Requesting advise for career change to Pilot

[KiloDelta]

Hi,
I am looking for some advise. I am hoping that some of you might help me as you are experienced.

Firstly, I am 40 years old with a very sable career, grossing 90K a year. Over the years I have saved up to 100k for home purchase. I am a family man.

Since, graduating high school, I had wanted to be a pilot but things did not turn out that way as flight school is expensive, plus I did not have the support, motivation from anyone and I at that time also did not understand the proper route to go about training.

The flying bug has bit me once again and wondering if it would be wise to make this change

1) I am quite athletic, lead an athletic life style, eat healthy, is the pilot lifestyle going to be difficult to maintain along with a healthy lifestyle?
2) How is the pilot lifestyle, is it generally unhealthy - with lack of sleep and unhealthy airport and hotel food?
3) How hard will it be to get a job after getting CPL 250 hours, plus lets say I get my instructor rating?
4) What would be the average cost of PPL, CPL, IFR, Multi-engine rating, Multi-IFR and Instructor rating?
5) Is the IFR and Multi-engine rating included in the CPL?
6) What is different about the Integrated ATPL vs Modular training. Do graduates of Integrated ATPL have higher chance of getting a job with Jazz or Porter through their pathway program?
7) What would be the best way to make hours after CPL without having to put my family through struggle (example moving north to remote locations)?
Is it better to train in Europe or some other country such as ATP in USA, is their any advantage?

9)If I get a CPL and 250 hours, plus if I immediately get a CRJ or Dash-8 type rating what are the chances of getting a job?

Thanks all for your answers.

[ayseven]

I sense a troll. If not, this will give you an idea of the cynicism you might expect in this industry.

[KiloDelta]

I sense a troll. If not, this will give you an idea of the cynicism you might expect in this industry.

Not a troll. Looking for some serious advice. Appreciate. Thanks.

[Ash Ketchum]

Don't do it. Stay in your job, get your PPL and fly for fun.

[KiloDelta]

Don't do it. Stay in your job, get your PPL and fly for fun.

Thanks for the suggestion. Can you please provide an explanation on why so? Are you a pilot or a former pilot?

Best,

[AuxBatOn]

Don't do it. Stay in your job, get your PPL and fly for fun.

Thanks for the suggestion. Can you please provide an explanation on why so? Are you a pilot or a former pilot?

Best,

The industry is currently flooded with pilots, with companies folding and many pilots on furlough or having most their job outright. 6 months ago the answer would have been different but COVID changed the environment.

[KiloDelta]

Don't do it. Stay in your job, get your PPL and fly for fun.

Thanks for the suggestion. Can you please provide an explanation on why so? Are you a pilot or a former pilot?

Best,

The industry is currently flooded with pilots, with companies folding and many pilots on furlough or having most their job outright. 6 months ago the answer would have been different but COVID changed the environment.

I understand the current situation, but how long it is going to last? It is not going to last forever. Maybe another year or two and then hiring is going to ramp up.

[Ash Ketchum]

Don't do it. Stay in your job, get your PPL and fly for fun.

Thanks for the suggestion. Can you please provide an explanation on why so? Are you a pilot or a former pilot?

Best,

I am a laid off airline pilot as are many others who are on this forum. Honestly the pay and schedule suck for the first 5 ish years (especially if you want to go the airline route). I went from making 90k as a software engineer to making 20k for my first two years as a pilot.

You will likely have to move somewhere cold and remote where you don't want to be in order to build hours. There is not much job stability when a downturn hits and the flying itself becomes routine after a few years and isn't as much fun as flying for a hobby.

If you absolutely love it then you can make it work however if you have a family to support or any other financial/personal commitments it will be very hard. I changed careers into flying when I was 24 and single - no way would I have done that now with two kids, a stay at home wife and mortgage.

[AuxBatOn]

Thanks for the suggestion. Can you please provide an explanation on why so? Are you a pilot or a former pilot?

