P180 job ad: "don't apply"

[complexintentions]

I just have one question.

What is a P180?

[kilo3bravo]

Piaggio Rinaldo Avanti

P180

[goldeneagle]

I just have one question.

What is a P180?

Piaggio. Kinda like a kingair that got turned wrong way around on the assembly line.

[fish4life]

Although they are impressively fast

[shimmydampner]

The notion of laid off airline pilots scoffing at a job ad on the one hand, while out of the other side of their mouths they whinge about being excluded from applying for said job, is rather amusing.

[mmm..bacon]

I'd fly that thing for free in return for the stiffy I'd get just from looking at it!

[ahramin]

The notion of laid off airline pilots scoffing at a job ad on the one hand, while out of the other side of their mouths they whinge about being excluded from applying for said job, is rather amusing.

Agreed. But the notion of a flight department manager so insecure in their capabilities that they want to actively discourage anyone with more experience than them from applying is equally amusing.

[fur1ough]

I'd argue they're actually better off finding a forloughed pilot or one on an LOA, than just another corporate pilot who will jump ship to the next best thing as soon as they can.

[Dh8Classic]

Isn't it interesting to see so many connector pilots who had no problem greedily hogging most of the interviews and hiring at AC and reserving their seniority at Westjet(like they somehow deserved it) now not so happy that it has come back to bite them. You can read an example here.

viewtopic.php?p=1114269#p1114269

You took a gamble coming OTS and it didn’t payoff.

Well buddy, you took your gamble and now it is not paying off. Companies don't want you now because you will be gone at the first opportunity. An Off the Street Guy might be gone at the first opportunity as well but his opportunity will not happen nearly as soon as the guy with a seniority number.

It kind of reminds me of the pilots at the majors in the US. They were all too happy to exclude the guys with no degree from a wonderful high paying job simply because they flew for 4 years instead of getting a degree, even in something totally outside aviation(or having some other special qualification). Well now the guys with no degree will be going left seat of a widebody at a freighter company while the guys who had their jobs semi-reserved at the majors are soon to be out on the street.

A few of the no degree guys might be glad how the limited opportunities they had for unfair reasons have worked out for them in the end.

[fur1ough]

With all that said, and I do somewhat agree regarding some of those people who felt they were somehow "better" than others by working at the connectors and got their ML jobs... I would still rather have my seniority number and no job for the next two years than a 703/704 job and no ML seniority.

I can make do financially and have enough back up options outside of aviation that I'm not worried. I know others may not, especially those who have large financial obligations but in 3+ years they will all still be better off by having their number at AC or WJ. Pilots are pretty resilient and I know most will manage to weather the storm.

[valleyboy]

there will be a lot of fat trimming, WS is already doing it. any marginal routes will be gone, pilot numbers will not be the same and recall will be a long time coming for the real junior guys. it is becoming very clear to me the best aviation jobs right now and for that matter anytime, are the freight dogs. it's ironic that a freight company has the best collective agreement in the industry. passengers are fickle and we now find out how much health adds to the mix.

[ayseven]

I don't know who is "better off", but I do know that the guys who have been hired and now laid off from majors are going back some day, while the rest of us fight over the scraps. I sincerely feel for any of them, but the reality is that they have some security nobody else has, and there IS light at the end of the tunnel. It is just hard for them to have to keep fighting, when it took so long to get there in the first place, and they thought they could relax for once.

[digits_]

With all that said, and I do somewhat agree regarding some of those people who felt they were somehow "better" than others by working at the connectors and got their ML jobs... I would still rather have my seniority number and no job for the next two years than a 703/704 job and no ML seniority.

I can make do financially and have enough back up options outside of aviation that I'm not worried. I know others may not, especially those who have large financial obligations but in 3+ years they will all still be better off by having their number at AC or WJ. Pilots are pretty resilient and I know most will manage to weather the storm.

Posts in other topics seem to hint recall rights are limited in time. Is that incorrect?

[shimmydampner]

Agreed. But the notion of a flight department manager so insecure in their capabilities that they want to actively discourage anyone with more experience than them from applying is equally amusing.

Really? Your takeaway from the caveat precluding recently laid off airline pilots from applying was that it's due to ops manager insecurities about the mad skills of all those laid off 2500 hour copilots?

[Turbolag]

Well,

I would suggest that the Piaggio can now be purchased for roughly 2 million USD; which is considerably cheaper than the nearly 7 million my old company used to get them for new. This could possibly allow an individual with lower net worth to operate this aircraft. This would mean that operationally, corners would be cut for salaries, maintenance and scheduling. Maybe.

