New Bottom Feeder's

[flyingcanuck]

I think it is high time we stopped blaming our fellow pilots as bottom feeders and put the blame where it really is due - corporate greed. You must realize that this race to the bottom didn't happen overnight or because one pilot was desperate to get a job. This is a systematic destruction happening that has been going on for many years. A simple example would point at WestJet who made the Encore brand to undercut their WJPA and Swoop to thwart upstart ULCCs.

Bickering between us is exactly what these greedy investment bankers want so that we never realize who is truly to blame - them! How else can you explain the rising pay of CEOs while pilot pay has been steadily on the decline for decades now?

Yes but out of the two, who can we actually influence to make change? Our "CEOs" or fellow pilots. Sure it's the uppers fault but it's also our own for letting it get there. Personally though I wouldn't go as far as calling them bottom feeders, we have no idea that person's situation. May have 3 kids to feed etc.

[Loon-A-Tic]

As the initiator of this post I'll accept that "Bottom Feeder" may have been a bit confrontational but it got everyone talking. Equally no one of us knows the other person's situation, however we are all in this together. While its easy to point a finger at others or management but we also need to take responsibility for our actions and the affect they may be having on friends and colleagues.

[PeterParker]

Yes but out of the two, who can we actually influence to make change? Our "CEOs" or fellow pilots. Sure it's the uppers fault but it's also our own for letting it get there. Personally though I wouldn't go as far as calling them bottom feeders, we have no idea that person's situation. May have 3 kids to feed etc.

Honestly speaking it would be easier to influence the CEOs by unionizing and using strong representatives talking for the rest. Every time someone talks against unions, they must be reminded that we were better off when we had unions than we are now.

Read somewhere on the internet and it best summarizes the whole thing. Unions are like condoms; when someone says you don’t need them that’s the sure sign that you absolutely do!

[planebored]

Yes but out of the two, who can we actually influence to make change? Our "CEOs" or fellow pilots. Sure it's the uppers fault but it's also our own for letting it get there. Personally though I wouldn't go as far as calling them bottom feeders, we have no idea that person's situation. May have 3 kids to feed etc.

Honestly speaking it would be easier to influence the CEOs by unionizing and using strong representatives talking for the rest. Every time someone talks against unions, they must be reminded that we were better off when we had unions than we are now.

Read somewhere on the internet and it best summarizes the whole thing. Unions are like condoms; when someone says you don’t need them that’s the sure sign that you absolutely do!

CR is apparently very against AC pilots moving to ALPA. What more reason do you need to do it then?

[tbaylx]

Yes but out of the two, who can we actually influence to make change? Our "CEOs" or fellow pilots. Sure it's the uppers fault but it's also our own for letting it get there. Personally though I wouldn't go as far as calling them bottom feeders, we have no idea that person's situation. May have 3 kids to feed etc.

Honestly speaking it would be easier to influence the CEOs by unionizing and using strong representatives talking for the rest. Every time someone talks against unions, they must be reminded that we were better off when we had unions than we are now.

Read somewhere on the internet and it best summarizes the whole thing. Unions are like condoms; when someone says you don’t need them that’s the sure sign that you absolutely do!

CR is apparently very against AC pilots moving to ALPA. What more reason do you need to do it then?

I am quite certain CR couldn't care less what union the pilots are with. He has bigger issues and the company doesn't revolve around pilots as much as we think it should

[planebored]

Don't be so sure.

[rooster]

You know, you guys are funny. You talk about unity and doing the right thing while your fellow colleagues are furloughed and watching each other's backs etc.... yet you are incredibly divided on this forum and many of you are so quick to insult, rip apart and criticize others for their opinions that aren't matching yours.

Tell you what. Why don't all the senior pilots making bank freakin retire. That would open up what, 500-1000 positions at AC alone? What about WJ, Sunwing, TS, Flair, Canadian North etc? You had your turn, now step aside and let the young guys who are furloughed have their moment. I don't see much of that happening, yet you guys want to crucify guys for picking up OT. LOL!

No, pilots will never be unified. You're all out for yourselves and you're just too blind to see it.

[planebored]

You know, you guys are funny. You talk about unity and doing the right thing while your fellow colleagues are furloughed and watching each other's backs etc.... yet you are incredibly divided on this forum and many of you are so quick to insult, rip apart and criticize others for their opinions that aren't matching yours.

Tell you what. Why don't all the senior pilots making bank freakin retire. That would open up what, 500-1000 positions at AC alone? What about WJ, Sunwing, TS, Flair, Canadian North etc? You had your turn, now step aside and let the young guys who are furloughed have their moment. I don't see much of that happening, yet you guys want to crucify guys for picking up OT. LOL!

