COVID MOA 2

[Fanblade]

This deal is as good as it's going to get. Increase in hours (above what WJ is getting), stops furloughs and buys another 6 months so the industry can hopefully recover. The company has lost 90% of its revenue (for 6 months and counting) and we might only lay off 600. Not to minimize the impact on the 600 but that's a reasonable outcome, IMO. Voted yes. I hope those laid off are back asap!

It seems people don't understand what Article 1 is, or what it has meant to the profession. It doesn't matter now though.

This MOA will pass, and we will be one step closer to pilot career redundancy. Since 1937 Air Canada pilots have worked together united, to build what we have, only to have it flushed down the toilet by those not interested in educating themselves of the history and the reason behind their achievement.

It's really sad.



Enjoy your 75 hours though. Management will never respect you for pushing through a "$hit sandwich" on the first vote. Never expect better than garbage, cuz they won't offer it.

Ripple,

The scope language that has been put into a temporary pause, isn’t an issue. The language is without prejudice. Meaning it is in full force and affect when the MOA expires. Moreover we have the companies agreement that is so. The company has in affect re validated these contractual obligations, while putting them on pause.

The CPA scope language that is being violated without agreement is outside the MOA. That is the issue we should be concerned about. Anytime article 1 language is heading toward arbitration we should be concerned. The fact that an agreement was not reached inside the MOA means the company may want arbitration. Might. We don’t know. And yes history has taught us that when the company wants an article 1 arbitration we usually lose jobs. History has repeatedly show this.

Those are the two issues. One immediate. One future. ACPA has chosen to keep the issues separate and deal with them separately. Some would like the issues intertwined. I get that. That certainly would be the best option. We might come to regret our choice. But it is not an option we were given.

I voted based on what was put in front of me.

My suggestion is that a lot of pressure be put on ACPA to resolve the article 1 infraction. Don’t accept the “we feel confident in our chances,” rebuttal. That historically has been sheep to slaughter.

Counterpoint,

We haven’t lost jobs in every article one grievance. But I don’t think we are even 50/50. If you add up all 75 seat jet jobs that were lost in arbitration, even though our article 1 language said it had to be done at mainline, you will understand the historical concern.

What if the company does want arbitration? What would they want? One of two things. More or larger jets at CPA carriers. Historically it is the result of crisis that we lose jobs in arbitration. Here we are in a crisis once again. And yet again another article 1 grievance. Up until very recently AC had a large fleet of 75-90 seat jets. They are gone. What pray tell do you think the company may want to replace them with?

Many of us have watched this movie multiple times. Every time ACPA says we like our chances. Every time ACPA breaks up the issues into pieces. Every time we work with the company while they are actively stealing our lunch. Some people have had enough. I get it. It has even spilled over into a desire for some to quit ACPA and join a ALPA.

The problem is arbitration is not free from political interference. Notice the Governments recent focus on regional routes.

My guess is the company has decided they don’t like the fin ratio in the article 1 language, now that the E190/E175 is gone. The Covid crisis has provided an opportunity. Unless we change our strategy my guess is we lose more jobs before everyone is recalled.

Both of you have very valid concerns

[planebored]

What you and your conspiracy phanatiques did was crap on the ACPA for raising pay (during a force majeure), maintain scope parameters that make sense during a complete loss of revenue period, save pilot jobs that would have been laid off. You voted against all that.

600 on the streets and 194 (if your side “wins” the vote) about to join them, why don’t you give them your name, instead of your opinion.

Ça va faire Rippie, calme toi.

CP

Technically they didn't raise pay.

It's more than the undemocratic MOA1, but less than the collective agreement which would have been reverted to October 1.

If you think the company was going to stop paying everyone October 1 you're high. Maybe put down the crack pipe.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

I hate to disappoint the conspiracy theorists, but this vote will pass by a wide margin.

The scope conspiracy is dead in the water...you have a very sad individual trying to beat that drum but that person has all sorts of other issues...