If you also consider the limitations of the P180, this would support the conclusions above. The piaggio was designed to operate between major city centre airports in Europe for executives and the like. The piaggio is very weight limited when originally designed (MCTOW 11,550lbs) lending to one to two passengers with full fuel, no bags and you could run out of nose up trim on final with the right loading. So, short distances, light loads and occasional use. When brought to North America; larger loads over longer distances and put into fractional ownership companies with higher usage numbers the maintenance issues start to show. So I would ask myself, why did an operator choose this aircraft? Luxury at a bargain price? There are better aircraft out there in that category. Is it the price then?

With the right owner, and the proper staffing and maintenance behind it, the piaggio can be a very nice aircraft to operate. I believe this situation would be the exception to the rule when it comes to aviation operations in Canada unfortunately.

A job ad requesting high time and a bond and no laid-off airline staff points towards “what I need from you” rather than what our company is and what our focus and goals are and team we are trying to build, would make me think this would be a transitional posting for someone needing employment and hoping to move on. Hopefully I’m wrong.

Side note: the aircraft in question used to be owned by the RCMP for many years.

[ahramin]

Agreed. But the notion of a flight department manager so insecure in their capabilities that they want to actively discourage anyone with more experience than them from applying is equally amusing.

Really? Your takeaway from the caveat precluding recently laid off airline pilots from applying was that it's due to ops manager insecurities about the mad skills of all those laid off 2500 hour copilots?

It's not my takeaway, it's my experience. I know nothing of this particular ops manager.

[shimmydampner]

So, at some point when you were laid off, you were told not to apply on a job, or maybe you were turned down for a job and the reason you were given is because you had more experience than a manager who felt insecure about that fact? But it wasn't this operator. Strange story, but I fail to see its relevance here.

[fur1ough]

With all that said, and I do somewhat agree regarding some of those people who felt they were somehow "better" than others by working at the connectors and got their ML jobs... I would still rather have my seniority number and no job for the next two years than a 703/704 job and no ML seniority.

I can make do financially and have enough back up options outside of aviation that I'm not worried. I know others may not, especially those who have large financial obligations but in 3+ years they will all still be better off by having their number at AC or WJ. Pilots are pretty resilient and I know most will manage to weather the storm.

Posts in other topics seem to hint recall rights are limited in time. Is that incorrect?

You can delay recall until all juniors are back on property. At which point you can then ask for an LOA. In the past the company has been more than willing to work with people who have a few months left or even a year on a contract elsewhere. They aren't going to screw you over, based on historical data.

If a junior pilot got a two year bond on a job as of this summer, it's unlikely they will be back by fall/spring 2022 anyways. Since recalls go in reverse. And then if your number comes up a few months LOA to finish up your contract likely won't be an issue.

Even now if you haven't been laid off yet but expect it, you can take up to a 3 year LOA until Sept 2023. So if someone found a job they liked and they wanted a 2-3 year commitment it really shouldn't be an issue.

[ahramin]

So, at some point when you were laid off, you were told not to apply on a job, or maybe you were turned down for a job and the reason you were given is because you had more experience than a manager who felt insecure about that fact? But it wasn't this operator. Strange story, but I fail to see its relevance here.

Not quite. I'm a consultant for corporate flight operations. I've seen this attitude more often than not, and given a job posting that specifically wants to avoid hiring a highly experienced pilot who would be there for two years and then leave, it seems quite possible that it is the case. Not saying it is the case, but that's how it looks to me based on my experience supporting dozens of corporate flight departments over a decade.

[digits_]

With all that said, and I do somewhat agree regarding some of those people who felt they were somehow "better" than others by working at the connectors and got their ML jobs... I would still rather have my seniority number and no job for the next two years than a 703/704 job and no ML seniority.

I can make do financially and have enough back up options outside of aviation that I'm not worried. I know others may not, especially those who have large financial obligations but in 3+ years they will all still be better off by having their number at AC or WJ. Pilots are pretty resilient and I know most will manage to weather the storm.

Posts in other topics seem to hint recall rights are limited in time. Is that incorrect?

You can delay recall until all juniors are back on property. At which point you can then ask for an LOA. In the past the company has been more than willing to work with people who have a few months left or even a year on a contract elsewhere. They aren't going to screw you over, based on historical data.