No, pilots will never be unified. You're all out for yourselves and you're just too blind to see it.

Agreed.

[AirDoan]

When most, if not all in the aviation sector, are both future and financially fuct, you’re the one who decides who’s a “bottom feeder”???
Shouldn’t we, individually, in our own specific circumstances, decide what’s best for us and our families?
Maybe more considerate thought is a wiser investment than just hitting the keyboard.

Gino Under

P.S. it’s ‘affecting’ not “effecting”.

Well regardless I think we can all agree SkyCare is the bottommost bottom feeder.

Why is SkyCare considered the bottom? I just started with them. New FO jobs are very far and few, and I had a decent amount of hours from pipelines and jumpers so I was direct into the FO position without ground time. Most of the people seem pretty straight forward and I was able to elect which base I preferred. Okay yeah the training bond is not ideal, but where else am I going for the next 1 to 2 years with no multi IFR time? PM if you want to chat offline, I’d like to hear your insights.

[planebored]

When most, if not all in the aviation sector, are both future and financially fuct, you’re the one who decides who’s a “bottom feeder”???
Shouldn’t we, individually, in our own specific circumstances, decide what’s best for us and our families?
Maybe more considerate thought is a wiser investment than just hitting the keyboard.

Gino Under

P.S. it’s ‘affecting’ not “effecting”.

Well regardless I think we can all agree SkyCare is the bottommost bottom feeder.

Why is SkyCare considered the bottom? I just started with them. New FO jobs are very far and few, and I had a decent amount of hours from pipelines and jumpers so I was direct into the FO position without ground time. Most of the people seem pretty straight forward and I was able to elect which base I preferred. Okay yeah the training bond is not ideal, but where else am I going for the next 1 to 2 years with no multi IFR time? PM if you want to chat offline, I’d like to hear your insights.

Give it time. You'll understand.

[trey kule]

Rooster wrote:

Tell you what. Why don't all the senior pilots making bank freakin retire. That would open up what, 500-1000 positions at AC alone? What about WJ, Sunwing, TS, Flair, Canadian North etc? You had your turn, now step aside and let the young guys who are furloughed have their moment. I don't see much of that happening, yet you guys want to crucify guys for picking up OT. LOL!

Tell you what. It is not old guys crucifying anyone. It is the entitled little snots that want their “fair” share
The “senior pilots” went through layoffs. More than once for many. Yet you feel so entitled that they should just step out of the way so you can move up the seniority list.
Putin your time and rise up the list by working hard. Not suggesting other people move out of your way.

[DirtyDashDriver]

+1

I've flown with enough guys near the top of the list who are not in a position to retire because they have the likes of Royal, Greyhound, and Canada 3000 on their resume. Lots of guys zigged when they should have zagged. Don't assume that just because they're making over $200k that they're well off and debt free. A little empathy in both directions goes a long way.

[PeterParker]

I think it is high time we stopped blaming our fellow pilots as bottom feeders and put the blame where it really is due - corporate greed. You must realize that this race to the bottom didn't happen overnight or because one pilot was desperate to get a job. This is a systematic destruction happening that has been going on for many years. A simple example would point at WestJet who made the Encore brand to undercut their WJPA and Swoop to thwart upstart ULCCs.

Bickering between us is exactly what these greedy investment bankers want so that we never realize who is truly to blame - them! How else can you explain the rising pay of CEOs while pilot pay has been steadily on the decline for decades now?

Putting it here again in case some of the later posters didn’t read this part. Bolded for effect.

[mixturerich]

For the guys who are retiring early, presumably because they can afford so, total bro move to let the new guys take the spot. That being said, I wouldn’t hold it against anyone who doesn’t. The older guys especially worked very hard over the decades, are absolutely entitled to the job they have, and don’t owe anything to anyone else.

[Skyhunter]

Dude, you have no idea if other people’s financial circumstances. Maybe the are paying for a very sick parents old folks home bills. Maybe their spouse has a business that is losing thousands of dollars a month. Perhaps their kids need an expensive medication that isn’t covered.

All of which we be more important than not working in the slim hopes it will help someone else.



Pretty f**** judgmental.

What about the financial circumstances of all the furloughed pilots? Especially those who left higher paid jobs to deal with flat pay shit, only to get laid off and now take even longer to get to formula pay?

Just don't do VO. If you care at all about your fellow co-workers. If the company can't cover with VO they will start to recall and run larger reserve coverage. Every day sooner the get our furloughed brothers and sisters back is better. That's one more day of YOS progression, another day of pension contribution and benefits coverage.