The fact is that ever since there have been social media bulletin boards, there has been a small and loud minority of pilots who vote NO for every vote...fortunately they represent 5-10% of the membership. They try and make it sound like there is a grassroots support for their theories for voting no, but they never deliver the votes. The say things like "I have never voted yes for any deal ACPA has presented in the past XX years". And yet the votes pass.

For some reason, they claim in their words and attitudes that they know more than the all of the MEC, Negots Committee, the professional staff of ACPA and all the external consultants that ACPA hires. They make vaguely worded accusations about trust, conspiracy, conflicts of interest...but can never point out a specific charge. Some people might call this arrogance.

I'm willing to admit that there are a lot of people who know a lot more about union contracts, labour law, negotiating etc.

Sadly the HARD NO group doesn't' even entertain the fact that they don't know what they are talking about.

[Counterpoint]

Planebored,

Technically, you told almost 200 of our friends to go and apply for EI. Then you told 600 others to wait a while longer, you’ve got some point you’d like to make with the company.

At 5% passenger load compared to last year ya I think 63 hours is a pay raise all day long. When was the last time you flew 63 hours?

I can see why the MEC didn’t want you to vote on MOA 1, with your Full pay contract by October 1 kind You have no clear understanding of what’s going on in our industry. Force majeure? No revenue period? Parked airplanes in several storage facilities? SARS-Cov-2 scaring governments and passengers? Does any of that in your opinion look like we’re going to go back to a full contract pay for all pilots on October 1?

And your asking me to put the gummie bears away ?

Remember this, you and Rippie voted to Lay more pilots off. Do the furloughed and surplus pilots a favour and please stop telling us how you voted, maybe please stop voting.

Soyons raisonnable planey.

CP

[altiplano]

What does Force Majeure allows them to do in the contract?

Has anyone looked that up?

We aren't getting a raise, all we're doing is making concessions after we've gone 6 years in a concessionary contract, plus hit with FOS 2 years before that...

At least in the good times we should have been making gains, the fact is our contract is already in the sewer and we're giving more!?

If you still believe that we should make more concessions now, then we should share in the wealth when the upswing comes. Raises, scheduling improvements, full pay DH, something at least!

United pilots got 5%, improved DH rules, scheduling improvements, among other tidbits for helping out through these times in their TA.

They don't just give it up... yet here we are... like a crack whore for a dime bag... except we don't even get the dime bag or of the deal...

[Counterpoint]

Altipiano,

Is UA running at 5% revenue ?

You’d rather put more pilots on the streets for some scheduling rules and DH credits ? You think this is the time for that ?

Crack this Crack that, you consPIRACY guys are on a trend.

Réveille toi Alti.

CP

[landshark]

UA has also received a massive bailout from the US Govt

[ACpirate]

I will listen to the second webinar again and very carefully look for the WHY on the Rouge let. There was a clear WHY for the JV let. There is also information from the scope committee that the request for the Rouge let be for a much longer duration....the why is a little more apparent in that context.

Good luck to all of us. Whatever the result we are going to need it.

[planebored]

Pay everyone the same, with the same work rules and one pilot list where you bid for Rouge or ML flying and I could care less how long a "Rouge let" is.

The sooner LOU74 is in the trash bin, the better.

Sorry not sorry Rougies.

[supersoniccble]

What does Force Majeure allows them to do in the contract?

Has anyone looked that up?

We aren't getting a raise, all we're doing is making concessions after we've gone 6 years in a concessionary contract, plus hit with FOS 2 years before that...

At least in the good times we should have been making gains, the fact is our contract is already in the sewer and we're giving more!?

If you still believe that we should make more concessions now, then we should share in the wealth when the upswing comes. Raises, scheduling improvements, full pay DH, something at least!

United pilots got 5%, improved DH rules, scheduling improvements, among other tidbits for helping out through these times in their TA.

They don't just give it up... yet here we are... like a crack whore for a dime bag... except we don't even get the dime bag or of the deal...

OMG You pilots are a bunch of whining fools. I hope the vote passes. Glad we are getting 5 more hours than Westjet. Too bad about the 100 layoffs. Man could be 200 more. Cant believe he have to give concessions. Listen to yourselves. Consider yourselves lucky to even be on the payroll right row. What can the company do with Force Majeure ? Why dont you ask all the other employee groups that dont have jobs. How about the poor guys worried about how they are going to put food on the table all while your one employee group is bankrupting the company.

