COVID MOA 2

[ZBBYLW]

How does it go? Maybe I have this wrong Tony, no military experience here... You can't go full afterburner all the time over enemy positions or you're going to get shot out of the sky. That's what happened here and it accomplished less than nothing, it sets us back.

It's interesting you mention that. On our first combat sortie over Serbia, I saved my inexperienced wingman's life, by yelling at him over the radio to get out of burner, as every swinging dick on the ground could see him, with 40 ft of blue flame behind him and they were shooting at him with 57mm HEI AAA. I don't wish that experience on any of you, but sometimes you have to yell at people to get their attention. I'M YELLING AT YOU, altiplano. Wake up!

Tony, ever thought people are trying to tell you that maybe it's you right now parked in full AB? You have incredible drive and determination and if you tried to play somewhat respectfully (not even nice) you may have had a real opportunity to enact change. Instead everyone has their targets on you and you're not able to focus on your mission.

[Dry Guy]

Do you sometimes wake up yelling?

[altiplano]

How does it go? Maybe I have this wrong Tony, no military experience here... You can't go full afterburner all the time over enemy positions or you're going to get shot out of the sky. That's what happened here and it accomplished less than nothing, it sets us back.

It's interesting you mention that. On our first combat sortie over Serbia, I saved my inexperienced wingman's life, by yelling at him over the radio to get out of burner, as every swinging dick on the ground could see him, with 40 ft of blue flame behind him and they were shooting at him with 57mm HEI AAA. I don't wish that experience on any of you, but sometimes you have to yell at people to get their attention. I'M YELLING AT YOU, altiplano. Wake up!

That's my point. Except it's everyone yelling at you to get out of burner because you're getting shot at and the message is getting damaged.

You haven't snapped the membership out of their apathy towards their association, in fact you've only succeeded in enablimg your detractors.

You need to change tack Tony. Consistent, clear, calm, reasoned, and respectful messaging is what people need to here. Tell people what's going on plainly. Not with cryptic posts or conspiracy bullshit or petty mudslinging.

[Lance rose]

Tony won't listen . He's to busy costing the Association 100s of thousands in dealing with his temper tantrum all the while pilots are on furlough driving uber to make ends meet. He's got money coming in his bank account , won't take ERIP to save a job, no skin in the game anymore other than to talk about after burners wile he actually never saw combat.

[PostmasterGeneral]

I kinda sorta see where Tony is coming from. Maybe the approach isn’t the most tactful, but the message he’s trying to deliver is sound. I’m one of the 600. I no longer have a voice. At least he seems to have my interests somewhat in mind, unlike ACPA. “What have they done for me lately?”

[Rupert.Pupkin]

I kinda sorta see where Tony is coming from. Maybe the approach isn’t the most tactful, but the message he’s trying to deliver is sound. I’m one of the 600. I no longer have a voice. At least he seems to have my interests somewhat in mind, unlike ACPA. “What have they done for me lately?”

What has he done that has been productive lately? What has he done for the 600?

[Johnny767]

From what I have seen, Tony is the ONLY MEC member fighting for the junior Pilots. He tried hard to get some traction on getting all Pilots on the DB plan, ask yourself why T.F. would the entire MEC not champion that issue?

The fact that the layoffs have been capped at 600 is thanks to Flight Ops Management, no thanks to ACPA. The two MOU's were written by managment, only thing ACPA did was facilitate the vote.

[RippleRock]

I seriously have to laugh now. The TransAT deal is now as good as done.

Timing sound funny? You guys just voted yes to an "open ended" Scope let.

None of you who voted yes in support of the 600 layed-off, or for your 75 hour flat-pay salary will be working any time soon. You just voted every TransAt pilot hired before you onto our list above you as well.

You let the Genie out of the lamp. Told ya so.

[Thorjones]

I seriously have to laugh now. The TransAT deal is now as good as done.

Timing sound funny? You guys just voted yes to an "open ended" Scope let.

None of you who voted yes in support of the 600 layed-off, or for your 75 hour flat-pay salary will be working any time soon. You just voted every TransAt pilot hired before you onto our list above you as well.

You let the Genie out of the lamp. Told ya so.

Show me where in the moa you see that it allowed this (yet to be approved) renegotiated acquisition happen?

[RippleRock]

The TransAt merger completely shifts the paradigm. The goal post have moved. They can use TransAt to do AC coded flying.