Say no to VO.

Dude, I am feel bad for everyone laid off. I do, but honestly I have 12 years to retirement. I am way more worried about my pension and getting my financial house in order. I served my time in the military putting country first. Sorry to say it is now about me first.

My wife’s business lost 5k month for several months and even now is she can’t pay herself. We have 20 horses to feed this winter and rent to pay on the riding facility where the business is.
I have not flow in over 6 months, but if when I start up again and I get the chance for draft I will be taking it, and I will not be feeling guilty about.

[planebored]

That's really too bad you have 12 years to go for your pension. Perhaps you should understand that every day we're laid off will have the same if not worse long lasting damage to the CWIPP earnings. Since we need to make more money earlier with this silly target benefit plan.

As for you financial obligations, again I feel for the situation you're in. But there are just as many other people who are laid off who all have bills, mortgages, school fees etc. to pay for as well. And the more you take draft, the longer it will be before people are recalled.

[Skyhunter]

I am CWIPP as well and probably a lot less time at AC to build a pension than you will have.

[rooster]

Rooster wrote:

Tell you what. Why don't all the senior pilots making bank freakin retire. That would open up what, 500-1000 positions at AC alone? What about WJ, Sunwing, TS, Flair, Canadian North etc? You had your turn, now step aside and let the young guys who are furloughed have their moment. I don't see much of that happening, yet you guys want to crucify guys for picking up OT. LOL!

Tell you what. It is not old guys crucifying anyone. It is the entitled little snots that want their “fair” share
The “senior pilots” went through layoffs. More than once for many. Yet you feel so entitled that they should just step out of the way so you can move up the seniority list.
Putin your time and rise up the list by working hard. Not suggesting other people move out of your way.

I never said it was the old guys crucifying anyone. I was making the point that pilots scream at each other for unity, yet there is so much divisiveness. Everyone crucifies everyone for something. Further, if you're going to crucify a guy for picking up OT while others are laid off, why not crucify the senior guys (especially those 60+ who pushed for retirement at 65), for not taking hanging it up and open up spots for junior guys who are out of work. Fact check for you, not all the 'junior' guys are young adults. Many are older, some even 50+. Whether it's right or wrong, why are we shitting on guys for picking up OT when there are other ways to help furloughed pilots.

Geeze you senior guys always think people who call you out are entitled young thundercats. Yeah, some are, but I find it funny you call them entitled little snots while you sit pretty on your perches getting to keep most of what you want enjoying your comfy salaries and your upcoming pensions. Trey ignorant if you ask me. Telling people to work hard and put in their time during a pandemic when job losses are out of their control is a slap in the damn face. Smarten up.

[trey kule]

Well rooster.
I am retired. But during my career I worked for an airline that closed the doors and left us literally standing on the street....and pension funds gone. Furloughed a couple other times as well.
But I never expected anyone higher than me on the seniority scale to step aside, take a reduced pension, quit doing what they love, and less money for afew years,just so I could have a job.

It is the epitome of arrogance and entitlement, in my opinion, to ask, or in some cases, demand, they should make that sacrifice so you, and others like you, can climb the ladder.

If you started later in life, it does not mean that they should step aside because of your decision. History will repeat itself, and I wonder at 60 if you will “step aside”.

It is tragic what is happening to the industry right now, and to all those furloughed. But it does not entitle them to expect others should step aside. Those senior pilots have paid their dues, and many still like what they are doing for a living.


I will however, in deference to your point in labelling them entitled little snots, to just label them as arrogant and entitled.

[mbav8r]

Well rooster.
I am retired. But during my career I worked for an airline that closed the doors and left us literally standing on the street....and pension funds gone. Furloughed a couple other times as well.
But I never expected anyone higher than me on the seniority scale to step aside, take a reduced pension, quit doing what they love, and less money for afew years,just so I could have a job.

It is the epitome of arrogance and entitlement, in my opinion, to ask, or in some cases, demand, they should make that sacrifice so you, and others like you, can climb the ladder.

If you started later in life, it does not mean that they should step aside because of your decision. History will repeat itself, and I wonder at 60 if you will “step aside”.

It is tragic what is happening to the industry right now, and to all those furloughed. But it does not entitle them to expect others should step aside. Those senior pilots have paid their dues, and many still like what they are doing for a living.


I will however, in deference to your point in labelling them entitled little snots, to just label them as arrogant and entitled.