Some of you havent flown for quite a while(MAX) all still collecting a paycheque. Cant tell me the company needs 4300 pilots on payroll while there is only 10% capacity. Funny how pilots dont want to use the term laid off, but furloughed. How is it the company can layoff thousands in other work groups under the guise of Force Majeure but you guys cant be.....but you whine and complain when 100 get laidoff. You should be ashamed of yourselves for the way you act. The rest of the company should be screaming bloody murder the way we are treated as second class.

There were over 5000 applications for a pilot position at Morningstar for a 757 cojo. A lot of you guys looking for work. Dont think your job is as secure as you think. The company cant keep paying 4000 pilots close to $40 million in salary each month with nothing else coming in. For the past 6 months thats $240 million in salary just for your group. Too bad for the 5000 flight attendants, the 3000 maintenance guys, thousands of rampies and CSAs. Oh sorry forgot to mention the countless management positions that were permanently axed. Oh and lastly the 100 pilots. All because the company used Force Majeure.

So instead of worrying about your stupid concessions your stupid vote and getting a few more hours than Westjet. Take a good hard look in the mirror and say to youselves holy crap we are lucky to have a job because a lot of our colleagues dont.

[Thorjones]

What does Force Majeure allows them to do in the contract?

Has anyone looked that up?

We aren't getting a raise, all we're doing is making concessions after we've gone 6 years in a concessionary contract, plus hit with FOS 2 years before that...

At least in the good times we should have been making gains, the fact is our contract is already in the sewer and we're giving more!?

If you still believe that we should make more concessions now, then we should share in the wealth when the upswing comes. Raises, scheduling improvements, full pay DH, something at least!

United pilots got 5%, improved DH rules, scheduling improvements, among other tidbits for helping out through these times in their TA.

They don't just give it up... yet here we are... like a crack whore for a dime bag... except we don't even get the dime bag or of the deal...

OMG You pilots are a bunch of whining fools. I hope the vote passes. Glad we are getting 5 more hours than Westjet. Too bad about the 100 layoffs. Man could be 200 more. Cant believe he have to give concessions. Listen to yourselves. Consider yourselves lucky to even be on the payroll right row. What can the company do with Force Majeure ? Why dont you ask all the other employee groups that dont have jobs. How about the poor guys worried about how they are going to put food on the table all while your one employee group is bankrupting the company.

Some of you havent flown for quite a while(MAX) all still collecting a paycheque. Cant tell me the company needs 4300 pilots on payroll while there is only 10% capacity. Funny how pilots dont want to use the term laid off, but furloughed. How is it the company can layoff thousands in other work groups under the guise of Force Majeure but you guys cant be.....but you whine and complain when 100 get laidoff. You should be ashamed of yourselves for the way you act. The rest of the company should be screaming bloody murder the way we are treated as second class.

There were over 5000 applications for a pilot position at Morningstar for a 757 cojo. A lot of you guys looking for work. Dont think your job is as secure as you think. The company cant keep paying 4000 pilots close to $40 million in salary each month with nothing else coming in. For the past 6 months thats $240 million in salary just for your group. Too bad for the 5000 flight attendants, the 3000 maintenance guys, thousands of rampies and CSAs. Oh sorry forgot to mention the countless management positions that were permanently axed. Oh and lastly the 100 pilots. All because the company used Force Majeure.

So instead of worrying about your stupid concessions your stupid vote and getting a few more hours than Westjet. Take a good hard look in the mirror and say to youselves holy crap we are lucky to have a job because a lot of our colleagues dont.

Found CRs burner account

[Ratherbe]

A lot of us are not whining fools but we do have some gems among us!

A lot of us have taken huge paycuts to help minimize layoffs and allow for a quick recovery if that ever happens. That shows integrity and empathy which are positive traits for anyone.