Best,

The industry is currently flooded with pilots, with companies folding and many pilots on furlough or having most their job outright. 6 months ago the answer would have been different but COVID changed the environment.

I understand the current situation, but how long it is going to last? It is not going to last forever. Maybe another year or two and then hiring is going to ramp up.

Who knows how long it’ll last. How long before people are confident in travelling again? Now that companies moves to virtual means of doing business, is there going to be as big a need for business travel, a large part of airlines’ bottom lines??

Bottom line: there is a lot of uncertainty in the industry and no one can answer your questions definitely.

[KiloDelta]

Don't do it. Stay in your job, get your PPL and fly for fun.

Thanks for the suggestion. Can you please provide an explanation on why so? Are you a pilot or a former pilot?

Best,

I am a laid off airline pilot as are many others who are on this forum. Honestly the pay and schedule suck for the first 5 ish years (especially if you want to go the airline route). I went from making 90k as a software engineer to making 20k for my first two years as a pilot.

You will likely have to move somewhere cold and remote where you don't want to be in order to build hours. There is not much job stability when a downturn hits and the flying itself becomes routine after a few years and isn't as much fun as flying for a hobby.

If you absolutely love it then you can make it work however if you have a family to support or any other financial/personal commitments it will be very hard. I changed careers into flying when I was 24 and single - no way would I have done that now with two kids, a stay at home wife and mortgage.

Thanks for the input. Just like you in he software industry, I am currently making 90k in the engineering industry. Married with 2 kids. What is your opinion about the Integrated ATPL program where airlines hire directly after writing IARTA. Was your 20k salary in the regionals or was it flying up in the north?

What are my chances if I get my CPL + a CRJ type rating on my own cost?

[AuxBatOn]

Paying for your own type rating is frowned upon in the industry. It won’t really give you an edge and set you back several thousands of dollars.

[Ash Ketchum]

Thanks for the suggestion. Can you please provide an explanation on why so? Are you a pilot or a former pilot?

Best,

I am a laid off airline pilot as are many others who are on this forum. Honestly the pay and schedule suck for the first 5 ish years (especially if you want to go the airline route). I went from making 90k as a software engineer to making 20k for my first two years as a pilot.

You will likely have to move somewhere cold and remote where you don't want to be in order to build hours. There is not much job stability when a downturn hits and the flying itself becomes routine after a few years and isn't as much fun as flying for a hobby.

If you absolutely love it then you can make it work however if you have a family to support or any other financial/personal commitments it will be very hard. I changed careers into flying when I was 24 and single - no way would I have done that now with two kids, a stay at home wife and mortgage.

Thanks for the input. Just like you in he software industry, I am currently making 90k in the engineering industry. Married with 2 kids. What is your opinion about the Integrated ATPL program where airlines hire directly after writing IARTA. Was your 20k salary in the regionals or was it flying up in the north?

What are my chances if I get my CPL + a CRJ type rating on my own cost?

As the others have said unfortunately there are no shortcuts in Canadian aviation. Maybe in Europe if you have the licence, EU citizenship and deep pockets. There was that ridiculously expensive Jazz Pathways program but I wouldn't be surprised if it gets axed due to Covid. My career route went (CPL -> aerial survey pilot until 1000 hours -> King air FO up north -> Regional FO -> Regional Captain) and now furlough. So I basically spent the first four years of my aviation career making <= 40K and then I finally got a decent salary as a regional captain and a year later Covid came and I was laid off. Its not an easy road with kids and a wife. Your wife would have to have a very portable and well paid job like a nurse or doctor and she would have to be willing to live in Northern Manitoba or someplace like that for 2-3 years to support you while you build your hours for the regionals.

[KiloDelta]

I am a laid off airline pilot as are many others who are on this forum. Honestly the pay and schedule suck for the first 5 ish years (especially if you want to go the airline route). I went from making 90k as a software engineer to making 20k for my first two years as a pilot.

