WJ calls in the Swat Team on Maskless Toddler

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montado
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Re: WJ calls in the Swat Team on Maskless Toddler

Post by montado »

Well rockie that's exactly the problem with cloth masks. They aren't effective. Governments have told us to wear them to protect us. It's a feel good feel safe policy to get people back to work. So there are people who don't really worry much about covid and people who are afraid of the virus. No matter your take on the virus itself don't you think the fact governments are misleading people to believe cloth masks will protect them from a virus that could kill people is wrong?

I happen to be on the side of not being to worried because statistically I'm low risk.

However the high risk people are being lied to. They are being told its safe because people are wearing cloth masks, when really this is not true. How many people will die from covid wearing the mask and only being around people who wear the mask. The government sent them back to work saying this would be safe but its not. No evidence supports that its safer than wearing no mask at all.

Pre covid there were studies on surgeons wearing masks and evidence supported that they had very little of any effect. There were discussions about removing them from the required PPE... However the public image of a surgeon is someone wearing a mask... Take that mask away and all of a sudden people's feelings go off the rails.

If covid is not as bad as we thought we are wearing masks for nothing.

If covid is a deadly disease that warrants emergency orders, the citizens have been lied to being told any mask will protect you. You have basically been told to go back to work in an unsafe world with a false sense of protection. And people like rockie encourage pushing this lie to the world. Crazy that anyone would fall for such BS from our politicians.

Let's sit back and watch those Ontario numbers rise while we all wear masks. Why are they rising? Why is this policy that protects us not effective? Hmmm...
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Rockie
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Re: WJ calls in the Swat Team on Maskless Toddler

Post by Rockie »

montado wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:34 am Well rockie that's exactly the problem with cloth masks. They aren't effective.
Says no medical people. Tell you what, next time you have an operation you can tell the OR staff not to bother with masks. Maybe they'll take the time to explain the childishly obvious to you.
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montado
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Re: WJ calls in the Swat Team on Maskless Toddler

Post by montado »

"Among outpatient health care personnel, N95 respirators vs medical
masks as worn by participants in this trial resulted in no significant difference in the incidence of
laboratory-confirmed influenza."

I have some reading for you rockie.

Admittedly some studies are flawed including all the ones supporting wearing a mask. What's important to note there are many studies that don't have a "no mask" control group. So like how can you tell if masks work or not without a "no mask" control group.

Some studies are as pathetic as saying "look at Asia, they wear masks, masks work!"

So I would argue with you most medical professionals know masks have very little effectiveness.
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Effects of wearing N95 and surgical facemasks on heart rate, thermal stress and subjective sensation.pdf
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N95 Respirators vs Medical Masks for Preventing Influenza Among Health Care Personnel_ A Randomized .pdf
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Ruddervator
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Re: WJ calls in the Swat Team on Maskless Toddler

Post by Ruddervator »

montado wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:22 am
I think the reality is no studies conclusively say masks are, or are not effective...
Let me help you with that. https://bfy.tw/P6Yp

EDIT:
montado wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:00 am "Among outpatient health care personnel, N95 respirators vs medical
masks as worn by participants in this trial resulted in no significant difference in the incidence of
laboratory-confirmed influenza."
I must have missed when COVID-19 was classified as an influenza.
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montado
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Re: WJ calls in the Swat Team on Maskless Toddler

Post by montado »

Why don't you pick a study out. Kind of hard to debate when you point me to google. Are you referring to the CNN article the comes up? Like pick out your favourite and most definitive study and then let's talk about it. Please don't reference some trash news source.

Influenza isn't covid, so I'm curious what study you will reference. Is covid spread by aerosol? Is it only in big droplets caught in cloth masks. I'm curious how you have a study directly linked to covid itself. Let's see it. Did they actually have any trials in practical settings? Or are you just going to show me something stupid like you can't blow out a candle through a cloth mask so obviously masks work....?

Edit. So some ask why are the experts on all the same page. Well first off not every expert is conducting their own independent research and it would be career suicide to go against the grain. People just want the solution. Masks "work" for now is the attitude so if you don't have something better than just sit down and shut up right?

Wait, there are some experts. Anders Tegnell thinks differently. So you would be wrong to assume all the experts think the same. I'm sure many experts here share the view that masks are not effective but its hard to speak up when public opinion puts you on the stand. It's not about who is actually right it's about gut feeling and the guy feeling of many is that masks make us safe.
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Last edited by montado on Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ruddervator
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Re: WJ calls in the Swat Team on Maskless Toddler

Post by Ruddervator »

Sure, very first study in that list: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7191274/
Methods
A systematic review of randomized respiratory protection by healthcare controlled clinical trials on use of workers, sick patients and community members was conducted. Articles were searched on Medline and Embase using key search terms.

I'm not going to read each and every one of these studies aloud to you just to refute your straw man argument that there are no studies with sufficient scientific rigour. The evidence is plentiful, but if you want to keep your head in the sand, then so be it.
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montado
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Re: WJ calls in the Swat Team on Maskless Toddler

Post by montado »

Ok so someone told me my study was no good because it's about influenza, yet here we go this study is about influenza....