I’m sure this will pass and hopefully by a wide margin. The militant minority fails to see what the repercussions of a NO vote would likely look like. IMO, if this was turned down, the company would react with massive layoffs to “right size” for the next 2 years, file notice to bargain (gut) our contract and proceed to arbitration over the CPA grievance. ACPA would have to remove the entire Negots committee and start fresh kind of like they did following TA1. FOS 2 would be a likely result.

Hopefully the results of MOA2 will at least temporary silence the destructive group on the other forum and allow their leader to seek the professional help he needs before he completely implodes.

[altiplano]

What does Force Majeure allows them to do in the contract?

Has anyone looked that up?

We aren't getting a raise, all we're doing is making concessions after we've gone 6 years in a concessionary contract, plus hit with FOS 2 years before that...

At least in the good times we should have been making gains, the fact is our contract is already in the sewer and we're giving more!?

If you still believe that we should make more concessions now, then we should share in the wealth when the upswing comes. Raises, scheduling improvements, full pay DH, something at least!

United pilots got 5%, improved DH rules, scheduling improvements, among other tidbits for helping out through these times in their TA.

They don't just give it up... yet here we are... like a crack whore for a dime bag... except we don't even get the dime bag or of the deal...

OMG You pilots are a bunch of whining fools. I hope the vote passes. Glad we are getting 5 more hours than Westjet. Too bad about the 100 layoffs. Man could be 200 more. Cant believe he have to give concessions. Listen to yourselves. Consider yourselves lucky to even be on the payroll right row. What can the company do with Force Majeure ? Why dont you ask all the other employee groups that dont have jobs. How about the poor guys worried about how they are going to put food on the table all while your one employee group is bankrupting the company.

Some of you havent flown for quite a while(MAX) all still collecting a paycheque. Cant tell me the company needs 4300 pilots on payroll while there is only 10% capacity. Funny how pilots dont want to use the term laid off, but furloughed. How is it the company can layoff thousands in other work groups under the guise of Force Majeure but you guys cant be.....but you whine and complain when 100 get laidoff. You should be ashamed of yourselves for the way you act. The rest of the company should be screaming bloody murder the way we are treated as second class.

There were over 5000 applications for a pilot position at Morningstar for a 757 cojo. A lot of you guys looking for work. Dont think your job is as secure as you think. The company cant keep paying 4000 pilots close to $40 million in salary each month with nothing else coming in. For the past 6 months thats $240 million in salary just for your group. Too bad for the 5000 flight attendants, the 3000 maintenance guys, thousands of rampies and CSAs. Oh sorry forgot to mention the countless management positions that were permanently axed. Oh and lastly the 100 pilots. All because the company used Force Majeure.

So instead of worrying about your stupid concessions your stupid vote and getting a few more hours than Westjet. Take a good hard look in the mirror and say to youselves holy crap we are lucky to have a job because a lot of our colleagues dont.

Whiming fool? Hahahs! At least I'm not a bitch. Take a pill Sensitive Sally.

You clearly don't know the answer to what Force Majeure affords the company in the pilot contract, one clause to be suspended... that's all, but it's thrown around like they can do whatever they want and run rough over us.

Force Majeure does not apply to pilot layoff, the company will layoff... sorry, furlough how ever many they want when they want and they don't need Force Majeure to do it. This MOA doesn't change that.

Why don't you start by getting your numbers right aswell, they let go 600 pilots, plus cancelled courses for about 100 guys that were about to start and probably couldn't get their old jobs back.

Other unionised employee groups took zero concessions and their layoff situation reflects that... also a lot of employee groups and social media managers aren't really required to run the core functionality of an airline and they got cut.

I don't care about 55 hours or 63 hours or WTF WestJet got, that's not my problem. I certainly don't care what CUPE or did or didn't do, or the IAMAW although I feel for the plight of my Licensed Engineer brothers stuck under the unskilled masses in that bargaining group.

I care about our pilots being spring loaded to concessions every time the company comes, and without enough self respect to get a snap back, or a sliver of the share of the gains on the recovery.

We always do that, give it up for nothing. I'm glad that we are buying 6 months more certainty, not just for the next 180 or so surplus, but for the whole group, but ACPA's execution stinks. They just bend over and take the terms the company offers every time.