Thanks for that, it’s truly unbelievable the selfishness of some. All the pilots left at AC have taken a 40% pay cut(55 hrs) so more can stay but that wasn’t enough for some. If I took a 40% cut in pay, I would definitely be doing overtime to cover the shortfall in my lifestyle.
By lifestyle, I’m talking bills, after the last furlough for me, it took 8 years to get back to the salary I was making prior, which had me dipping into my retirement savings and if things don’t improve by March next year, I could be doing it again with the inevitable downgrade(40%) paycut. If that happens, it’s almost a certainty I will not be retiring until 65 or later!
Don’t worry though, if the liberals have their way, they will have a bunch of green jobs for all of us, you won’t need to worry about moving up the ladder.

[dialdriver]

Well rooster.
I am retired. But during my career I worked for an airline that closed the doors and left us literally standing on the street....and pension funds gone. Furloughed a couple other times as well.
But I never expected anyone higher than me on the seniority scale to step aside, take a reduced pension, quit doing what they love, and less money for afew years,just so I could have a job.

It is the epitome of arrogance and entitlement, in my opinion, to ask, or in some cases, demand, they should make that sacrifice so you, and others like you, can climb the ladder.

If you started later in life, it does not mean that they should step aside because of your decision. History will repeat itself, and I wonder at 60 if you will “step aside”.

It is tragic what is happening to the industry right now, and to all those furloughed. But it does not entitle them to expect others should step aside. Those senior pilots have paid their dues, and many still like what they are doing for a living.


I will however, in deference to your point in labelling them entitled little snots, to just label them as arrogant and entitled.

Thanks for that, it’s truly unbelievable the selfishness of some. All the pilots left at AC have taken a 40% pay cut(55 hrs) so more can stay but that wasn’t enough for some. If I took a 40% cut in pay, I would definitely be doing overtime to cover the shortfall in my lifestyle.
By lifestyle, I’m talking bills, after the last furlough for me, it took 8 years to get back to the salary I was making prior, which had me dipping into my retirement savings and if things don’t improve by March next year, I could be doing it again with the inevitable downgrade(40%) paycut. If that happens, it’s almost a certainty I will not be retiring until 65 or later!
Don’t worry though, if the liberals have their way, they will have a bunch of green jobs for all of us, you won’t need to worry about moving up the ladder.

Due to various economic and medical reasons over my career, I expect to retire at age 65 with about $60k/yr pension. I may continue past 65 to top that up a bit. But, if I retired now to give my job to a younger pilot, I would live in near poverty for the rest of my life.

I can recall regional pilots on welfare when I was trying to find my first job.

You'll have to struggle through this like the rest of us did in our time.

[Taxivasion]

When most, if not all in the aviation sector, are both future and financially fuct, you’re the one who decides who’s a “bottom feeder”???
Shouldn’t we, individually, in our own specific circumstances, decide what’s best for us and our families?
Maybe more considerate thought is a wiser investment than just hitting the keyboard.

Gino Under

P.S. it’s ‘affecting’ not “effecting”.

Well regardless I think we can all agree SkyCare is the bottommost bottom feeder.

Why is SkyCare considered the bottom? I just started with them. New FO jobs are very far and few, and I had a decent amount of hours from pipelines and jumpers so I was direct into the FO position without ground time. Most of the people seem pretty straight forward and I was able to elect which base I preferred. Okay yeah the training bond is not ideal, but where else am I going for the next 1 to 2 years with no multi IFR time? PM if you want to chat offline, I’d like to hear your insights.

You're an idiot "Planebored"- Trash a company that's giving young pilots an opportunity and livelihood during the worst economic impact to the aviation sector in modern times. You were probably some boo-hoo, lazy prick that no one liked on the flightline and blamed all your problems on "management". Sometimes you just have to suck it up and work hard and do some hard flying. Nothing unsafe, but challenge yourself. Learn. Grow.

Blatantly trashing a company with no context is the lowest of the low. Grow up.

I know this company well and have no affiliation with them but this type of trash talking drives me nuts.

[planebored]

Well regardless I think we can all agree SkyCare is the bottommost bottom feeder.

Why is SkyCare considered the bottom? I just started with them. New FO jobs are very far and few, and I had a decent amount of hours from pipelines and jumpers so I was direct into the FO position without ground time. Most of the people seem pretty straight forward and I was able to elect which base I preferred. Okay yeah the training bond is not ideal, but where else am I going for the next 1 to 2 years with no multi IFR time? PM if you want to chat offline, I’d like to hear your insights.

You're an idiot "Planebored"- Trash a company that's giving young pilots an opportunity and livelihood during the worst economic impact to the aviation sector in modern times. You were probably some boo-hoo, lazy prick that no one liked on the flightline and blamed all your problems on "management". Sometimes you just have to suck it up and work hard and do some hard flying. Nothing unsafe, but challenge yourself. Learn. Grow.

