COVID MOA 2

[Mrbobmarly111]

I have to say you guys are all nuts. This is a great deal. The Furloughs stay at 600 and 80 get recalled immediately. Someone on flat pay gets 75 credits guaranteed. And others 67 ish (that's up from 55 credits across the board from MOA #1) .. like jesus its great so fortunate we were able to negotiate this. Looks at westjet, transat, sunwing etc etc. Its a great deal and the people who have a problem with it need to remember we are operating at 5% capacity. The reason for allowing the scope to be breached is because they want to have Jazz and Sky operate lots of flight compared to AC. Because filling a RJ and flying it to YWG is better than a half full 320. So w.e who cares if they let them do that for the next few months. It makes financial sense! I want this company to survive and im happy we have a Union that isn't dumb banging its fists on the table saying we want raises as if its pre covid times. Some crazy conspiracy peeps will tell you they want to buy transat and do some kinda crazy back door deal once the scope is open for this 6 months. Bull $h!t and if they do great! Once the 6 months are up the company will have to pay harrrrrd to keep it because it will be back to the status quo contract. relax everyone and vote yes. And alittle info about myself i have over 10 years in the Canadian aviation industry and I am one of the 600 who will remain Furloughed with this MOA. If i could id vote yes.

Anyways have a nice fall and a spooky Halloween.

[Dry Guy]

The "I already took my layoff hit now it's your turn. There's nothing in it for me" is ugly to read. A contrarian, knee-jerk No reaction is natural but they aren't considering how bad things could really get. Not just for other people but for them too. Voting is open for a week so I urge people to take their time and really consider their decision.

[BTD]

I have to say you guys are all nuts. This is a great deal. The Furloughs stay at 600 and 80 get recalled immediately. Someone on flat pay gets 75 credits guaranteed. And others 67 ish (that's up from 55 credits across the board from MOA #1) .. like jesus its great so fortunate we were able to negotiate this. Looks at westjet, transat, sunwing etc etc. Its a great deal and the people who have a problem with it need to remember we are operating at 5% capacity. The reason for allowing the scope to be breached is because they want to have Jazz and Sky operate lots of flight compared to AC. Because filling a RJ and flying it to YWG is better than a half full 320. So w.e who cares if they let them do that for the next few months. It makes financial sense! I want this company to survive and im happy we have a Union that isn't dumb banging its fists on the table saying we want raises as if its pre covid times. Some crazy conspiracy peeps will tell you they want to buy transat and do some kinda crazy back door deal once the scope is open for this 6 months. Bull $h!t and if they do great! Once the 6 months are up the company will have to pay harrrrrd to keep it because it will be back to the status quo contract. relax everyone and vote yes. And alittle info about myself i have over 10 years in the Canadian aviation industry and I am one of the 600 who will remain Furloughed with this MOA. If i could id vote yes.

Anyways have a nice fall and a spooky Halloween.

You may have had been able to make some good arguments in there, but your facts are somewhat off.

There is no let on CPA flying. We are not allowing scope to be breached for an RJ going to YWG, in fact there is an open grievance filed for that. The hours would also be 63 MBG not 67. Please read all the fine details in the MOA.

For many of us it isn’t that the points you have made above aren’t valid, just that we have been screwed enough times so we want to make sure to read between the lines.

[Mrbobmarly111]

Ofcourse take your time and make a educated decision. But I have a feeling it will pass with around 65-70% in favor. Anyone else want to give a guess for fun?

[RippleRock]

Ofcourse take your time and make a educated decision. But I have a feeling it will pass with around 65-70% in favor. Anyone else want to give a guess for fun?

So you think this is just about securing jobs at the bottom end and a 75 hour paycheque?.

TransAt will be purchased in December. In an election year Trudope will not let a Quebec based company implode. You will have voted an "open-ended" Scope LET that is extendable "without your input". READ THE LANGUAGE.

You will be burned by opening the Scope "Pandora's box". Some people obviously have no clue. Many of us "have the tee-shirt". We've been down this road before. AC pilots used to fly 50 seat RJ's and 75 seat EMJ 175's. How many jobs have been lost by us not "drawing a line in the sand" over Scope??