"A little lube on the tip this time Mr.Rovinescu?"

"No, that's a non-starter, now assume the position."

Every fuckin time.

[altiplano]

Altipiano,

Is UA running at 5% revenue ?

You’d rather put more pilots on the streets for some scheduling rules and DH credits ? You think this is the time for that ?

Crack this Crack that, you consPIRACY guys are on a trend.

Réveille toi Alti.

CP

Your comprehension is poor and your fear is high.

I didn't say I wanted to put pilots on the street. Fact is AC will lay off whatever they will, and this MOA didn't change that for long.

AC isn't running on 5% revenues either. No doubt they are getting whacked, but it doesn't mean you check your head at the door and don't scrutinize and take a critical stands in what you're doing.

You guys approach it like this is something you want, like the company is doing is a favour, but the fact is that the company would never do us a favour, this is also something the company wants. There is always leverage - no matter how small - and we always fail to wield it because of scared checkers players like you.

Wide awake!

[altiplano]

The CPA scope language that is being violated without agreement is outside the MOA.

Those are the two issues. One immediate. One future. ACPA has chosen to keep the issues separate and deal with them separately. Some would like the issues intertwined. I get that. That certainly would be the best option. We might come to regret our choice. But it is not an option we were given.

We really need to take a holistic approach on our relationship with the Corporation. Shaking hands with someone while you know they're picking your pocket is stupid.

The CPA grievance is math. That's all, it's pretty straight forward and not open to interpretation of language or intent. It's math. Any suggestion that it's not a slam dunk Pilot doesn't understand what's being grieved. The comoany is just buying time by going through the grievance process.

The company is also excluded from seeking arbitration on any Article 1 clause until after 2024. That's explicit in the Framework MOA.

[rudder]

By all appearances, MOA2 is a further reduction bid without the actual reduction. The payroll saving is quantifiable as is the the saving in training expense.

AC is placing a bet that it will not have to run the mother of all reduction bids in January as this MOA imposes a further delay in right-sizing the airline if that is going to be the inevitable outcome.

All of this is happening in the backdrop of a possible spring 2021 CCAA filing. I am guessing 40/60 chance. That filing would likely be accompanied by a restructuring plan that would move the fleet back to its size 5-7 years ago. AC unfortunately still has in place a circa 2019 commercial plan that may be unsuited to the 2021-2024 reality.

[Fanblade]

The CPA scope language that is being violated without agreement is outside the MOA.

Those are the two issues. One immediate. One future. ACPA has chosen to keep the issues separate and deal with them separately. Some would like the issues intertwined. I get that. That certainly would be the best option. We might come to regret our choice. But it is not an option we were given.

We really need to take a holistic approach on our relationship with the Corporation. Shaking hands with someone while you know they're picking your pocket is stupid.

Agreed

The CPA grievance is math. That's all, it's pretty straight forward and not open to interpretation of language or intent. It's math. Any suggestion that it's not a slam dunk Pilot doesn't understand what's being grieved. The comoany is just buying time by going through the grievance process.

Grievances have opened doors in the past. We have made the mistake of hanging our hat on language, just like you have above.

75 seat jets to the regionals started as a grievance. The company unilaterally decided 75 seat jets were going to Jazz. Our scope language stated no jets over 50 seats. It was supposed to be a slam dunk. (Insert political interference during crisis here) The issue ended up in interest based arbitration. Jazz got half the 75 seat jets.

10 years later, a Skyregional grievance. Slam dunk.(insert political interference during crisis here) another arbitration, and they and Sky now have all the 75 seat jets BUT limited by a ratio.

It’s a slow process of degrading article 1. But the flow is always only in one direction. Now they are back for the limit on 75 seat jets and Q’s.

While parking AC’s 90 seat jets, the company is unilaterally violating the Ratio that limits the 75 seat jets and Q’s at CPA carriers. You say the language is a slam dunk.