"A Japanese study had only 32 subjects, and likely was underpowered to find any difference between masks and control (Jacobs et al., 2009). Two North American trials of masks and respirators against influenza infection found no difference between the arms,
but neither had a control arm to differentiate equal efficacy from equal inefficacy (Radonovich et al., 2019, Loeb et al., 2009). Neither trial can prove equivalence, as this requires one intervention to be already proven efficaceous against placebo. Without a control group to determine rates of influenza in unprotected healthcare workers, neither study is able to determine efficacy if no difference was observed between the two interventions. A serologic study showed that up to 23% of unprotected healthcare workers (a rate identical to that observed in Loeb the trial, which also used serology) contract influenza during outbreaks (Elder et al., 1996), which suggests lack of efficacy. Studies of nosocomial influenza generally find lower influenza attack rates in unprotected healthcare workers than observed in the Loeb trial

Are we finding what you were looking for? Basically this study starts off explaining how it discredited many of the methods. And nothing is specific about covid yet. Let me keep reading.
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Last edited by montado on Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
montado
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Re: WJ calls in the Swat Team on Maskless Toddler

Post by montado »

Dude I'm really confused, were you sending me a pro mask study? I mean everything I read here is talking about how a mask is a waste of fucking time.

In summary, the evidence is consistent that a respirator must be worn throughout the shift to be protective. Targeted use of respirators only when doing high risk procedures and medical mask use is not protective. Another randomised controlled trial we conducted in China showed efficacy for continual use of a respirator, but not for a mask, and also found fit-testing of the respirator did not affect efficacy

If you could please direct me to your next research paper... I still don't see where anything says masks are good... Oh right... Just google it right? That's your research, CNN says cdc says masks are better than vaccines... Right!

And apparently my head is in the sand. :lol:

I was reading stuff that said the new prevailing theory is that it's spread in a range of both aerosol and droplets. So masks when close to people, being outside and we'll ventilated and filtered air when inside all help reduce virus load, but say a mask inside a poorly ventilated room isn't going to save you from the airborne component. So this makes sense that maybe a mask reduces viral load. Obviously if someone coughs or sneezes in your direction and they have a mask it’s collecting some viral load. But when was the last time that happened to you? So really this along with the studies I read doesn't really justify mask wearing. Wear a mask if you want to cough or sneeze at people.
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Rockie
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Re: WJ calls in the Swat Team on Maskless Toddler

Post by Rockie »

People like you are why there are rules. If you dislike them...tough shit.

Can you imagine spending hours futilely explaining to someone as obtuse as you why you should put on your mask at the door of an airplane? Can't be done, so put it on or you don't get on.
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mbav8r
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Re: WJ calls in the Swat Team on Maskless Toddler

Post by mbav8r »

montado wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:52 am Dude I'm really confused, were you sending me a pro mask study? I mean everything I read here is talking about how a mask is a waste of fucking time.

In summary, the evidence is consistent that a respirator must be worn throughout the shift to be protective. Targeted use of respirators only when doing high risk procedures and medical mask use is not protective. Another randomised controlled trial we conducted in China showed efficacy for continual use of a respirator, but not for a mask, and also found fit-testing of the respirator did not affect efficacy

If you could please direct me to your next research paper... I still don't see where anything says masks are good... Oh right... Just google it right? That's your research, CNN says cdc says masks are better than vaccines... Right!

And apparently my head is in the sand. :lol:

I was reading stuff that said the new prevailing theory is that it's spread in a range of both aerosol and droplets. So masks when close to people, being outside and we'll ventilated and filtered air when inside all help reduce virus load, but say a mask inside a poorly ventilated room isn't going to save you from the airborne component. So this makes sense that maybe a mask reduces viral load. Obviously if someone coughs or sneezes in your direction and they have a mask it’s collecting some viral load. But when was the last time that happened to you? So really this along with the studies I read doesn't really justify mask wearing. Wear a mask if you want to cough or sneeze at people.
Honest to god, I don’t understand how someone who appears to have some intelligence can’t grasp the fact that the mask, as part of the overall strategy combined is what needs to happen so we can move towards normal.
Here’s a true story from my own personal experience, I was at a store, there was a woman who was NOT wearing a mask grabbing a big ass package of toilet paper. Due to the fact she was not wearing a mask, I gave her much more than the 6’ recommended, good thing I did because she let out one of those big sneezes that comes from the toes without covering her face, no attempt whatsoever. So, I said to her, “ you should be wearing a mask” and her reply was it’s allergies, and I said, “that’s not the fucken point, is it?”
If she had Covid, I and anyone around her was fucked, so I got the hell away from her. What I found very odd, the extremely overweight and out of breath woman was more at risk of a severe outcome, yet her she was out and about with no precaution or consideration of others, that’s what it boils down to being considerate of those around you.
I also doubt you’ll find a study that puts anyone at risk who’s not wearing a mask, it’s quite simple a mask is better than no mask.
I would rather take my chances with a condom with a hole poked in it than no condom at all, simple!
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rookiepilot
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Re: WJ calls in the Swat Team on Maskless Toddler

Post by rookiepilot »

rookiepilot wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:00 pm
alkaseltzer wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:33 pm
The parents should be charged and at the minimum, served with a heavy fine.
As in Criminally? With what crime -- talking to the media? and what is your proposed sentence? Flogging? Singing "we are family" in a westjet TV Ad?
Still waiting for those appropriate criminal charges to be detailed. Funny the police were there....and passed on any "charges" Maybe that's the police officers call--- no one else.

And....Maybe the Cabin Crew were a bit too militaristic.....and that's why a number of the Pax got upset.

Impossible?
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