You will likely have to move somewhere cold and remote where you don't want to be in order to build hours. There is not much job stability when a downturn hits and the flying itself becomes routine after a few years and isn't as much fun as flying for a hobby.

If you absolutely love it then you can make it work however if you have a family to support or any other financial/personal commitments it will be very hard. I changed careers into flying when I was 24 and single - no way would I have done that now with two kids, a stay at home wife and mortgage.

Thanks for the input. Just like you in he software industry, I am currently making 90k in the engineering industry. Married with 2 kids. What is your opinion about the Integrated ATPL program where airlines hire directly after writing IARTA. Was your 20k salary in the regionals or was it flying up in the north?

What are my chances if I get my CPL + a CRJ type rating on my own cost?

As the others have said unfortunately there are no shortcuts in Canadian aviation. Maybe in Europe if you have the licence, EU citizenship and deep pockets. There was that ridiculously expensive Jazz Pathways program but I wouldn't be surprised if it gets axed due to Covid. My career route went (CPL -> aerial survey pilot until 1000 hours -> King air FO up north -> Regional FO -> Regional Captain) and now furlough. So I basically spent the first four years of my aviation career making <= 40K and then I finally got a decent salary as a regional captain and a year later Covid came and I was laid off. Its not an easy road with kids and a wife. Your wife would have to have a very portable and well paid job like a nurse or doctor and she would have to be willing to live in Northern Manitoba or someplace like that for 2-3 years to support you while you build your hours for the regionals.

Thanks for sharing your story Ash Ketchum. It seems you put in a lot of hard work to get to the position of a FO in a King Air. That is a lot of hours. I think for me it may not be worth it at this time. My wife is a homemaker, comfortably looking after very young kids who are just beginning to goto school.

As a Regional FO, were you flying jets or turboprops?
When you lived up North, did you live in a town which had good facilities like for groceries (sobeyes, walmart, superstore), medical clinics, hospitals, schools?
Would you be able to be re-hired once the industry picks-up? Do you intend to go back into this profession?
Did you enjoy flying in the 4 years or did it become mundane and routine?

One last question. Some colleges offer the Integrated ATPL and then there is ATP in Florida, USA and Aerocadet.com all these offer internships upon graduation and guaranteed airline jobs. Are these worth it vs the traditional route PPL->CPL? They charge upwards of $80,000. ATP in Florida charges $120,000 which is same as aerocadet.com

Best,

[Ash Ketchum]

Thanks for the input. Just like you in he software industry, I am currently making 90k in the engineering industry. Married with 2 kids. What is your opinion about the Integrated ATPL program where airlines hire directly after writing IARTA. Was your 20k salary in the regionals or was it flying up in the north?

What are my chances if I get my CPL + a CRJ type rating on my own cost?

As the others have said unfortunately there are no shortcuts in Canadian aviation. Maybe in Europe if you have the licence, EU citizenship and deep pockets. There was that ridiculously expensive Jazz Pathways program but I wouldn't be surprised if it gets axed due to Covid. My career route went (CPL -> aerial survey pilot until 1000 hours -> King air FO up north -> Regional FO -> Regional Captain) and now furlough. So I basically spent the first four years of my aviation career making <= 40K and then I finally got a decent salary as a regional captain and a year later Covid came and I was laid off. Its not an easy road with kids and a wife. Your wife would have to have a very portable and well paid job like a nurse or doctor and she would have to be willing to live in Northern Manitoba or someplace like that for 2-3 years to support you while you build your hours for the regionals.

Thanks for sharing your story Ash Ketchum. It seems you put in a lot of hard work to get to the position of a FO in a King Air. That is a lot of hours. I think for me it may not be worth it at this time. My wife is a homemaker, comfortably looking after very young kids who are just beginning to goto school.

As a Regional FO, were you flying jets or turboprops?
When you lived up North, did you live in a town which had good facilities like for groceries (sobeyes, walmart, superstore), medical clinics, hospitals, schools?
Would you be able to be re-hired once the industry picks-up? Do you intend to go back into this profession?
Did you enjoy flying in the 4 years or did it become mundane and routine?

