P180 job ad: "don't apply"

[2R]

I just like saying Piaggio , reminds me of Rome , Vespa scooters and weaving through traffic listening to the opera of tooting Fiats .
Nicest Piaggio I saw was a Piaggio Royal , a small amphibious flying boat it looked great ,and sounded really nice .
Piaggio, I think that will be my word for the rest of the day

Mi Scusi ,Piaggio

[Phlyer]

Ah, I see. Interesting. So would you say it's based on personal insecurities about relative experience, or perceptions about potential attitudes that might be brought into the flight department? I would imagine there are significant differences in how corporate versus airlines operate and what is expected of the flight crews.
At any rate, I would think that the majority of those laid off currently are not "highly experienced" and I took it to mean that they don't want to hire and train someone who will end up bailing on them with little notice when the recall comes, which I think is a fair concern.

To quote one ops manager "We don't want someone putting their leg up all over the place". In my opinion it comes down to ego. Many pilots invest too much of their identity into being pilots, then into being above average pilots, then into being amazing pilots. By the time someone like this ends up in charge of a flight department, being the top dog in their own scrap yard is very much part of their self worth. I like the way Chris Hadfield put it in his book when he said he always wanted to be a test pilot and astronaut, but his identity didn't depend on him becoming those things. He was always going to be happy being Chris Hadfield regardless of whether or not those particular goals were achieved. I'm sure it's easy for someone with this attitude learn or take in pointers from anyone around them. On the other hand someone whose identity is wrapped up in being the top pilot in the company can have a very tough time accepting advice from a pilot that is supposed to be lower down on the food chain since it looks like an attack on their position, and therefore on them.

In addition to the personality issues, corporate flight departments tend not to have nearly the training or operational resources that airlines have. Airlines have performance engineers, technical pilots, SOPs and training materials written by the actual companies that built their airplanes, and dedicated training departments. Not to mention the pilots tend to stay around for decades rather than years. Corporate flight departments just don't have this level of expertise at their fingertips and the pilot group tends to have to figure everything out on their own. It makes for self reliant pilots who are used to problem solving, but it also makes for pilots who have only figured out what they have figured out. When you bring in someone from the outside who has formal training in a bunch of areas that the corporate pilots have just been muddling along in, it can seem intimidating.

Personally, under the current circumstances the only pilot I would consider for a corporate flight department would be an experienced airline pilot who wants to work corporate for a few years while waiting for the airline side to improve. You get a far more experienced pilot than you would otherwise be able to afford, and can take advantage of that experience to fill in the little gaps that you didn't know exist. Obviously you don't take the first one to come along. You find the one that truly wants the position you are offering and you contract them for an agreed period. I'm sure the company in question isn't interested in 200 hour commercial pilots either, but they aren't going out of their way to make sure they know they aren't welcome. I mean if you are hiring right now it's raining soup and instead of getting a bucket and running outside, this company is worried that there might be an oversize chunk of carrot in there somewhere so they don't want any.

Some wise words here

[AntiNakedMan]

I mean if you are hiring right now it's raining soup and instead of getting a bucket and running outside, this company is worried that there might be an oversize chunk of carrot in there somewhere so they don't want any.

Very wise points about what a wise strategy could be for this company, and thanks for answering the age old question “how many posts on a thread before we get a penis size metaphor”.

[rigpiggy]

The notion of laid off airline pilots scoffing at a job ad on the one hand, while out of the other side of their mouths they whinge about being excluded from applying for said job, is rather amusing.

Agreed. But the notion of a flight department manager so insecure in their capabilities that they want to actively discourage anyone with more experience than them from applying is equally amusing.

Actually, you will pretty much be the flight department manager. They want someone independent who can work without a dispatch, load control, customs department at there beck and call

[valleyboy]

I fail to see the issue - sounds like a great gig - single pilot is just a pleasure. If I wasn't retired and looking I would certainly apply. I find usually things are what you make them.

[Dh8Classic]

Ah, I see. Interesting. So would you say it's based on personal insecurities about relative experience, or perceptions about potential attitudes that might be brought into the flight department? I would imagine there are significant differences in how corporate versus airlines operate and what is expected of the flight crews.
At any rate, I would think that the majority of those laid off currently are not "highly experienced" and I took it to mean that they don't want to hire and train someone who will end up bailing on them with little notice when the recall comes, which I think is a fair concern.

