost to the company like pension and benefits, you may see it extended but what’s left for the active pilots to give, they’re already at 55 hr blocking, I don’t see how anyone could expect more.
Yes, it is a terrible situation, I’ve been out of work and certainly feel for those affected, what you need to realize is CEWS was great for the company and furloughed pilots if this was more of a short term situation, the reality is, this will be much longer than originally thought.
My advice, go get your class one and drive a truck for a bit, until things start to pick up, I did it for 3 and half years post 9/11.

It can be at ZERO cost to the company. I disagree. Look around the country.

As an unproductive pilot doing zero flying, it would be presumptious to expect benefits and pension contribution while on CEWS. Transat, Sunwing, Westjet, Porter, etc all have their guys on CEWS. I don't think anyone expects a capitalistic model to turn socialist. My tax dollars over the years fed into the system, and if I'm entitled to CEWS, we should not be blocked from it. We have recall rights; whether we are called in two months or ten months, the CEWS should be extended for all employees that have recall rights. If Transat decides to postpone their July opening to October, are you telling me they should stop CEWS? Run that by them.

Ask ANY of the bottom 262 pilots or so that have received their furlough notice what they'd want to receive come June 30th and July 7th respectively.

The furloughed pilots would appreciate your advice about driving a truck/other career options, that's not at the core of this argument. If we have recall rights; we should be on CEWS. The union should be fighting to extend this for those guys and the company having the decency to see to this effect.

I don't like airing out our dirty laundry in public. But this is terrible. Heartless. Twisting Trudeau's words to fit their (the airline) narrative. And today he said that he expects employers to use it; will the unions jump on that wording and fight for the guys?


Bueller?

I agree, ACPA should be working on getting it extended, a simple agreement that no cost to the company for benefits or pension or even pensionable service accumulated should do the trick. I hope they manage but again realize, your recall rights are only good to you if you are recalled before the government program runs out, time to work on plan b

[rudder]

CR has an agenda. It is not with ACPA. Not with CUPE. Not with IAM. Not with UNIFOR. Not with CALDA.

It is with YOW. Maximum pressure. Force industry tailored assistance.

There is nothing that CR wants from the AC unions other than support for that agenda.

[Rowdy]

CR has an agenda. It is not with ACPA. Not with CUPE. Not with IAM. Not with UNIFOR. Not with CALDA.

It is with YOW. Maximum pressure. Force industry tailored assistance.

There is nothing that CR wants from the AC unions other than support for that agenda.

Bingo.

He wants the cash to keep the company afloat. Does not care about the employee group (nor should he)

[alkaseltzer]

All valid and good points.

Jazz came out today stating that medical benefits only will get partially covered (30%) for their furloughed pilots + getting CEWS. (for the entire duration of the CEWS program)

Jazz is a subcontractor to AC, yet an independent company. Good on them for not following the current narrative at AC to look after their guys.

Are you telling me that all Air Canada Pilots and Flight Attendants taking a paycut are (partially) in effect, subsidizing Jazz benefits? How does Mike Rousseau justify this course of action? And after Trudeau states that all employers should be using it. Where's the integrity? What am I not understanding here? Heartless or mild pericarditis?

Rowdy -> which ship is the priority? Not enough life jackets on the Titanic? The senior pilots and senior members of the union seem to be the ones in the lifeboats just watching everyone else struggle. Some are sending up flares...some are trying to grab onto floating furniture in the icy Atlantic.

That's exactly how the 242 furloughed pilots feel right now.

[mbav8r]

All valid and good points.

Jazz came out today stating that medical benefits only will get partially covered (30%) for their furloughed pilots + getting CEWS. (for the entire duration of the CEWS program)

Jazz is a subcontractor to AC, yet an independent company. Good on them for not following the current narrative at AC to look after their guys.

Are you telling me that all Air Canada Pilots and Flight Attendants taking a paycut are (partially) in effect, subsidizing Jazz benefits? How does Mike Rousseau justify this course of action? And after Trudeau states that all employers should be using it. Where's the integrity? What am I not understanding here? Heartless or mild pericarditis?

Rowdy -> which ship is the priority? Not enough life jackets on the Titanic? The senior pilots and senior members of the union seem to be the ones in the lifeboats just watching everyone else struggle. Some are sending up flares...some are trying to grab onto floating furniture in the icy Atlantic.

That's exactly how the 242 furloughed pilots feel right now.

Slight correction, the inactive pilots benefits have been reduced to extended health care only, no dental, life, STD, LTD, AD&D.
They(the pilots) will pay their portion of 30% from payroll deduction, in addition to this there is no pension contribution from the company or the pilot, essentially no cost to the company to keep them on CEWS, except I’m not sure if the company has to contribute to CPP and EI.
As for your analogy that the senior pilots are in the lifeboats and don’t care, I find that statement offensive, they are only receiving about 2/3 of their normal salary in order that many more pilots were not furloughed.
The remaining pilots took a 33% pay cut to save many jobs, what is it you want them to do? Use some common sense, they could go further and take a 50% block to save more jobs, what would your paycheque look like at 50% block. The pilots about to be furloughed are mostly, if not all, on the first four years, 50% of that is less than EI for most of you given that EI is 55% of your salary up to the max.
Bottom line, I find your attitude towards the senior pilots to be selfish, you don’t even recognize they’re already making a sacrifice for many to remain employed, in all likelihood there will be more cuts coming in the fall, so as I said before, time to work on plan b.
Good luck, sincerely

[florch]

60k income takes home 46k in Ontario
300k income takes home 174265 or about 4x as much take home. When gross was 5x.

I wouldn't take silence for agreement on this one. 53.5% income tax is high on your top dollars in Ontario. in 2015 it was 46.5% when Wynne and Trudeau each raised income taxes to our current level. What is a reasonable upper limit to you? Another way to look at it is the guy making $300k makes 9x the contribution to society of the guy at $60k. (126k/14k by your numbers)

[tbaylx]

60k income takes home 46k in Ontario
300k income takes home 174265 or about 4x as much take home. When gross was 5x.

I wouldn't take silence for agreement on this one. 53.5% income tax is high on your top dollars in Ontario. in 2015 it was 46.5% when Wynne and Trudeau each raised income taxes to our current level. What is a reasonable upper limit to you? Another way to look at it is the guy making $300k makes 9x the contribution to society of the guy at $60k. (126k/14k by your numbers)

Top 10% of the income earners in Canada pay 54% of the income tax collected. The bottom 40% of income earners pay no tax after government benefits. It's darn close to universal basic income at the expense of the top earners and the CERB isn't going to be easy to turn off now.