If a junior pilot got a two year bond on a job as of this summer, it's unlikely they will be back by fall/spring 2022 anyways. Since recalls go in reverse. And then if your number comes up a few months LOA to finish up your contract likely won't be an issue.

Even now if you haven't been laid off yet but expect it, you can take up to a 3 year LOA until Sept 2023. So if someone found a job they liked and they wanted a 2-3 year commitment it really shouldn't be an issue.

If it takes, let's say 6 years, before all the laid off people are back at their old jobs, then during those 6 years the company is not allowed to hire other pilots, they *have* to rehire the laid off people. Is that correct? I was told there was some kind of time limit on those things. But the source wasn't too trustworthy.

[garfield]

Yes there is a time limit, but it depends on the company (collective agreement).

[fur1ough]

At AC, all forloughed pilots must be recalled before any new hires are given jobs.

There is no limit on time. I believe WestJet is 10 years?

[shimmydampner]

Not quite. I'm a consultant for corporate flight operations. I've seen this attitude more often than not, and given a job posting that specifically wants to avoid hiring a highly experienced pilot who would be there for two years and then leave, it seems quite possible that it is the case. Not saying it is the case, but that's how it looks to me based on my experience supporting dozens of corporate flight departments over a decade.

Ah, I see. Interesting. So would you say it's based on personal insecurities about relative experience, or perceptions about potential attitudes that might be brought into the flight department? I would imagine there are significant differences in how corporate versus airlines operate and what is expected of the flight crews.
At any rate, I would think that the majority of those laid off currently are not "highly experienced" and I took it to mean that they don't want to hire and train someone who will end up bailing on them with little notice when the recall comes, which I think is a fair concern.

[fur1ough]

You'd be surprised. Lots of people laid off right now with 5000+ hours, 705 Captain time, 737 Captain time (new hire AC pilots from Sunwing or WJ).

Lots of new hires at AC from Jazz with thousands of hours and Captain experience.

[ahramin]

Ah, I see. Interesting. So would you say it's based on personal insecurities about relative experience, or perceptions about potential attitudes that might be brought into the flight department? I would imagine there are significant differences in how corporate versus airlines operate and what is expected of the flight crews.
At any rate, I would think that the majority of those laid off currently are not "highly experienced" and I took it to mean that they don't want to hire and train someone who will end up bailing on them with little notice when the recall comes, which I think is a fair concern.

To quote one ops manager "We don't want someone putting their leg up all over the place". In my opinion it comes down to ego. Many pilots invest too much of their identity into being pilots, then into being above average pilots, then into being amazing pilots. By the time someone like this ends up in charge of a flight department, being the top dog in their own scrap yard is very much part of their self worth. I like the way Chris Hadfield put it in his book when he said he always wanted to be a test pilot and astronaut, but his identity didn't depend on him becoming those things. He was always going to be happy being Chris Hadfield regardless of whether or not those particular goals were achieved. I'm sure it's easy for someone with this attitude learn or take in pointers from anyone around them. On the other hand someone whose identity is wrapped up in being the top pilot in the company can have a very tough time accepting advice from a pilot that is supposed to be lower down on the food chain since it looks like an attack on their position, and therefore on them.

In addition to the personality issues, corporate flight departments tend not to have nearly the training or operational resources that airlines have. Airlines have performance engineers, technical pilots, SOPs and training materials written by the actual companies that built their airplanes, and dedicated training departments. Not to mention the pilots tend to stay around for decades rather than years. Corporate flight departments just don't have this level of expertise at their fingertips and the pilot group tends to have to figure everything out on their own. It makes for self reliant pilots who are used to problem solving, but it also makes for pilots who have only figured out what they have figured out. When you bring in someone from the outside who has formal training in a bunch of areas that the corporate pilots have just been muddling along in, it can seem intimidating.

Personally, under the current circumstances the only pilot I would consider for a corporate flight department would be an experienced airline pilot who wants to work corporate for a few years while waiting for the airline side to improve. You get a far more experienced pilot than you would otherwise be able to afford, and can take advantage of that experience to fill in the little gaps that you didn't know exist. Obviously you don't take the first one to come along. You find the one that truly wants the position you are offering and you contract them for an agreed period. I'm sure the company in question isn't interested in 200 hour commercial pilots either, but they aren't going out of their way to make sure they know they aren't welcome. I mean if you are hiring right now it's raining soup and instead of getting a bucket and running outside, this company is worried that there might be an oversize chunk of carrot in there somewhere so they don't want any.