Appologies

[DHC-1 Jockey]

So what exactly do the AC pilots want the Jazz/Sky "scabs" to do? Fall on their swords and not do the regional flying? Have the Jazz/Sky pilots get laid off and you instead get trained on the DH8 and RJ to do these regional flights because "AC owns the flying?"

Again, this is flying into airports that AC aircraft either cannot do or are routes that cannot be done economically with mainline equipment, so what is your specific request of the Jazz and Sky pilots regarding scope?

[goleafsgo]

How would the blame even fall onto the express pilots? AC decides which flights will be operated by express and sends that info out to the express carriers who can then make pairings and figure out crewing requirements from there. Pilots just fly the flights they are scheduled

[Ratherbe]

Irony is so ironic.

MM and TL were responsible for leading us into FOS where we lost hundreds of millions of dollars and all the E175 jobs.

He just pandering to his base. Ignore him and he'll go away like the other guy did.

[planebored]

So what exactly do the AC pilots want the Jazz/Sky "scabs" to do?

Don't worry based on pretty much every conversation I've had today about this with a number of other AC pilots, no one thinks this.

This is a letter from Mike McKay, and a few of his cronies on the MEC. It doesn't speak for me and I know many others.

[rxl]

Irony is so ironic.

MM and TL were responsible for leading us into FOS where we lost hundreds of millions of dollars and all the E175 jobs.

He just pandering to his base. Ignore him and he'll go away like the other guy did.

... and hypocrisy is so hypocritical.
Now they are worried about scope??
How did Express pilots pilots end up in the E175’s in the first place?

[TFTMB heavy]

Can someone post the letter?

[Torontomaplelaughs]

.

[Fanblade]

Can someone post the letter?

They are trying to create ACPA/ALPA conflict because of the ALPA threat from within mainline ranks. These are the same people that created conflict during the last ALPA elections and then used that and Transat as an excuse to walk away from ALPA.

So I won’t participate by posting it. However when you do read it, because it will eventually be everywhere, remember who wrote it and why. Hopefully we deal a blow to these people during current elections.

[alkaseltzer]

I didn't read it as accusatory or vilifying ALPA/ALPA pilots, but maybe that's just because of my disposition. I can see how someone might read it that way and MM no doubt wants to . stones in front of the membership given the politics at play with elections currently underway in 3 bases.

Either way though, taking all possible avenues to put pressure from all sides on the company to stop the scope violation is reasonable.

I realize express guys are likely unaware and just going to work, but now they know they are doing someone else's work, they may not care, but at least they've been notified and can reconcile that however they wish.

You think the express pilots feel bad for AC pilots work when the AC pilots created this mess in the first place? They’re probably laughing and looking at this through the scope that if AC wants to exploit their wages and working conditions to then maybe pfo them after 4 years of loyal, hard work, good training records and attitudes, it’s easy for the express pilots to let that chip on their shoulder play out with a bit of a F U mentality in an instance like this.

Not that I have a dog in that fight, but try to understand why express pilots might not give a F given this mess was an ACPA mess to begin with.

Good luck ac pilots, you’ve created quite the mess for yourselves especially with the ts announcement this morning.

What Kills me is that most of the guy's griping came from express within the last 3 years. Seems to be some are forgetting where they came from and can't even see it from a different perspective

Ironic that his MM's son drew number 1 seniority in his PIT course. Or so I heard.

[Ratherbe]

"How did Express pilots pilots end up in the E175’s in the first place?"

During the Final Offer Selection arbitration in 2012, NC2, which MM and TL were part of, lost the E175's from the original scope language that had been negotiated in TA1.

[Arnie Pye]

So, as far as I see it:

Option 1 - Have ACPA pilots operate YYZ-YGK in a 319 with 5 pax. Take 20 pax to LGA in a 777. This should put the maximum number of ACPA pilots and innumerable flight attendants back to work ASAP at least until the company becomes insolvent.

Option 2 - Have AC rip up the express contracts making Russ and Corus very wealthy overnight. Purchase the E175's, CRJ's and Q400's appropriate to the routes they are to be flown on and retrain ACPA pilots to fly them. Should be able to do this in about 6 months or so, just in time for the spring/summer flying. New aircraft types would mean new pay scales and I'm sure AC will want to keep paying it's pilots the same rate to fly a 320 as they would a Dash-8 100.

Option 3 - Have AC buy back Jazz and purchase SKY. Staple all of those pilots to the BOTL, lay them off and let "real" ACPA pilots retrain on the express aircraft. I Can't see why a 787 cruise relief pilot would not want to go from sleeping in the bunk once a month to operating 5 legs a day, 4 days in a row doing feeder work back and forth from Calgary to Prince George on min rest.

The way I see it, we are ALL in survival mode. Any of the options above will cost AC a ton of money. The survival of the company (yours and mine) is at stake and what ever option costs less should be the way to go. God knows the government is going to do SFA to help the airlines out so we should be focused on keeping costs to a minimum and at keeping as many pilots in their seats as possible. You might not like the medicine but it's better than the disease.

For clarity, I am one of the 60% of laid off express pilots. I had little intention of going to mainline before this mess. I have even less interest now.

[planebored]

Option 4, ACPA can be flexible with the company in understanding that not all routes can be flown by ML aircraft. And in exchange, all furloughed pilots can have the option of going back on CEWS and accruing YOS. Really any routes that the CRJ900 operates right now over 3 hours could be operated by a A220. How many flights are being operated between Canadian hubs that were flown by ML aircraft before this? YYZ-YXE, YVR-YWG etc. Sometimes multiple trips a day on the CRJ.