One last question. Some colleges offer the Integrated ATPL and then there is ATP in Florida, USA and Aerocadet.com all these offer internships upon graduation and guaranteed airline jobs. Are these worth it vs the traditional route PPL->CPL? They charge upwards of $80,000. ATP in Florida charges $120,000 which is same as aerocadet.com

Best,

I flew turboprops as a regional FO. The towns up North really vary, I was in Timmins so it wasn't too bad but some towns are definitely more rough. All furloughed airline pilots are generally still kept on the seniority list to be recalled once the situation improves. This holds true unless the company goes out of business. I may go back to flying if I get called back or I may return to software development or even pursue a top MBA program. As I mentioned the flying does get a little bit mundane after several years however in my opinion it is still more interesting than being in a cubicle. Some flying is more interesting than airlines for sure, but the airlines are where the long term money and stability is.

I wouldn't trust the US schools. You need to time build to 1500 hours to become a regional FO in the US and also need the right to work in the US. US airlines don't sponsor internationals for TN or H1B like in tech.

[challenger_nami]

.

[altiplano]

I started trying to find jobs when 9/11 hit and it was very difficult. At the time it was the worst thing to hit the industry. You were lucky to get any job - even on the ramp up north - and iit took 1000s of hours to get right seat in small turbine like a King Air or Metro, and 10,000 hours to get a job in a 705 machine.

Covid and the continuing shut down of this business is worse than 9/11, although the industry was stronger going in, there are some dark days and long waits ahead for anyone just getting started and wanting to go to an airline.

I think at your age and point in life, and the way the cycle is now, your ship has already sailed. I believe that best case scenario you might see the same pay cheque you are making today in 10 years in this industry and that's if you went all in, ground your way up, willing to go to the work, any work, low pay, long hours, poor family lifestyle.

But if you're serious and want to go for it, if you believe things will ramp right back up, then I would get your licenses done at a private flight school as quickly as you can, keep your day job, and get an instructor rating and build some hours and see what happens, if things start into full recovery by 2023 or so, you'll have a chance to catch an upswing.

Your questions...

1) I am quite athletic, lead an athletic life style, eat healthy, is the pilot lifestyle going to be difficult to maintain along with a healthy lifestyle?
It can be tough, especially when you're dog tired from the long days, but hotel gyms and running shoes in the bag help.

2) How is the pilot lifestyle, is it generally unhealthy - with lack of sleep and unhealthy airport and hotel food?
Some guys go crazy on the road with coolers and special foods and don't eat out, and airplane food is horrible for you and I avoid it, but I find lots of good options.

3) How hard will it be to get a job after getting CPL 250 hours, plus lets say I get my instructor rating?
Hard.

4) What would be the average cost of PPL, CPL, IFR, Multi-engine rating, Multi-IFR and Instructor rating?
Call your local flight school.

5) Is the IFR and Multi-engine rating included in the CPL?
No.

6) What is different about the Integrated ATPL vs Modular training. Do graduates of Integrated ATPL have higher chance of getting a job with Jazz or Porter through their pathway program?
Integrated courses will take longer even though you'll go more or less full time, if you have a degree and some experience you're just as competitive

7) What would be the best way to make hours after CPL without having to put my family through struggle (example moving north to remote locations)?
That's the million dollar question. You don't say where you are, or maybe I missed it, but it's going to be difficult to come up from zero post-covid. More so if you are looking yourself to where you live.

8 ) Is it better to train in Europe or some other country such as ATP in USA, is their any advantage?
I don't think so. If you want to work here, go get your licenses here. Maybe the flight school will give you a job.

[TalkingPie]

You could consider casually going into aviation if you can justify writing it off as an expensive hobby. That's what I did at 35; I'd like to do it professionally but don't know how feasible that is, so I started my PPL on the side of my regular job. Even if I stop after I finish that (which I almost have, at a ridiculous 100+ hours), nobody can take away the fact that I learned to fly a plane.

