AC and TRZ Agree to Terminate Arrangement

[Fanblade]

Career Expectations, number of widebody positions, base, age, salary etc.... all these are taken into account.
Whoever says otherwise didn't read up on, Virgin v. Alaska, United V. Continental or especially Northwest v. Delta!!

Yes all of those factors exist within Canadian jurisprudence on mergers with the exclusion of career expectations. Salary was cast aside as irrelevant 17 years ago.

Do you have any Canadian jurisprudence on career expectations? I haven’t seen it. 17 years ago we were told expectations vaporized on merger. Those expectations that did exist are only near term. Expectations become more and more irrelevant the longer the timeline or juniority on the individual.

The US is far more capitalist in its approach. Always has been. I acknowledge the US has started moving in that direction.

If a group is able to introduce career expectations and have a Canadian arbitrator work with it, it will be a first. You live in Canada and our attitudes towards you lost, back of the line is not the same.

An arbitrator uses a snapshot in time to make their decisions. At this moment, what are anyone’s expectations other than hopefully dodging CCAA?

Calin for his part has stated that Transat must match AC’s staff reductions. Right out of the CEO’s mouth. Equal expectations.

[FL-280]

What the CEO says what ends up happening between two unionized groups is two different things. I remain confident, TS pilots will have some sort of penalty on their DOH through a premium ratio applied to AC pilots.

[Fanblade]

What the CEO says what ends up happening between two unionized groups is two different things. I remain confident, TS pilots will have some sort of penalty on their DOH through a premium ratio applied to AC pilots.

You will find that what the CEO says does matter. The reason is it speaks to the owners intentions. If the owners intentions were to liquidate it would matter. He just stated I bought Transat and my intentions for their employees is the same as for AC employees.

Of course this merger won’t be DOH. It CAN’T because we (AC) don’t have a DOH list. My point is don’t focus on things that are irrelevant.

Jurisprudence says they will be spread across our list based on groupings. There will be an in-depth look at which aircraft are grouped together. Then how many positions exist on each side to devise a ratio for that group. If 400 AC pilots and 100 Transat pilots are found to be in a group the ratio will be 4:1. The process is methodical. It is not opinion based.

It will be what constitutes a group were the battleground exists.

Do 777 positions get grouped with a 330 positions?

Or are all widebody positions one group? And all narrow body the other group?

Do Rouge and Transat positions get grouped equally with mainline positions?

The thing is. The bottom still ends up at the bottom on both sides.

[rudder]

Arbitrators are not bound by either jurisprudence nor precedent in an interest dispute. They are only bound by the terms of reference of their mandate as provided. Having said that, arbitrators have either seen the issue before or will familiarize themselves with prior awards on similar subject matter (or the parties will do that via their submissions).

I presume that if the parties cannot agree on terms of reference that the CIRB will provide them. Terms of reference is not outcome - it is the process and limits to jurisdiction.

[whipline]

I have no skin in the game. Just read “Air Canada is not date of hire”? How is your list made?

[Cappo1]

Did any AC pilots get the Coles notes with what Calin said . I have them but I'm not posting the screen shot.

I'll start by saying it was very specific its not the same as Canadian and AC merging because an acquisition is a takeover. Arirelle said "it's an ACQUISITION."

He outlined

Quote 1. " time frame can take at LEAST 3 years due to the reduction of ASM over the Atlantic and CV19"

"We will both be smaller "

I am pleased to read that clarification was set regarding structure of employees. No TS pilots altering our seniority lists or taking over our jobs.

Quote 2. " Transat has to take a workforce downsize AT LEAST ( as it was written in all caps) to ours" . And there will be " no more AC layoffs"

I think its clarified no one from TS will be knocking us out of our jobs and off the seniority list and vice versa. I am comparing it to real estate . I buy my house and it does not include the previous tenants.

When TS does downsize, it appears they will be kept separate and that's a good thing for both airlines. They can grow on their own accord and our pilots will retain their status.

[rudder]

Did any AC pilots get the Coles notes with what Calin said . I have them but I'm not posting the screen shot.

I'll start by saying it was very specific its not the same as Canadian and AC merging because an acquisition is a takeover. Arirelle said "it's an ACQUISITION."

He outlined

Quote 1. " time frame can take at LEAST 3 years due to the reduction of ASM over the Atlantic and CV19"

"We will both be smaller "

I am pleased to read that clarification was set regarding structure of employees. No TS pilots altering our seniority lists or taking over our jobs.