Just because it isn't obvious doesn't mean it isn't there. Did you read the MOU? It doesn't matter anyway, ACPA can grieve it if they don't like it.

The bottom third of the list just got the shaft. The timing is perfect, and not two weeks into the new MOU.

You bottom third "YES" voters just got sucker punched. Enjoy.


FWIW now, Why would you guys even allow a vote to begin with when there was an outstanding Scope grievance?


For the record, I voted "hell NO"

[bcflyer]

The TransAt merger completely shifts the paradigm. The goal post have moved. They can use TransAt to do AC coded flying.

Just because it isn't obvious doesn't mean it isn't there. Did you read the MOU? It doesn't matter anyway, ACPA can grieve it if they don't like it.

The bottom third of the list just got the shaft. The timing is perfect, and not two weeks into the new MOU.

You bottom third "YES" voters just got sucker punched. Enjoy.


FWIW now, Why would you guys even allow a vote to begin with when there was an outstanding Scope grievance?


For the record, I voted "hell NO"

HUGE +1 from a fellow “hell NO” voter. (Most yes voters stopped reading before they got to the part that gives away scope..)

[a220hereicome]

Just because it isn't obvious doesn't mean it isn't there.

Right...

And Justin Trudeau is under house arrest by the CIA.

And lawyers on Bay Street are all in on the conspiracy, and they fake their credentials. The corruption goes straight to the top!

Think about it!

[RippleRock]

Just because it isn't obvious doesn't mean it isn't there.

Right...

And Justin Trudeau is under house arrest by the CIA.

And lawyers on Bay Street are all in on the conspiracy, and they fake their credentials. The corruption goes straight to the top!

Think about it!

No conspiracy here. Watch. The bottom guys at AC won't be recalled now until 2024.

Quote me.


FWIW, You NEVER vote yes to an open ended Scope let. Ever.
It is there to protect your work. What do you have now? Nothing.

ACPA can grieve and cry and do whatever. It will fall on deaf ears because the Membership voted YES.

[RippleRock]

Just because it isn't obvious doesn't mean it isn't there.

Right...

And Justin Trudeau is under house arrest by the CIA.

And lawyers on Bay Street are all in on the conspiracy, and they fake their credentials. The corruption goes straight to the top!

Think about it!

No conspiracy here. Watch. The bottom guys at AC won't be recalled now until 2024.

Quote me.


FWIW, You NEVER vote yes to an open ended Scope let. Ever.
It is there to protect your work. What do you have now? Nothing. ALWAYS stick to the contract in tough times. It is there to protect us.

ACPA can grieve and cry and do whatever. It will fall on deaf ears because the Membership voted YES.

[a220hereicome]

Just because it isn't obvious doesn't mean it isn't there.

Right...

And Justin Trudeau is under house arrest by the CIA.

And lawyers on Bay Street are all in on the conspiracy, and they fake their credentials. The corruption goes straight to the top!

Think about it!

No conspiracy here. Watch. The bottom guys at AC won't be recalled now until 2024.

Quote me.


FWIW, You NEVER vote yes to an open ended Scope let. Ever.
It is there to protect your work. What do you have now? Nothing.

ACPA can grieve and cry and do whatever. It will fall on deaf ears because the Membership voted YES.

You’re right. The membership voted yes, overwhelmingly (82% yes) and en masse (89% turnout). It says a lot about the silent majority. It also puts into perspective the dozen or so air horns on the forums that scream at volume 11. Conspiracy this, corruption that.

Maybe a lot of the members who voted yes actually read the MOA, and watched the webinar. A six or twelve month let on scope during the COVID crisis, yes. The reasons given made sense to me. Without prejudice, so when the MOA dies, so does the let on scope. The sky is falling!

TD

[planebored]

It's not open ended.

Even if the MEC doesn't change between now and March, and I'm pretty sure it will... those currently in power won't renew an MOA if there is a clear advantage for AT flying of some sort under the AC name.

I dislike many of them on the MEC but even they won't stoop that low.

[RippleRock]

Right...

And Justin Trudeau is under house arrest by the CIA.

And lawyers on Bay Street are all in on the conspiracy, and they fake their credentials. The corruption goes straight to the top!

Think about it!

No conspiracy here. Watch. The bottom guys at AC won't be recalled now until 2024.

Quote me.


FWIW, You NEVER vote yes to an open ended Scope let. Ever.
It is there to protect your work. What do you have now? Nothing.

ACPA can grieve and cry and do whatever. It will fall on deaf ears because the Membership voted YES.