To quote one ops manager "We don't want someone putting their leg up all over the place". In my opinion it comes down to ego. Many pilots invest too much of their identity into being pilots, then into being above average pilots, then into being amazing pilots. By the time someone like this ends up in charge of a flight department, being the top dog in their own scrap yard is very much part of their self worth. I like the way Chris Hadfield put it in his book when he said he always wanted to be a test pilot and astronaut, but his identity didn't depend on him becoming those things. He was always going to be happy being Chris Hadfield regardless of whether or not those particular goals were achieved. I'm sure it's easy for someone with this attitude learn or take in pointers from anyone around them. On the other hand someone whose identity is wrapped up in being the top pilot in the company can have a very tough time accepting advice from a pilot that is supposed to be lower down on the food chain since it looks like an attack on their position, and therefore on them.

In addition to the personality issues, corporate flight departments tend not to have nearly the training or operational resources that airlines have. Airlines have performance engineers, technical pilots, SOPs and training materials written by the actual companies that built their airplanes, and dedicated training departments. Not to mention the pilots tend to stay around for decades rather than years. Corporate flight departments just don't have this level of expertise at their fingertips and the pilot group tends to have to figure everything out on their own. It makes for self reliant pilots who are used to problem solving, but it also makes for pilots who have only figured out what they have figured out. When you bring in someone from the outside who has formal training in a bunch of areas that the corporate pilots have just been muddling along in, it can seem intimidating.

Personally, under the current circumstances the only pilot I would consider for a corporate flight department would be an experienced airline pilot who wants to work corporate for a few years while waiting for the airline side to improve. You get a far more experienced pilot than you would otherwise be able to afford, and can take advantage of that experience to fill in the little gaps that you didn't know exist. Obviously you don't take the first one to come along. You find the one that truly wants the position you are offering and you contract them for an agreed period. I'm sure the company in question isn't interested in 200 hour commercial pilots either, but they aren't going out of their way to make sure they know they aren't welcome. I mean if you are hiring right now it's raining soup and instead of getting a bucket and running outside, this company is worried that there might be an oversize chunk of carrot in there somewhere so they don't want any.

From strictly an experience point of view, I would think that the early retirement guy might be best if you want airline experience. It is true that they could jump to the new start-up as a captain or soon to be captain but at least they don't have the need to get back to the mainline mentality that the laid off pilot has. It can even be small things such as Zed tickets which the retired guy already has that will draw away the laid off guy sooner.

[fur1ough]

Furloughed pilots at AC have all their passes for at least a year. FYI.

[jakeandelwood]

"Please email application with your compensation package expectations to the email address above."

I find the above line the most hilarious part of that job ad, i guess its a good way to weed out applicants. is bidding on jobs normal? i could see that being the case if i was a paving company and they wanted their parking lot re-surfaced.

[rigpiggy]

regardless, don't like it....don't apply

[jakeandelwood]

I do want to apply, I'm just having trouble coming up with a number figure to put down. If I go to high they will toss my resume, to low and ill be stuck making squat, maybe i'll put "enough money so I'll stick around and make a career out of working for you". It sounds like that's what they want from the employee they seek anyway.

[digits_]

How could you even put a reliable figure down if you don't even know all the job details?

[iflyforpie]

It’s interesting. I just realized that this is basically the same company (or the same owners) that runs an aircraft salvage company.

They used to be a great source for used light aircraft parts, and they had all kinds of projects for sale—I actually wound up finishing one that they couldn’t sell into a flyable airplane. They stopped selling light aircraft parts because helicopters became more lucrative.

They also dabbled in light single piston survey work and had an old Cheyenne for the occasional charter.

The Piaggio is a step up into the big leagues and Kelowna was obviously chosen over their Kamloops location for a better more upscale market.

But this is still champagne ambitions on a beer budget (though not as cringeworthy as those who try to operate “executive” Navajos) and a company that looks to maximize opportunities while minimizing risk via short term gains rather than long term investments.

They probably acquired the plane for cheap (ex-RCMP.. I bet the airframe hours are in the 90th percentile of the P180 fleet) and are looking to do the same for crew. The pilot with the best qualifications for the lowest price will be successful candidate—and obviously one who won’t jump ship when the recalls come back.

Please don’t put anything less than several thousand north of six figures for your desired compensation and make sure that days off and vacation and per diem/expenses and any other benefits are well defined and understood. Loyalty goes both ways.

[fur1ough]

The fact they want to fly it single pilot IFR is a red flag in of itself.