I say I have seen this movie before. Watch this crisis evolve. Watch for the lobbying. Watch for (political interference inserted here during crisis)

During this crisis AC has a bulls eye on the CPA fin limit and they will steer this crisis to that end. Over confidence is a weakness. CR will be working in the background to put us in a corner. By the time we figure it out it will be too late. It’s his calling card. The thing is we should be able to see why. The ratio, if adhered to, would drastically impair AC’s ability to compete, if AC needs to shrink. More so if it is wide body shrinkage. The ratio never contemplated a wide body fleet below a specific level. It would force CPA carrier to park their jets and Q’s. Not going to happen. How do you think that would go over with a government now focused on regional routes?

And we will just work with them, ignore the elephant in the room, all the way to the gun being placed at our head.

I’m senior enough. It won’t impact me. I’m just warning you. I have seen this over and over. You will pay for complacency. The crazy thing is that with all these arbitrated changes to article 1 we have never received anything in return. Always just taken.

[Fanblade]

By all appearances, MOA2 is a further reduction bid without the actual reduction. The payroll saving is quantifiable.....

How do you figure. 63 hours is pretty normal for a block at the very bottom of the lowest blocking window.

This is my third time down at 63 hours. Prior it was CCAA and the start of Rouge. Both of those were under the contract.

I think this MOA focuses on a bounce back. Lots of temporary seniority gives to get fleets back up and running. However that window will probably close if normality isn’t restored for summer 2021.

[planebored]

What does Force Majeure allows them to do in the contract?

Has anyone looked that up?

We aren't getting a raise, all we're doing is making concessions after we've gone 6 years in a concessionary contract, plus hit with FOS 2 years before that...

At least in the good times we should have been making gains, the fact is our contract is already in the sewer and we're giving more!?

If you still believe that we should make more concessions now, then we should share in the wealth when the upswing comes. Raises, scheduling improvements, full pay DH, something at least!

United pilots got 5%, improved DH rules, scheduling improvements, among other tidbits for helping out through these times in their TA.

They don't just give it up... yet here we are... like a crack whore for a dime bag... except we don't even get the dime bag or of the deal...

OMG You pilots are a bunch of whining fools. I hope the vote passes. Glad we are getting 5 more hours than Westjet. Too bad about the 100 layoffs. Man could be 200 more. Cant believe he have to give concessions. Listen to yourselves. Consider yourselves lucky to even be on the payroll right row. What can the company do with Force Majeure ? Why dont you ask all the other employee groups that dont have jobs. How about the poor guys worried about how they are going to put food on the table all while your one employee group is bankrupting the company.

Some of you havent flown for quite a while(MAX) all still collecting a paycheque. Cant tell me the company needs 4300 pilots on payroll while there is only 10% capacity. Funny how pilots dont want to use the term laid off, but furloughed. How is it the company can layoff thousands in other work groups under the guise of Force Majeure but you guys cant be.....but you whine and complain when 100 get laidoff. You should be ashamed of yourselves for the way you act. The rest of the company should be screaming bloody murder the way we are treated as second class.

There were over 5000 applications for a pilot position at Morningstar for a 757 cojo. A lot of you guys looking for work. Dont think your job is as secure as you think. The company cant keep paying 4000 pilots close to $40 million in salary each month with nothing else coming in. For the past 6 months thats $240 million in salary just for your group. Too bad for the 5000 flight attendants, the 3000 maintenance guys, thousands of rampies and CSAs. Oh sorry forgot to mention the countless management positions that were permanently axed. Oh and lastly the 100 pilots. All because the company used Force Majeure.

So instead of worrying about your stupid concessions your stupid vote and getting a few more hours than Westjet. Take a good hard look in the mirror and say to youselves holy crap we are lucky to have a job because a lot of our colleagues dont.

Found CRs burner account

Or literally any of the many entitled FAs who think their job is so hard and they are irreplaceable. Based on the term "second class" being used which I hear thrown around by them fairly often.

Sorry FA's.. you kinda are. It took what, 6 weeks to get hired at AC? And somehow we have the same C2 passes? You think you are so special? It took me close to a decade to get AN INTERVIEW, and that was considered fast. But socialist Canada and "equality" and all that shit.