You’re right. The membership voted yes, overwhelmingly (82% yes) and en masse (89% turnout). It says a lot about the silent majority. It also puts into perspective the dozen or so air horns on the forums that scream at volume 11. Conspiracy this, corruption that.

Maybe a lot of the members who voted yes actually read the MOA, and watched the webinar. A six or twelve month let on scope during the COVID crisis, yes. The reasons given made sense to me. Without prejudice, so when the MOA dies, so does the let on scope. The sky is falling!

TD

The Membership voted yes to:

1) The elimination of LCC ratios

2) Waved goodbye to the 900 hour yearly min.

3) Gave their blessing to extend the MOA without restriction and WITHOUT Membership input indefinitely.

Sorry. We lose. No "conspiracy" here. Flt Ops can deploy the TranAt fleet over the medium term (years) at their whim, while ACPA has 600 guys on the street. If "market forces" are claimed, we have ZERO recourse. Don't expect the MOU to end magically in 6 months, Covid isn't going anywhere in the forseeable future (too many anti-vaxers).

If anyone claims "why would they have guys sitting around making money for doing nothing", then they have no clue how an airline runs. It doesn't revolve around pilot payroll. (That's why donating a huge chunk of it means squat)

Please tell me you guys read and understood what you voted for before veering off contract. (our ONLY protection BTW)

Great work.

[a220hereicome]

Don't expect the MOU to end magically in 6 months, Covid isn't going anywhere in the forseeable future (too many anti-vaxers).

I don’t expect the MOA to end magically in 6 months.

I expect it to end in six months because that’s the expiration date written in the MOA. That’s what expiration dates mean, last time I checked.

If ACPA renegotiates an extension, or the Company walks away from the MOA and we revert back to the regular contract, then we’ll see what that looks like in six months time. I personally think the MOA looks a lot better than what’s behind door number 2 in the present environment.

The membership voted yes to:

1) The elimination of LCC ratios

We haven’t “eliminated” anything. We’ve suspended these ratios for 6 months. Once again, the reasons for doing this as explained in the webinar made sense to me.

Yes, I do think you’re talking conspiracy and you’re delusional. Just because you sign a ‘without prejudice’ 6 or 12 month MOA doesn’t mean you’ve torn up your scope protections for the rest of your career. Same Chicken Little crowd who said AC rouge would grow to 200 airplanes in 2017.

[RippleRock]

Don't expect the MOU to end magically in 6 months, Covid isn't going anywhere in the forseeable future (too many anti-vaxers).

I don’t expect the MOA to end magically in 6 months.

I expect it to end in six months because that’s the expiration date written in the MOA. That’s what expiration dates mean, last time I checked.

If ACPA renegotiates an extension, or the Company walks away from the MOA and we revert back to the regular contract, then we’ll see what that looks like in six months time. I personally think the MOA looks a lot better than what’s behind door number 2 in the present environment.

And yes, I do think you’re talking conspiracy and you’re delusional. Just because you sign a ‘without prejudice’ 6 or 12 month MOA doesn’t mean you’ve torn up your scope protections for the rest of your career.

If you are still confused about the "go-forward" plan, read Calin's message today about AC's intent with regard to TransAt.

Welcome the the world of limited Scope protection. Judging from your handle, I've likely been around a lot longer than you, seen how ACPA operates, and seen first hand what Scope deterioration does.

Expect further grievances to be filed, and ignored. This MOA will not end in March in it's entirety.

[RippleRock]

I don't think there is any point to debating the direction we are taking. The lid is off the Scope bottle for the forseeable future. How that works out for us, or doesn't, is yet to be determined. Not one of us can do a thing about it now.

The good news is that we have an expert at the helm, and AC will emerge from this. Wether or not there is lasting damage to Article 1 is also yet to be determined. What is certain is that ACPA pilots have voted 83% in favour that they are willing to be "flexible" on what the "definition of their work is". This is not good, and WILL be used against us. The news that TransAt will be deployed to assist AC in its recovery is also NOT good news for our junior Membership.

Welcome to all the TransAt employees. We must focus on getting the lists merged ASAP, so the whip-sawing will be minimal. I sincerely hope ACPA has it's ducks in a row in that regard.

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

It's not open ended.

Even if the MEC doesn't change between now and March, and I'm pretty sure it will... those currently in power won't renew an MOA if there is a clear advantage for AT flying of some sort under the AC name.

I dislike many of them on the MEC but even they won't stoop that low.

