Is this not the first downturn since 2017 when we added the LCC growth/shrink?
right.....you really don't understand do you...it's not the first downturn since 2017...it's the first world-wide meltdown in the aviation industry ever....point to me the language in the CA pertaining to world-wide pandemics and economic collapse
Okay, you're a Yes man. I got it...
yes, and you're a bitter, chicken-little-the-sky-is-falling if you vote yes, you-can't-trust anyone, nay-saying NO man...
1.03.04 allows them to suspend block hour guarantees in 1.04. That's the language re:pandemics.
Otherwise you're nothing but insults here. Why? What's your problem? Why do you feel the need to insult people over voicing concerns?
I didn't vote for the MOA. However, I won't vilify those who did. I could make a well thought out argument on why I didn't and I am sure those who did can do the same.
Reasonable people can disagree.
Lets move past the "you don't 100% agree with me, therefore you are the enemy" thinking. There is enough of that out in the "real" world now.
Now that this vote is behind us, lets move forward, keep an eye on how things progress, and pull in the same direction.
BTD wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:59 pm
I didn't vote for the MOA. However, I won't vilify those who did. I could make a well thought out argument on why I didn't and I am sure those who did can do the same.
Reasonable people can disagree.
Lets move past the "you don't 100% agree with me, therefore you are the enemy" thinking. There is enough of that out in the "real" world now.
Now that this vote is behind us, lets move forward, keep an eye on how things progress, and pull in the same direction.
Active pilots voted themselves a pay raise while 600 members are out of work and wondering where their next meal will come from. Disgusting.
Actually it's a continued pay cut for all but those in the first 4 years... But the scope lets might keep the 600 out a little longer... we'll see what happens next.
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Last edited by altiplano on Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
you can quit ACPA any time you want...however "In Canada, the union dues paid by all workers in a unionized workplace flow to certified unions as a result of a Supreme Court Decision from 1946, known as the Rand Formula."
i.e you will still pay union dues
you can quit ACPA any time you want...however "In Canada, the union dues paid by all workers in a unionized workplace flow to certified unions as a result of a Supreme Court Decision from 1946, known as the Rand Formula."
i.e you will still pay union dues
Your « yes man » comment gets a « chicken-little » response and in the same post you call that insulting ?
You think 1.03.04 is our protection for a worldwide pandemic that will forever change the our careers ?
You insinuate some sort of conspiracy against one of our own ? If I were you I’d amend your post, naming names isn’t fair if you hide behind anonymity.
There was an article in Montreal’s La Presse yesterday that interviewed Air Transat, Jazz and Air Canada pilots now school bus drivers and construction workers and sales associates, I feel for those pilots, and I admire their ability to get on with it despite being out of work pilots. That can’t be easy. I tip my hat to them and their families.
There isn’t a union or contract that can protect what is happening to us as pilots now (not ALPA, not P4C) but so far ACPA has done a good job. I’m disappointed that you claim to want critical discussion but then slander a guy with conspiracy. On the last webbie he explained the scope issues in the MOA2, well spoken clear and to me trustworthy. People I’ve talked to say he is an outstanding worker and gives much of his time on our behalf. I trust him and his judgement.
Counterpoint wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:09 am
Your « yes man » comment gets a « chicken-little » response and in the same post you call that insulting ?
You said you're a Yes man. That you support whatever the Union and company put out. Ok. Is that not what you mean? I think that's a simple way to put it.
You think 1.03.04 is our protection for a worldwide pandemic that will forever change the our careers ?
It was asked where pandemic is addressed in our contract. There it is. Specific language and the specific clause it addresses.
You insinuate some sort of conspiracy against one of our own ? If I were you I’d amend your post, naming names isn’t fair if you hide behind anonymity.
I didn't insinuate conspiracy, only that I hope everyone, especially the committee chair, is watching very closely and not busy with other things. Baking the scope chair by his name isn't naming names, any more than the saying the CEO's name or Primer Minister's name...
There was an article in Montreal’s La Presse yesterday that interviewed Air Transat, Jazz and Air Canada pilots now school bus drivers and construction workers and sales associates, I feel for those pilots, and I admire their ability to get on with it despite being out of work pilots. That can’t be easy. I tip my hat to them and their families.
I hope they are back quickly. That's why we have to watch scope and ratios so closely and evaluate the next course in spring.
There isn’t a union or contract that can protect what is happening to us as pilots now (not ALPA, not P4C) but so far ACPA has done a good job.
That's debatable. What's done is done. I think we could have saved jobs, helped the company, and still helped ourselves with a better agreement. At least with snapbacks.
I’m disappointed that you claim to want critical discussion but then slander a guy with conspiracy. On the last webbie he explained the scope issues in the MOA2, well spoken clear and to me trustworthy. People I’ve talked to say he is an outstanding worker and gives much of his time on our behalf. I trust him and his judgement.
No slander there as I explained above, I just hope he's earning those DSCs monitoring very closely what's happening. The scope explanation in webinar 2 was incomplete and reaching on its conclusions but was well enough put together for people who have never looked at it or scrutinized it before. Nice graphs... And to be clear, for you is it okay that he and 26 others undermined our collective bargaining in 2012, but not okay for me to criticise an MOA?
The turnout is very high compared to other votes.
Right on, that was good.
Anyway. I expect it will be until the next big vote that we see you again... you should consider a new moniker, how about StatusQuo?