Means not only are they trying to cut costs by removing a person from the flight deck, but also open up an extra seat for passengers (the front) and shows they lack a safety mindset.

[iflyforpie]

In addition to the personality issues, corporate flight departments tend not to have nearly the training or operational resources that airlines have. Airlines have performance engineers, technical pilots, SOPs and training materials written by the actual companies that built their airplanes, and dedicated training departments. Not to mention the pilots tend to stay around for decades rather than years. Corporate flight departments just don't have this level of expertise at their fingertips and the pilot group tends to have to figure everything out on their own. It makes for self reliant pilots who are used to problem solving, but it also makes for pilots who have only figured out what they have figured out. When you bring in someone from the outside who has formal training in a bunch of areas that the corporate pilots have just been muddling along in, it can seem intimidating.

Personally, under the current circumstances the only pilot I would consider for a corporate flight department would be an experienced airline pilot who wants to work corporate for a few years while waiting for the airline side to improve. You get a far more experienced pilot than you would otherwise be able to afford, and can take advantage of that experience to fill in the little gaps that you didn't know exist. Obviously you don't take the first one to come along. You find the one that truly wants the position you are offering and you contract them for an agreed period. I'm sure the company in question isn't interested in 200 hour commercial pilots either, but they aren't going out of their way to make sure they know they aren't welcome. I mean if you are hiring right now it's raining soup and instead of getting a bucket and running outside, this company is worried that there might be an oversize chunk of carrot in there somewhere so they don't want any.

Unless you’ve got an airline pilot with a significant amount of previous charter/corporate experience, many advantages are going to be offset by disadvantages.

I’ve seen this first hand, and the results are often not encouraging. It’s not even arrogance and intimidation; it’s that having all of this training and experience that means precisely jack squat flying a turboprop in and out of small, uncontrolled airfields—many with no approaches or departures—surrounded by lots of terrain. Even in and out of high density airspace where being able to hold huge amounts of airspeed and high rates of descent until very late in the approach and being able to do a last minute side step or a tight visual circuit and a long landing can cut a significant amount of time off. Our stabilized approach criteria is <2000 FPM past the FAF.

Formal training is great, but it won’t prepare you for situations that charter and corporate pilots face everyday. The airline pilot is still going to have to figure it out. I’ve given plenty of ex-airline pilots who are now flying corporate advice for going in and out of airports they have never seen and would never have seen in their airline careers.

No, you don’t have entire departments devoted to the performance of an aircraft where the cost index is 999, all of the time... unless you need to tanker fuel to a place where there isn’t any or need to extend range to remove a fuelling stop or there is a big tailwind or a massive headwind where taking a lower TAS is advantageous. And even if you don’t follow that, the cost and time is so insignificant on a small aircraft as to hardly matter at all.

I think it’s mostly a pilot thing on all sides. The operations manager who’s in charge of their own little universe is no different than the airline pilot thinking that they are god or even that their experience makes any difference.

Each knows what they know and each has lots to learn. For the airline pilot, the hardest thing is going to be operating single crew with no dispatch or ground crew, having lots of blank areas on the map without formal guidance where experience and decision making have to happen—not because it couldn’t be applied, but to not constrain pilots to a specific action

Just because I’m also a pilot, I think that an AME with significant mountain and turboprop time would be the best candidate.

[valleyboy]

nothing wrong with single pilot IFR but that in its self up's the anti so cost savings should be minor. Work a deal where the company let's you use the aircraft fire your holidays

[Big Pistons Forever]

From what I am hearing these days operators often don't get to pick who they like, they get told what what the pilot has to have if they want to get insurance at a reasonable price or even at all. Brand new to a pretty sporty airplane with a relatively high hull value, and single pilot, I think this operator is going to get a pretty good looking at by the underwriter.....

[fur1ough]

Based on insurance, and what a SPIFR pilot would demand in pay it may end up being cheaper to just run it two crew....

[valleyboy]

I guess from a company point of view one has to wonder how the hiring mind works. Possibly they think a 10-20 thousand hour single pilot is safer and better in their eyes than a 2-4000 hr captain and a 200 hr F/O I wonder if we will ever find out - it's so interesting that this thread has continued on -- just shows how weird the industry is now. When I look back and speculate where I would have been if I was still working and evidence says I would have still been working with a great income. Like I said level one carriers and their feeders are not necessarily the best option, nor are fun in the sun charter companies. You need essential service and freight in the mix.

[ayseven]

I often wonder how it would be to work again.