Things to consider are that the older we get, the harder we have to work to learn something new, and more importantly that it takes many more flight hours to become proficient at flying if you don't do it regularly. If possible I'd suggest trying to knock it out largely during vacation time or something, instead of dragging it out part time over nearly two years like I did.

After you finish the PPL you'll be in a better position to determine which way the wind is blowing with regards to a recovery in the industry, how much you like flying, and whether you want to make the leap to continue on and do your CPL, etc. I wrote off piloting as a career 9 years ago because the industry outlook wasn't good, and as a result I missed out on the unprecedented hiring over the past couple of years. Then I started training during the boom years to now be hit by Covid. Aviation is cyclical, and I think that getting started during a downturn isn't a bad thing - maybe even a good thing - as long as you have a backup plan.

If things go well, you can get your PPL done for about $15k or so, although I'd budget more like $20k at our age and if flying infrequently. I spent a good bit more than that, but am probably an outlier. Keep in mind that the prices that schools quote are usually assuming that you'll get your license with the 45 hour legal minimum, when the average amount of hours people take is more like 75.

As others have touched on already, if you want to go into it as a career be ready to spend close to your full savings on it (I'm budgeting about $80k), and after that you'll likely spend a couple of years at burger-flipping wages likely instructing in single-engine Cessnas, followed by a few more at lower-middle-class pay. The big payoff only comes later if you make it to the big airlines.

Before worrying about all that, though, I'd spend $200 on a fam flight for an instructor to take you up and see how you like it. From there you can decide to do the ground school online for another $200 or so. Spend the bigger money on flight time for your PPL once that has all gone well.

[Inverted2]

I would get your private licence for now and see how you like it and maybe buy a plane for fun flying. If you want to go the airline route it’s going to take a while and I don’t think airlines will go back to their former size for year and years if ever. There’s going to be many airlines go under in 2021 if the travel restrictions don’t get lifted soon.

[KiloDelta]

Paying for your own type rating is frowned upon in the industry. It won’t really give you an edge and set you back several thousands of dollars.

Why is that? In some countries candidates do get their type ratings before applying with airlines.

[KiloDelta]

Regionals usually prefer students graduated from Integrated Courses as they have agreements with their schools. But then you need to commit to the school for 2 years.

I anticipate the next pilot shortage to come around 2025...(NO GUARANTEES)

If you like to gamble:
. Buy a small aircraft and take lessons and get your PPL while still keeping your day job.
. Then casually build time and get your CPL while keeping your day job.
. Become an instructor part time while keeping your day job.
. Keeps logging hours casually while keeping your day job.

When all the laid off pilots get back to work, and then when the aviation industry gets back to its 2015 capacity, then get your MULTI IFR and apply for regionals or whatever you wish to do from there.

At 35, I left my stable and comfortable life, and I did a version of what I just wrote above, and I am glad I did it.

It was a very tough road, but now I have lots of moments in the rear view mirror to be proud for.

BUT AGAIN: IT IS ALL A GAMBLE.

This sounds like a good idea, but how much would a new airplane (Cessna I assume cost?) plus keeping it at the airport, plus mainenance?
What is your current job, what aircraft do you fly now and how are you doing overall financially and in terms of happiness in general? If you don't mind sharing.

Thanks,

[KiloDelta]

You could consider casually going into aviation if you can justify writing it off as an expensive hobby. That's what I did at 35; I'd like to do it professionally but don't know how feasible that is, so I started my PPL on the side of my regular job. Even if I stop after I finish that (which I almost have, at a ridiculous 100+ hours), nobody can take away the fact that I learned to fly a plane.

Things to consider are that the older we get, the harder we have to work to learn something new, and more importantly that it takes many more flight hours to become proficient at flying if you don't do it regularly. If possible I'd suggest trying to knock it out largely during vacation time or something, instead of dragging it out part time over nearly two years like I did.