Everyone i know who Altiplano is..... no longer a tool its nice to see he edited his original msg. I might have been to quick to resort to name calling. edited
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Counterpoint wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:29 am
This is insinuation and conspiracy. You are naming names while hiding behind your anonymity. This isn’t fair.
Alright. Edited. But I don't think saying the individual in charge of it at our association better be on the ball and on top of scope is "naming names." Do we all not know who the scope chair is?
Counterpoint wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:29 am
This is insinuation and conspiracy. You are naming names while hiding behind your anonymity. This isn’t fair.
Alright. Edited. But I don't think saying the individual in charge of it at our association better be on the ball and on top of scope is "naming names." Do we all not know who the scope chair is?
Culture Cancel and gags on here Altiplano. You are insightful and correct, and you provide the truth . They are one ones who cant handle the truth! A lot of us know what is going to happen in the next 6 months and Giguere has the axe ready to chop us to pieces in exchange for some contaminated fuel
altiplano wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:02 pm
What does Force Majeure allows them to do in the contract?
Has anyone looked that up?
We aren't getting a raise, all we're doing is making concessions after we've gone 6 years in a concessionary contract, plus hit with FOS 2 years before that...
At least in the good times we should have been making gains, the fact is our contract is already in the sewer and we're giving more!?
If you still believe that we should make more concessions now, then we should share in the wealth when the upswing comes. Raises, scheduling improvements, full pay DH, something at least!
United pilots got 5%, improved DH rules, scheduling improvements, among other tidbits for helping out through these times in their TA.
They don't just give it up... yet here we are... like a crack whore for a dime bag... except we don't even get the dime bag or of the deal...
OMG You pilots are a bunch of whining fools. I hope the vote passes. Glad we are getting 5 more hours than Westjet. Too bad about the 100 layoffs. Man could be 200 more. Cant believe he have to give concessions. Listen to yourselves. Consider yourselves lucky to even be on the payroll right row. What can the company do with Force Majeure ? Why dont you ask all the other employee groups that dont have jobs. How about the poor guys worried about how they are going to put food on the table all while your one employee group is bankrupting the company.
Some of you havent flown for quite a while(MAX) all still collecting a paycheque. Cant tell me the company needs 4300 pilots on payroll while there is only 10% capacity. Funny how pilots dont want to use the term laid off, but furloughed. How is it the company can layoff thousands in other work groups under the guise of Force Majeure but you guys cant be.....but you whine and complain when 100 get laidoff. You should be ashamed of yourselves for the way you act. The rest of the company should be screaming bloody murder the way we are treated as second class.
There were over 5000 applications for a pilot position at Morningstar for a 757 cojo. A lot of you guys looking for work. Dont think your job is as secure as you think. The company cant keep paying 4000 pilots close to $40 million in salary each month with nothing else coming in. For the past 6 months thats $240 million in salary just for your group. Too bad for the 5000 flight attendants, the 3000 maintenance guys, thousands of rampies and CSAs. Oh sorry forgot to mention the countless management positions that were permanently axed. Oh and lastly the 100 pilots. All because the company used Force Majeure.
So instead of worrying about your stupid concessions your stupid vote and getting a few more hours than Westjet. Take a good hard look in the mirror and say to youselves holy crap we are lucky to have a job because a lot of our colleagues dont.
Active pilots voted themselves a pay raise while 600 members are out of work and wondering where their next meal will come from. Disgusting.
Actually it's a continued pay cut for all but those in the first 4 years... But the scope lets might keep the 600 out a little longer... we'll see what happens next.
How do you figure a "continued pay cut" occurred here?
55 hours -> 63 hours for formula pay pilots.
55 hours -> 75 hours for flat pay pilots.
Active pilots voted themselves a pay raise while 600 members are out of work and wondering where their next meal will come from. Disgusting.
Huh?
Let me explain. Pilots remaining employed after Sept 30th will now receive either 63 or 75 hours MBG. This represents an increment of "X" dollars in the company's payroll.
Know what else costs "X" dollars? Bringing back the 600 laid off pilots. Or some of them. The government is even offering to cover their wages under CEWS which is extended until summer 2021.
Instead of sending ACPA back to the table to negotiate a deal that helps ALL pilots, 82.5% chose to take the cash and leave the bottom 600 in the cold. Solidarity anyone? Oh right... solidarity applies in reverse order of seniority
Like I said... disgusting. Am I the only one who sees this?
Active pilots voted themselves a pay raise while 600 members are out of work and wondering where their next meal will come from. Disgusting.
Actually it's a continued pay cut for all but those in the first 4 years... But the scope lets might keep the 600 out a little longer... we'll see what happens next.
How do you figure a "continued pay cut" occurred here?
55 hours -> 63 hours for formula pay pilots.
55 hours -> 75 hours for flat pay pilots.
If the vote was No we would revert to pre-existing contract/moa pay:
- 4 year fixed rate pilots 55 ->75 (contract article 12)
- QPOS LCC 319/767 pilots 55 -> 77.5 (contract LOU 74)
- QPOS NB CAs or year 5+ FO 55 -> 80 (737 MOA)
- everyone else min DBM = 70 block window 65-71 with MRG 65 (contract)
So mostly everyone would have got more with a No vote, except fixed rate guys who get the same either way, to be clear though pay is not the reason I think No would have been a better result.