Quote 2. " Transat has to take a workforce downsize AT LEAST ( as it was written in all caps) to ours" . And there will be " no more AC layoffs"

I think its clarified no one from TS will be knocking us out of our jobs and off the seniority list and vice versa. I am comparing it to real estate . I buy my house and it does not include the previous tenants.

When TS does downsize, it appears they will be kept separate and that's a good thing for both airlines. They can grow on their own accord and our pilots will retain their status.

Except the ACPA contract says 1 list. Perhaps ACPA will waive that? Unlikely.

And, if separate, who flies YYZ-CUN? Or YUL-CDG? These are all overlapped routes. And as you said, everything is downsizing.

I have never seen a pilot group with a meaningful scope clause that would say that it is ok to acquire another carrier and operate it separately based on trust. There is way more substance to Article 1 than that.

I think that once the parties (meaning ACPA and AC) exhaust discussions regarding the ‘acquisition’ that TS will be the new Rouge/LCC. And there will be just one list and one contract.

[TFTMB heavy]

Did any AC pilots get the Coles notes with what Calin said . I have them but I'm not posting the screen shot.

I'll start by saying it was very specific its not the same as Canadian and AC merging because an acquisition is a takeover. Arirelle said "it's an ACQUISITION."

He outlined

Quote 1. " time frame can take at LEAST 3 years due to the reduction of ASM over the Atlantic and CV19"

"We will both be smaller "

I am pleased to read that clarification was set regarding structure of employees. No TS pilots altering our seniority lists or taking over our jobs.

Quote 2. " Transat has to take a workforce downsize AT LEAST ( as it was written in all caps) to ours" . And there will be " no more AC layoffs"

I think its clarified no one from TS will be knocking us out of our jobs and off the seniority list and vice versa. I am comparing it to real estate . I buy my house and it does not include the previous tenants.

When TS does downsize, it appears they will be kept separate and that's a good thing for both airlines. They can grow on their own accord and our pilots will retain their status.

In regards to Quote 2: TS workforce is considerably reduced compared to AC.

[FL320]

Did any AC pilots get the Coles notes with what Calin said . I have them but I'm not posting the screen shot.

I'll start by saying it was very specific its not the same as Canadian and AC merging because an acquisition is a takeover. Arirelle said "it's an ACQUISITION."

He outlined

Quote 1. " time frame can take at LEAST 3 years due to the reduction of ASM over the Atlantic and CV19"

"We will both be smaller "

I am pleased to read that clarification was set regarding structure of employees. No TS pilots altering our seniority lists or taking over our jobs.

Quote 2. " Transat has to take a workforce downsize AT LEAST ( as it was written in all caps) to ours" . And there will be " no more AC layoffs"

I think its clarified no one from TS will be knocking us out of our jobs and off the seniority list and vice versa. I am comparing it to real estate . I buy my house and it does not include the previous tenants.

When TS does downsize, it appears they will be kept separate and that's a good thing for both airlines. They can grow on their own accord and our pilots will retain their status.

In regards to Quote 2: TS workforce is considerably reduced compared to AC.

Lol that’s what I thought too. Pretty good news Cappo1, AT can call back more people (even better if it’s written in caps!)
Can you send the screenshot so our strong union can negotiate with the company?

[milhouse]

Did any AC pilots get the Coles notes with what Calin said . I have them but I'm not posting the screen shot.

I'll start by saying it was very specific its not the same as Canadian and AC merging because an acquisition is a takeover. Arirelle said "it's an ACQUISITION."

He outlined

Quote 1. " time frame can take at LEAST 3 years due to the reduction of ASM over the Atlantic and CV19"

"We will both be smaller "

I am pleased to read that clarification was set regarding structure of employees. No TS pilots altering our seniority lists or taking over our jobs.

Quote 2. " Transat has to take a workforce downsize AT LEAST ( as it was written in all caps) to ours" . And there will be " no more AC layoffs"

I think its clarified no one from TS will be knocking us out of our jobs and off the seniority list and vice versa. I am comparing it to real estate . I buy my house and it does not include the previous tenants.

When TS does downsize, it appears they will be kept separate and that's a good thing for both airlines. They can grow on their own accord and our pilots will retain their status.

How could you possibly think this is good for the AC pilot group? You want to compete for flying with an airline that is cheaper to operate? Wonder where the growth will happen...

The scope clause is there for a reason.

[FL-280]

We should or the arbitrator should figure out exactly how many tails Transat is bringing over. Mike Rousseau clearly said, some trimmimg of the Transat fleet will be required. We can expect the 310s and the 737s are game over.
Figure out how many pilots are required to operate that exact amount of metal at 2019 levels to account for future work. Every pilot junior to that should go bottom of the list at AC, it's only fair.