[planebored]

Option 3 - Have AC buy back Jazz and purchase SKY. Staple all of those pilots to the BOTL, lay them off and let "real" ACPA pilots retrain on the express aircraft. I Can't see why a 787 cruise relief pilot would not want to go from sleeping in the bunk once a month to operating 5 legs a day, 4 days in a row doing feeder work back and forth from Calgary to Prince George on min rest.

Just to be clear, before AC that's exactly what I did. For around $100k a year, and if I was laid off from AC I would happily do the same again.

In fact I don't think I know that many people at ML who are in the lower regions of the seniority list who WOULDN'T be happy to go back into the left seat of a Q or RJ, the job they once did.

Q and RJ flying was given away years ago by old AC pilots who thought they were "too good" to fly these planes. That is not exactly the thoughts of many AC pilots any longer, and the demographic has shifted completely. I'm sure that RP making $55k a year would happily fly a Q400 for 5+ legs a day for $100k if AC seniority number was attached to the job.

[rudder]

Just to be clear, do people understand that resigning one seniority number for another seniority number comes with risks?

Until we come up with a better system, each pilot will have to live with the consequences of their choices, even when a completely unpredictable event happens.

The biggest threat to an AC pilot recall, or career progression, is not an Express pilot on his 76/78 seat aircraft. It is the 680 pilots that are about to be merged in to the AC pilot list during the worst downturn in aviation history. That sword has been hanging over the heads of the AC pilots since summer 2019.

[AA123455]

Just to be clear friends. AC DOES own Jazz, a %10 stake.

A win for Chorus is a %10 win for AC.

[Johnny767]

Who makes this stuff??


https://youtu.be/_ovLvkzQd9k

Best one yet, likely the same guy who did the earlier ones with the cartoon characters? Funniest part is outing the two retired guys babbling on about folding bikes and governance.

[ZBBYLW]

Agreed. I am sorry for MMs action. He is speaking on half of himself.

Jazz pilots or Sky pilots should not put their careers in jeopardy because ACPA is too afraid to grow a set of balls and demand our pilots do anything about it.

This letter seems overly political. Perhaps MM is afraid of the boys and girls at P4C?

[planebored]

This letter seems overly political. Perhaps MM is afraid of the boys and girls at P4C?

MM sees the days of full time flight release coming to an end. This is him gasping for a last breath.

Wednesday is the day we'll find out what the future of our association will be. I know who I'm rooting for.

Other than a few management shills on Slack, many across the seniority list have expressed disappointment in that letter. In fact it may be the most unifying thing across all pilots in a while, just not how MM intended.

[PostmasterGeneral]

MM certainly does not speak for me, nor do I endorse his bullshit letter. The issue here is between ACPA and the company for scope grievance. Jazz is doing the flying they’re told to do by AC.

He should be embarrassed for having even written that. Maybe if the MEC actually took it up with the company instead of scapegoating everywhere else, we’d see a real result. Maybe they don’t want to jeopardize their access to the private box at the ACC?

As one of the 600, I am genuinely worried now about how this AT merger is going to go under the leadershit (not a typo) of this current MEC. Should I just kiss my chance of a recall goodbye completely?

[Johnny767]

You should be worried, but you think P4C is the answer? ACPA better get their house in order in a hurry and get some seriously experienced Merger help. It is out their within our ranks, definitely NOT within the P4C crowd.

[planebored]

You should be worried, but you think P4C is the answer? ACPA better get their house in order in a hurry and get some seriously experienced Merger help. It is out their within our ranks, definitely NOT within the P4C crowd.

Sounds like you don't understand what P4C actually is or what they're trying to do.

[Johnny767]

I understand perfectly well, a bloodless coup of the Association! Just what you need prior to a complicated Seniority Integration.

[Fanblade]

I understand perfectly well, a bloodless coup of the Association! Just what you need prior to a complicated Seniority Integration.

There ya go. Just waiting for the fear mongering to go there. Targeted directly at the most junior. Because you know full well the merger will force a representation vote. So you try to scare them by threatening their future more than it is now. Nice.

It will have zero impact on seniority integration. Zero. In fact if we are all the same bargaining unit it ties ALPA’s hands in many ways. They will likely sit back and watch rather than take sides.

As it stands now. Transat will probably eat our lunch with ALPA’s support. Remember the last time it was ACPA vs ALPA in a seniority integration? The Canadian merger? It ended with an 8:1 ratio in the bottom 25% of the list. That’s right the bottom of the list was 82% ACPA pilots. Remember our RP status was very problematic for us in front of an arbitrator. It took a decade for the hostility to subside.

No one should have faith that ACPA can actually support Air Canada pilots against the resources of ALPA during seniority integration.

[Fanblade]

As one of the 600, I am genuinely worried now about how this AT merger is going to go under the leadershit (not a typo) of this current MEC. Should I just kiss my chance of a recall goodbye completely?

This will pass.

2003. 911 two years earlier. SARS the year after. Then CCAA. The seniority integration with Canadian placed me near the bottom in the 8:1 ratio. Lost my base. Lost my aircraft type. Between cuts from CCAA and a lower paying aircraft type a 60% pay cut. I didn’t get furloughed but was close. Sold the house and rented at new base.

By 2008 I was an EMJ CA.

Stay positive. Limit the mental time you spend worrying about it. It will work out.

[planebored]

I understand perfectly well, a bloodless coup of the Association! Just what you need prior to a complicated Seniority Integration.

Clearly you don't.