How many pilots would be junior to YOU if we had "held our ground" on Scope? You want it opened up with no snap-back, no ability to even contest it? Seriously? Watch.

If you are not prepared to take a stand for Article 1----the very definition on which all other articles in our Contract are based--- Get out of the way, cuz you don't deserve to be here anyway. The career will erode until it is just a temporary job until you can be replaced. Period.


Quote me.

[291/2chev]

The scope let alone is more than enough reason to vote a hard NO to this MOA !!
My NO is already in the system full stop!

[Ki-ll]

Quote me.

I’ll quote you.
What makes you think that pilots have the pull to set strategic aims of an airline i.e. low-cost carrier, regional subsidiaries etc.?
If the company decided to violate CPA scope maybe during the pandemic it’s not worth paper it’s written on. What makes you so sure that this grievance will be resolved to the satisfaction of the pilots? Do you think you’ll somehow get RJs back to mainline and put Rouge back into the box just because it’s in the contract?

[planebored]

I have to say you guys are all nuts. This is a great deal. The Furloughs stay at 600 and 80 get recalled immediately. Someone on flat pay gets 75 credits guaranteed. And others 67 ish (that's up from 55 credits across the board from MOA #1) .. like jesus its great so fortunate we were able to negotiate this. Looks at westjet, transat, sunwing etc etc. Its a great deal and the people who have a problem with it need to remember we are operating at 5% capacity. The reason for allowing the scope to be breached is because they want to have Jazz and Sky operate lots of flight compared to AC. Because filling a RJ and flying it to YWG is better than a half full 320. So w.e who cares if they let them do that for the next few months. It makes financial sense! I want this company to survive and im happy we have a Union that isn't dumb banging its fists on the table saying we want raises as if its pre covid times. Some crazy conspiracy peeps will tell you they want to buy transat and do some kinda crazy back door deal once the scope is open for this 6 months. Bull $h!t and if they do great! Once the 6 months are up the company will have to pay harrrrrd to keep it because it will be back to the status quo contract. relax everyone and vote yes. And alittle info about myself i have over 10 years in the Canadian aviation industry and I am one of the 600 who will remain Furloughed with this MOA. If i could id vote yes.

Anyways have a nice fall and a spooky Halloween.

Vote no, furloughs can still stay at zero (you think AC is going to lay of thousands of pilots?! LOL)
Flat pay still gets 75
Formula pay get 60/65
And there's not wishy washy language around scope JV/CS and we don't agree to allowing the MEC to extend this indefinitely.

Sounds like a steaming pile of turd to me.

[Mrbobmarly111]

Just curious what people think it will pass or fail by. Give it your best guess. Should be interesting to see.

I think itll pass. Lots of grumpy sky is falling people thinking there is a deep state conspiracy between the union and the company.

68-75% in favor is my vote. I wont be writing anything here till the results are in.

[planebored]

Pass by a hair. Mid 50%. As is tradition with anything ACPA puts forward for a vote (including any MEC votes these days being split 50/50 )

Lots of voting already done, 25% of eligible voters in day one. My guess is most of those are going to be the vocal NO's.

At the end of the day people are going to look out for their self interests only.

They may talk a big game about how they will vote NO but when time comes to click that button....

['97 Tercel]

'webinar' ...they use a ridiculous word in hopes nobody shows up.


Napoleon once said: "When I die, I hope it's during a webinar because the transition from life to death would be so subtle."

[planebored]

How about "Live Online MOA2 Roadshow"

I bet a lot more people would log on.

I heard there's people out on the line that don't even know there's and MOA out for ratification!

I'm interested to hear what is different tomorrow. I hope they spend a solid hour at least answering questions, and not just fluff answers.

[altiplano]

'webinar' ...they use a ridiculous word in hopes nobody shows up.


Napoleon once said: "When I die, I hope it's during a webinar because the transition from life to death would be so subtle."

Perfect.

They hope nobody gets their questions in by the 12:00 EDT deadline either... Like we don't have the ability to submit questions during the webinar. Maybe as they come up and people learn about the deal. Or sometimes you need a follow up question.

THE TECHNOLOGY IS THERE.