Blatantly trashing a company with no context is the lowest of the low. Grow up.

I know this company well and have no affiliation with them but this type of trash talking drives me nuts.

Ok. Here's a few.

1) They have ridiculous bonds for Navajos and FO Metros (and if you move between planes)
2) Mx has been known to pencil whip pretty much everything and anything and their safety record shows. Some of the horror stories I heard about things there would blow your mind.
3) The owner is a dickbag who makes people do housework for him and has favorites, and pilots do it because they are too scared to say no. If you ever do anything remotely wrong you'll end up on the shit list and your ramp wait could go from 6 months to 2 years. Guys then just keep sticking around because they don't want to waste the years they worked on the ramp for nothing
4) They push their pilots to run in SKETCH weather, and with absolute minimum fuel and max loads
5) They string people along in dispatch positions while hiring OTS because they are "too good at dispatch and it would take too long to train someone new"


Should I keep going?

Skycare is a predatory company and sure they "give people their shot" but that's a pretty fucking low bar to hold them to.

[rooster]

Well rooster.
I am retired. But during my career I worked for an airline that closed the doors and left us literally standing on the street....and pension funds gone. Furloughed a couple other times as well.
But I never expected anyone higher than me on the seniority scale to step aside, take a reduced pension, quit doing what they love, and less money for afew years,just so I could have a job.

It is the epitome of arrogance and entitlement, in my opinion, to ask, or in some cases, demand, they should make that sacrifice so you, and others like you, can climb the ladder.

If you started later in life, it does not mean that they should step aside because of your decision. History will repeat itself, and I wonder at 60 if you will “step aside”.

It is tragic what is happening to the industry right now, and to all those furloughed. But it does not entitle them to expect others should step aside. Those senior pilots have paid their dues, and many still like what they are doing for a living.


I will however, in deference to your point in labelling them entitled little snots, to just label them as arrogant and entitled.

It's also asinine to criticize anyone for taking OT, yet here we are. Look just because you didn't have certain expectations of what others did or didn't do for you, it doesn't mean everyone else has to follow suit. If OT becomes available to a pilot, and he or she opts to take it, that's their choice. It is not for anyone to pass judgement. That is the basis of my point. Again, there are other ways to help our fellow furloughed pilots. And you elder fella's really need to stop assuming young guys are generally entitled snowflakes. And stop with the "well we had to endure it, and so should you" mentality. You seniors want respect? Try giving it.

The verbal battle aside, enjoy retirement. Might not be a bad time to sit on the sidelines and watch this unfold rather than live it, career wise (again in some peoples cases).

[dialdriver]

Why is SkyCare considered the bottom? I just started with them. New FO jobs are very far and few, and I had a decent amount of hours from pipelines and jumpers so I was direct into the FO position without ground time. Most of the people seem pretty straight forward and I was able to elect which base I preferred. Okay yeah the training bond is not ideal, but where else am I going for the next 1 to 2 years with no multi IFR time? PM if you want to chat offline, I’d like to hear your insights.

You're an idiot "Planebored"- Trash a company that's giving young pilots an opportunity and livelihood during the worst economic impact to the aviation sector in modern times. You were probably some boo-hoo, lazy prick that no one liked on the flightline and blamed all your problems on "management". Sometimes you just have to suck it up and work hard and do some hard flying. Nothing unsafe, but challenge yourself. Learn. Grow.

Blatantly trashing a company with no context is the lowest of the low. Grow up.

I know this company well and have no affiliation with them but this type of trash talking drives me nuts.

Ok. Here's a few.

1) They have ridiculous bonds for Navajos and FO Metros (and if you move between planes)
2) Mx has been known to pencil whip pretty much everything and anything and their safety record shows. Some of the horror stories I heard about things there would blow your mind.
3) The owner is a dickbag who makes people do housework for him and has favorites, and pilots do it because they are too scared to say no. If you ever do anything remotely wrong you'll end up on the shit list and your ramp wait could go from 6 months to 2 years. Guys then just keep sticking around because they don't want to waste the years they worked on the ramp for nothing
4) They push their pilots to run in SKETCH weather, and with absolute minimum fuel and max loads
5) They string people along in dispatch positions while hiring OTS because they are "too good at dispatch and it would take too long to train someone new"


Should I keep going?

Skycare is a predatory company and sure they "give people their shot" but that's a pretty fucking low bar to hold them to.

You might soon get an opportunity to prove your statements in court, at your defamation hearing.