[planebored]

A lot of us are not whining fools but we do have some gems among us!

A lot of us have taken huge paycuts to help minimize layoffs and allow for a quick recovery if that ever happens. That shows integrity and empathy which are positive traits for anyone.

I’m sure this will pass and hopefully by a wide margin. The militant minority fails to see what the repercussions of a NO vote would likely look like. IMO, if this was turned down, the company would react with massive layoffs to “right size” for the next 2 years, file notice to bargain (gut) our contract and proceed to arbitration over the CPA grievance. ACPA would have to remove the entire Negots committee and start fresh kind of like they did following TA1. FOS 2 would be a likely result.

Hopefully the results of MOA2 will at least temporary silence the destructive group on the other forum and allow their leader to seek the professional help he needs before he completely implodes.

Reading that place I don't think he's anyone's leader anymore. He's going off the rails and people see it. He needs to see a brain doctor, he has delusions of grandeur and that usually a telling sign of underlying mental health issues.

[planebored]

By all appearances, MOA2 is a further reduction bid without the actual reduction. The payroll saving is quantifiable as is the the saving in training expense.

AC is placing a bet that it will not have to run the mother of all reduction bids in January as this MOA imposes a further delay in right-sizing the airline if that is going to be the inevitable outcome.

All of this is happening in the backdrop of a possible spring 2021 CCAA filing. I am guessing 40/60 chance. That filing would likely be accompanied by a restructuring plan that would move the fleet back to its size 5-7 years ago. AC unfortunately still has in place a circa 2019 commercial plan that may be unsuited to the 2021-2024 reality.

I am somewhat pessimistic and agree with you on a few fronts.

That said I don't see a big fleet reduction, instead I see them pushing for a longer term cost savings recover plan that sees the same amount of fleet with lower pay for 3-5 years to "recover"... And our union will fall for it.

I ask people quite regularly (randoms too) if they would travel if they could. Nearly everyone says yes, and many even bring up how flush they are right now because of CERB and the fact they haven't spent money this summer.

All we need is either a vaccine, or opening of a bunch of air bridges with on site testing with removal of 14 day quarantine and within a few months I would wager a big increase in travel.

[altiplano]

The CPA scope language that is being violated without agreement is outside the MOA.

Those are the two issues. One immediate. One future. ACPA has chosen to keep the issues separate and deal with them separately. Some would like the issues intertwined. I get that. That certainly would be the best option. We might come to regret our choice. But it is not an option we were given.

We really need to take a holistic approach on our relationship with the Corporation. Shaking hands with someone while you know they're picking your pocket is stupid.

Agreed

The CPA grievance is math. That's all, it's pretty straight forward and not open to interpretation of language or intent. It's math. Any suggestion that it's not a slam dunk Pilot doesn't understand what's being grieved. The comoany is just buying time by going through the grievance process.

Grievances have opened doors in the past. We have made the mistake of hanging our hat on language, just like you have above.

75 seat jets to the regionals started as a grievance. The company unilaterally decided 75 seat jets were going to Jazz. Our scope language stated no jets over 50 seats. It was supposed to be a slam dunk. (Insert political interference during crisis here) The issue ended up in interest based arbitration. Jazz got half the 75 seat jets.

10 years later, a Skyregional grievance. Slam dunk.(insert political interference during crisis here) another arbitration, and they and Sky now have all the 75 seat jets BUT limited by a ratio.

It’s a slow process of degrading article 1. But the flow is always only in one direction. Now they are back for the limit on 75 seat jets and Q’s.

While parking AC’s 90 seat jets, the company is unilaterally violating the Ratio that limits the 75 seat jets and Q’s at CPA carriers. You say the language is a slam dunk.

I say I have seen this movie before. Watch this crisis evolve. Watch for the lobbying. Watch for (political interference inserted here during crisis)

During this crisis AC has a bulls eye on the CPA fin limit and they will steer this crisis to that end. Over confidence is a weakness. CR will be working in the background to put us in a corner. By the time we figure it out it will be too late. It’s his calling card. The thing is we should be able to see why. The ratio, if adhered to, would drastically impair AC’s ability to compete, if AC needs to shrink. More so if it is wide body shrinkage. The ratio never contemplated a wide body fleet below a specific level. It would force CPA carrier to park their jets and Q’s. Not going to happen. How do you think that would go over with a government now focused on regional routes?