They really just want this to quietly pass, and they're worried now so are going through the motions. They won't take the hard questions, and will give canned answers without depth

Plus 30% have already voted!

Initially I thought we'd probably get turnout in the 60s, pass in the 60s - so less than 50% total member support... but talking to senior and junior, I'm honestly not sure this passes and it's because of a lack of trust in ACPA.

Then again, I was shocked the last TA went through... I don't seem to know anyone that voted for it

[planebored]

'webinar' ...they use a ridiculous word in hopes nobody shows up.


Napoleon once said: "When I die, I hope it's during a webinar because the transition from life to death would be so subtle."

Perfect.

They hope nobody gets their questions in by the 12:00 EDT deadline either... Like we don't have the ability to submit questions during the webinar. Maybe as they come up and people learn about the deal. Or sometimes you need a follow up question.

THE TECHNOLOGY IS THERE.

They really just want this to quietly pass, and they're worried now so are going through the motions. They won't take the hard questions, and will give canned answers without depth

Plus 30% have already voted!

Initially I thought we'd probably get turnout in the 60s, pass in the 60s - so less than 50% total member support... but talking to senior and junior, I'm honestly not sure this passes and it's because of a lack of trust in ACPA.

Then again, I was shocked the last TA went through... I don't seem to know anyone that voted for it

100% a lack of trust. After years of being sold on every deal that comes, issues with ethics in the MEC Chair office, seeing the things slip through after a ratification because of grey language etc...

It's no wonder there's trust issues. Maybe this MOA is all fine and dandy and everyone is making a big deal about nothing.

The fact everyone is making a big deal is the fundamental problem and proof we need to make some major changes and figure out how to regain the TRUST of the pilots.

That starts with fall elections and getting rid of the Chair.

[PostmasterGeneral]

I have to say you guys are all nuts. This is a great deal. The Furloughs stay at 600 and 80 get recalled immediately. Someone on flat pay gets 75 credits guaranteed. And others 67 ish (that's up from 55 credits across the board from MOA #1) .. like jesus its great so fortunate we were able to negotiate this. Looks at westjet, transat, sunwing etc etc. Its a great deal and the people who have a problem with it need to remember we are operating at 5% capacity. The reason for allowing the scope to be breached is because they want to have Jazz and Sky operate lots of flight compared to AC. Because filling a RJ and flying it to YWG is better than a half full 320. So w.e who cares if they let them do that for the next few months. It makes financial sense! I want this company to survive and im happy we have a Union that isn't dumb banging its fists on the table saying we want raises as if its pre covid times. Some crazy conspiracy peeps will tell you they want to buy transat and do some kinda crazy back door deal once the scope is open for this 6 months. Bull $h!t and if they do great! Once the 6 months are up the company will have to pay harrrrrd to keep it because it will be back to the status quo contract. relax everyone and vote yes. And alittle info about myself i have over 10 years in the Canadian aviation industry and I am one of the 600 who will remain Furloughed with this MOA. If i could id vote yes.

Anyways have a nice fall and a spooky Halloween.

I gotta stop you right there... I am currently furloughed so I'm ineligible to vote on this, but even if it meant I got my job back, I would be voting a HARD NO on this one. Sure, the short term victory is there for guys like me, but at what cost? I've got another 25 years at this gig, I don't think we should be giving up the farm for something so short sighted. This MOA is bullshit, plain and simple. The fact they're able to extend it at will, how quickly they're moving forward with the vote, it's all just fishy to me. Reeks of "farmer jones used cars" where they're trying to rush you into a deal so they can laugh as you drive off the lot. It doesn't feel right.

I'm posting this here because I can't vote, and I don't want anyone who does vote yes to think they're doing me any favours. Maybe in the short term, sure, but long term it could really f*ck a guy like me over long after you've retired. Please, don't give up anything in our scope for such a short sighted list of garbage.

[Daniel Cooper]

I don't understand why they opened voting before the Q and A. I assume they weren't planning to have one but when 30% voted no they scrambled to educate the masses. After the Q and A the things everyone were freaking out about kind of seen like a nothing burger. If the MOA fails that's on ACPA for not explaining it before opening voting.