You just have to look at ACPA’s track record of ‘top drawer letters’ ‘last chips on the table’ and other empty promises combined with attitudes like the former YYZ LEC Chair of “we need to go to the corporate box at the ACC because that’s how we influence mgmt.” to see that indeed they will stoop to that sort of level.

“Never underestimate the other guys greed,” as well as how motivated some of these individuals are to never fly as a line pilot again.

Jimmy

[tony ledsham]

How does it go? Maybe I have this wrong Tony, no military experience here... You can't go full afterburner all the time over enemy positions or you're going to get shot out of the sky. That's what happened here and it accomplished less than nothing, it sets us back.

It's interesting you mention that. On our first combat sortie over Serbia, I saved my inexperienced wingman's life, by yelling at him over the radio to get out of burner, as every swinging dick on the ground could see him, with 40 ft of blue flame behind him and they were shooting at him with 57mm HEI AAA. I don't wish that experience on any of you, but sometimes you have to yell at people to get their attention. I'M YELLING AT YOU, altiplano. Wake up!

That's my point. Except it's everyone yelling at you to get out of burner because you're getting shot at and the message is getting damaged.

You haven't snapped the membership out of their apathy towards their association, in fact you've only succeeded in enablimg your detractors.

You need to change tack Tony. Consistent, clear, calm, reasoned, and respectful messaging is what people need to here. Tell people what's going on plainly. Not with cryptic posts or conspiracy bullshit or petty mudslinging.

Oh, but I have altiplano, or whatever your real name is. There are no conspiracy theories. I am a member of the ACPA MEC. That is insider information and I hove divulged it, and transparently.

[altiplano]

It's interesting you mention that. On our first combat sortie over Serbia, I saved my inexperienced wingman's life, by yelling at him over the radio to get out of burner, as every swinging dick on the ground could see him, with 40 ft of blue flame behind him and they were shooting at him with 57mm HEI AAA. I don't wish that experience on any of you, but sometimes you have to yell at people to get their attention. I'M YELLING AT YOU, altiplano. Wake up!

That's my point. Except it's everyone yelling at you to get out of burner because you're getting shot at and the message is getting damaged.

You haven't snapped the membership out of their apathy towards their association, in fact you've only succeeded in enablimg your detractors.

You need to change tack Tony. Consistent, clear, calm, reasoned, and respectful messaging is what people need to here. Tell people what's going on plainly. Not with cryptic posts or conspiracy bullshit or petty mudslinging.

Oh, but I have altiplano, or whatever your real name is. There are no conspiracy theories. I am a member of the ACPA MEC. That is insider information and I hove divulged it, and transparently.

And what was it that you think you divulged? MM might be a prick and run a shitty zoom meeting, maybe he's out of order at times, but I don't see any smoking guns there.

Good luck Tony, I'd like to see you recover from the direction you have taken, I feel like you could have really achieved something with a different approach.

Fucking politics...

[RippleRock]

"...achieved something with a different approach...."

I couldn't agree more.

A more subtle approach would have taken longer, but been far more effective and helpful. Going in and trying to single-handedly "carpetbomb" ACPA wasn't going to achieve anything other than polarize the Membership. Sadly, he lost a great deal of support.

Attacking the "lotto thread" was a bad idea. No friends made there. I mean, why can't guys and gals have a "lotto thread"? There was no harm.

A more calculated, indirect approach to taking out the "colluders" that have been in ACPA way too long would have been much more effective. He could have helped the young blood, those with a long term investment, replace the dead wood. Volunteer on committees, insert himself into the inner-workings of the union on as many levels as he could to infulence a paradigm shift from within.

Anyway, it is what it is. Given the current train-wreck that is ACPA, no one was more dedicated to the necessity of change, myself included. At least he leapt out of the trench and tried to do something about it. Unlike nearly all of us.

[alkaseltzer]

Why do so many people think he needs medical help? A higher level of judgment maybe, but actual medical assistance?

On a scale of 1 to Lubitz...not fair...okay, 1 to Sullenberger...?

Calin should invest in sanity tests post-pandemic. More productivity = higher profit sharing.

And planebored, point taken. Yes I was referring to him, I mentioned the initials, TL.

Didn't click when I read over that.. whoops

In light of reading a recent avherald report on the Germanwings crash, I would like to take back my comparison of TL to Lubitz. It appears the investigation was completely botched and not pre-meditated as we were lead to believe in the media.

I apologize for the comparison.