And we will just work with them, ignore the elephant in the room, all the way to the gun being placed at our head.

I’m senior enough. It won’t impact me. I’m just warning you. I have seen this over and over. You will pay for complacency. The crazy thing is that with all these arbitrated changes to article 1 we have never received anything in return. Always just taken.

I don't disagree. They are coming at us at all times. Inch here, Mile there.

I do believe it will be hard to arbitrate scope until after 2024 though. We never had language like is in the Framework MOA, explicitly excluding it, in the past.

[snowcone]

Wasn’t the 10 year deal made for times like this?

We gave up so much during the best times in order to have security down the road. We are at that point and the company wants to take more?

ACPA said the company deserves a let with codeshare ratios as they have been such good boys over the last years....has the company ever in it’s existence given us anything extra because we were good to them?

The company will do what they need for layoffs. Training is running full out right now....they wouldn’t be if they didn’t need to. If this gets voted down, we go back to the 10 year deal with very limited items either side can bring to the table to an arbitrator. They can not gut the contract, plane and simple.

Do not throw away your career 20 years down the road in order to be a hero for Calin.

[aV1aTOr]

So much discussion on here about the "scope let". As if it's some massive give. Clearly it's misunderstood.

All the MOA allows the company to do is pause JV ASM data collection for 6 more months (they have already been allowed this for 6 months with MOA 1). That places them in a better position to negotiate JVs in the future without the albatross of 2020 ASM ratio data muddying the water. These JVs have served ACPA pilots very well in the past. Disproportionately well, compared to our JV partner airlines.

It is not relaxing any of the ratios we have in the CA once the MOA expires.
It is not allowing any new JVs that violate our scope articles.
It is giving zero let on capacity purchase flying.
It is simply allowing Air Canada to erase 2020 ASM ratio data for future opportunities.
It was negotiated "without prejudice", meaning it cannot be used by any party as leverage in future negotiations.

WHERE IS THE CONSPIRACY?

[altiplano]

The fact is that we don't know what they were doing to do and we are writing then a blank cheque on codeshare/JV.

There is also setting aside LOU74 ratios. What was the point of the growth/shrink ratio of we are just going to set it aside on the first downturn?

Then there is the unilateral extension to the agreement by the MEC.

And the fact that we are showing we will be leveraged over threat of layoff. The corp will continue to extract concessions from us with that until we finally can give no more, or they calculate they'll come ahead with layoffs, or they decide to shrink staff, and then they'll lay off anyway.

We are also really paying for them to have maximum flexibility in their business plans until they decide what they want to do. And not necessarily that that's all a bad thing, I want My Airline to come through this well and be responsive, but we haven't been recognized for the risk we are taking here. We failed to achieve anything for taking that on. Jobs some will say, but we are buying and paying for those in spades, corp can't go any faster than it has or they wouldn't have enough NB FOs left... besides see above, we are kicking the van down the road at best.

Wasn’t the 10 year deal made for times like this?

We gave up so much during the best times in order to have security down the road. We are at that point and the company wants to take more?

ACPA said the company deserves a let with codeshare ratios as they have been such good boys over the last years....has the company ever in it’s existence given us anything extra because we were good to them?

The company will do what they need for layoffs. Training is running full out right now....they wouldn’t be if they didn’t need to. If this gets voted down, we go back to the 10 year deal with very limited items either side can bring to the table to an arbitrator. They can not gut the contract, plane and simple.

Do not throw away your career 20 years down the road in order to be a hero for Calin.

Yes.

Also, the company said "take it or leave it" to the NC/LRD and doesn't plan on revisiting the agreement, but of course that's what they would say, that's how you apply pressure. That's how Rovinescu gets what he wants, fear of the unknown. Make no mistake that he wants this... he can't let go of more pilots yet, he can't stop paying. Put it back at him and get a better deal.