[TheStig]

I'm going swim against the current here, I think this vote is an easy yes and I've been 50/50 over the years. The pandemic has been devastating to the industry and Canadian carriers are faced dealing with zero government assistance and some of the most restrictive passenger movement regulations. There haven't been any indications that the near future looks any better.

63 hours a month is a decent improvement over 55 and certainly beats WJ's 58. For all the talk about how ACPA always 'eats its young' 75 hours and 194 less surplus pilots' certainly seems like a win. I don't want to be a fear monger but I don't want to find out what the alternative is should the MOA be voted down, recall TA1 vs FOS if you need a frame of reference.

I don't know what to suggest to anyone who doesn't trust ACPA or AC? ACPA's rollout has been sloppy because they probably didn't foresee the need for 2 webinars and 3 separate Q&A pages after negotiating an agreement they felt addressed the memberships major concerns (pay increases, 75 hours for years 1-4, 80 hours MPU credits, layoff mitigation).

[Hangry]

The MOA will pass. I doubt anyone at ACPA Hq is sweating it.

[snowcone]

Can ACPA see the Yes/No vote numbers prior to vote closing?

[green_guy]

This deal is as good as it's going to get. Increase in hours (above what WJ is getting), stops furloughs and buys another 6 months so the industry can hopefully recover. The company has lost 90% of its revenue (for 6 months and counting) and we might only lay off 600. Not to minimize the impact on the 600 but that's a reasonable outcome, IMO. Voted yes. I hope those laid off are back asap!

[planebored]

Can ACPA see the Yes/No vote numbers prior to vote closing?

No. They can only see the total turnout so far like everyone else. The vote is run by the VCC.

[planebored]

The MOA will pass. I doubt anyone at ACPA Hq is sweating it.

I agree it will likely pass. I disagree regarding HQ sweating. They may not be anymore, but they probably were. Otherwise we wouldn't have seen such an in depth second webinar.

[Tolip410]

Question for you all...why do pilots (MEC) always think they are smarter than the company and their panel of high priced help? If we say yes to this agreement which as usual seems open to lots of interpretation,(you know which way we always end up on that front), what kind of a future are the pilots who are already laid off going to be coming back to? I know these are scary times but jesus...will we ever learn?

[RippleRock]

This deal is as good as it's going to get. Increase in hours (above what WJ is getting), stops furloughs and buys another 6 months so the industry can hopefully recover. The company has lost 90% of its revenue (for 6 months and counting) and we might only lay off 600. Not to minimize the impact on the 600 but that's a reasonable outcome, IMO. Voted yes. I hope those laid off are back asap!

It seems people don't understand what Article 1 is, or what it has meant to the profession. It doesn't matter now though.

This MOA will pass, and we will be one step closer to pilot career redundancy. Since 1937 Air Canada pilots have worked together united, to build what we have, only to have it flushed down the toilet by those not interested in educating themselves of the history and the reason behind their achievement.

It's really sad.



Enjoy your 75 hours though. Management will never respect you for pushing through a "$hit sandwich" on the first vote. Never expect better than garbage, cuz they won't offer it.

[Counterpoint]

Educating themselves of the history and the reason behind ? Let me help you understand the YES vote.

The first union drive for TCA pilots started after WWII, it never made good till the 50’s and then “united” a few air line pilots across the country as part of CALPA. There was no scope back then, all pilots were in-status pay, and your schedule was “given” to you.

Of course all that changed, but all this rah-rah about Air Canada pilots being united has never been my experience. So, spare the sound bites and practice a little EMCON.

Did you have the pleasure of attending the scope webie - where all was explained in pretty pictures. You would notice that after the ACPA did that, all the conspiracies dried up on this thread. Then, all of a sudden the “vote No” crowd say that it’ll “pass” because those of us that took a little time to “understand what Article 1 is” waited to vote after “educating themselves”.

What you and your conspiracy phanatiques did was crap on the ACPA for raising pay (during a force majeure), maintain scope parameters that make sense during a complete loss of revenue period, save pilot jobs that would have been laid off. You voted against all that.

600 on the streets and 194 (if your side “wins” the vote) about to join them, why don’t you give them your name, instead of your opinion.

Ça va faire Rippie, calme toi.

CP