After you finish the PPL you'll be in a better position to determine which way the wind is blowing with regards to a recovery in the industry, how much you like flying, and whether you want to make the leap to continue on and do your CPL, etc. I wrote off piloting as a career 9 years ago because the industry outlook wasn't good, and as a result I missed out on the unprecedented hiring over the past couple of years. Then I started training during the boom years to now be hit by Covid. Aviation is cyclical, and I think that getting started during a downturn isn't a bad thing - maybe even a good thing - as long as you have a backup plan.

If things go well, you can get your PPL done for about $15k or so, although I'd budget more like $20k at our age and if flying infrequently. I spent a good bit more than that, but am probably an outlier. Keep in mind that the prices that schools quote are usually assuming that you'll get your license with the 45 hour legal minimum, when the average amount of hours people take is more like 75.

As others have touched on already, if you want to go into it as a career be ready to spend close to your full savings on it (I'm budgeting about $80k), and after that you'll likely spend a couple of years at burger-flipping wages likely instructing in single-engine Cessnas, followed by a few more at lower-middle-class pay. The big payoff only comes later if you make it to the big airlines.

Before worrying about all that, though, I'd spend $200 on a fam flight for an instructor to take you up and see how you like it. From there you can decide to do the ground school online for another $200 or so. Spend the bigger money on flight time for your PPL once that has all gone well.

Thanks for the suggestion. 20k for a PPL seems awful lot, when my local flying club is quoting $9000. I do like aviation. I have been flying on VA Flight simulator over the years learnt all ATC terminology, reading airport charts (SIDS / STARS), a bit of IFR (VORs, VOR appoaches, DME arcs, ILS, RNAV) etc.. etc. I do enjoy this.

[photofly]

Thanks for the suggestion. 20k for a PPL seems awful lot, when my local flying club is quoting $9000.

They’re not quoting: a quotation is a guarantee of a fixed price, and nobody can offer you that.

They’re giving you the bare minimum price for the minimum hours in their cheapest aircraft with their cheapest instructor. The minimum training time required in law is 45 hours flight time. The national average is 72. That’s not even their average training time.

$20k is a sensible budget, and if you can manage it in $15k you can consider yourself ahead.

Flight simulators will slow your training considerably; your instructor will have to spend hours unteaching you all the wrong things you’ve managed to teach yourself in front of a computer instead of in an airplane. Meanwhile you will be resisting taking on board what your instructor is trying to teach you because it doesn’t match what you’ve (wrongly) taught yourself.

[KiloDelta]

Thanks for the suggestion. 20k for a PPL seems awful lot, when my local flying club is quoting $9000.

They’re not quoting: a quotation is a guarantee of a fixed price, and nobody can offer you that.

They’re giving you the bare minimum price for the minimum hours in their cheapest aircraft with their cheapest instructor. The minimum training time required in law is 45 hours flight time. The national average is 72. That’s not even their average training time.

$20k is a sensible budget, and if you can manage it in $15k you can consider yourself ahead.

Flight simulators will slow your training considerably; your instructor will have to spend hours unteaching you all the wrong things you’ve managed to teach yourself in front of a computer instead of in an airplane. Meanwhile you will be resisting taking on board what your instructor is trying to teach you because it doesn’t match what you’ve (wrongly) taught yourself.

Average cost of CPL+IFR+MIER+MIFR?

Do you think it is a good idea to take a line of credit from RBC, when do they start asking for money back?

[photofly]

A line of credit you can keep forever, you never have to pay it back. But the loan grows, unless you at least pay off the interest as it accrues. The interest rate will depend on what you secure the LoC - typically your house.

[KiloDelta]

Please have a look at this aerocadet.com, they train in Oshawa, ON. Then they have a period of internship both national and international to make you gain experience and ultimately land an airline job. The cost USD$60,000 and they claim that they are always full and have to reject applications. What is your opinion?