The pilot group can't be permanently restructured, both the AC and TS CBA won't allow that. Just came out in the media today, TS will have to reduce it's amount of employees before going under the AC umbrella. AC has two main interests in this acquisition, eliminating a competitor for pennies on the dollar and the fleet.

[tsgas]

We should or the arbitrator should figure out exactly how many tails Transat is bringing over. Mike Rousseau clearly said, some trimmimg of the Transat fleet will be required. We can expect the 310s and the 737s are game over.
Figure out how many pilots are required to operate that exact amount of metal at 2019 levels to account for future work. Every pilot junior to that should go bottom of the list at AC, it's only fair.

The pilot group can't be permanently restructured, both the AC and TS CBA won't allow that. Just came out in the media today, TS will have to reduce it's amount of employees before going under the AC umbrella. AC has two main interests in this acquisition, eliminating a competitor for pennies on the dollar and the fleet.

The fleet is all but worthless because it is leased . The value are the landing slots. Transat , left on it's own , would be a very weak and shrinking competitor.

[TFTMB heavy]

We should or the arbitrator should figure out exactly how many tails Transat is bringing over. Mike Rousseau clearly said, some trimmimg of the Transat fleet will be required. We can expect the 310s and the 737s are game over.
Figure out how many pilots are required to operate that exact amount of metal at 2019 levels to account for future work. Every pilot junior to that should go bottom of the list at AC, it's only fair.

The pilot group can't be permanently restructured, both the AC and TS CBA won't allow that. Just came out in the media today, TS will have to reduce it's amount of employees before going under the AC umbrella. AC has two main interests in this acquisition, eliminating a competitor for pennies on the dollar and the fleet.

310s were retired earlier this year and active 737 pilots are all on 320 initials.

TS group has 5000 employees, many are laid off. Air Transat staff is down to crumbs, it would be interesting to see the stats on layoffs per department in both companies.

[columbia]

We should or the arbitrator should figure out exactly how many tails Transat is bringing over. Mike Rousseau clearly said, some trimmimg of the Transat fleet will be required. We can expect the 310s and the 737s are game over.
Figure out how many pilots are required to operate that exact amount of metal at 2019 levels to account for future work. Every pilot junior to that should go bottom of the list at AC, it's only fair.

The pilot group can't be permanently restructured, both the AC and TS CBA won't allow that. Just came out in the media today, TS will have to reduce it's amount of employees before going under the AC umbrella. AC has two main interests in this acquisition, eliminating a competitor for pennies on the dollar and the fleet.

Enough with your fantasies. When Canadian merged with AC, a couple of 737 and 14 of Canadian's DC-10s were retired by AC. Yet nobody was put bottom of the list.

[FL320]

Fleet requested: 12 A330/15 A321LR

[Air.Field]

https://montrealgazette.com/business/lo ... or-transat

Péladeau says he’s 'absolutely' still weighing bid for Transat

[Fanblade]

I'll start by saying it was very specific its not the same as Canadian and AC merging because an acquisition is a takeover. Arirelle said "it's an ACQUISITION."

I watched the townhall and did not interpret the comments the way you did.

Air Canada bought Canadian Airlines for 90 million if memory serves me correctly. Air Canada acquired Canadian in a weak state just like Air Canada is acquiring air Transat in a weak state. They are similar.

Highly unlikely ACPA would agree to let Transat pilots operate on behalf of Air Canada without being on the ACPA seniority list. That is the cornerstone of job protection.

As Rudder stated. The likely end result is two operating brands. Two operating OC’s. One list. Fences limiting movement between the two maybe erected for a time. But they are always temporary

[rudder]

Fleet requested: 12 A330/15 A321LR

Which 8 330’s will TS be getting rid of? -200’s? - 300’s?

Are any 330 leases expiring in 2021?

[FL-280]

27 Tails X 9 full crews per tail is 486 pilots. Transat is bringing work for 486 pilots but is showing up on the property with 650-680... Tell me how those 200 pilots that are extra shouldn't go BOTL? Tell me how that is fantasy? This isn't an extreme propisition, it's only fair to both parties.

[TFTMB heavy]

27 Tails X 9 full crews per tail is 486 pilots. Transat is bringing work for 486 pilots but is showing up on the property with 650-680... Tell me how those 200 pilots that are extra shouldn't go BOTL? Tell me how that is fantasy? This isn't an extreme propisition, it's only fair to both parties.

The new duty regs will require more than 486 pilots, reserve will eat up a lot of crews as voluntary overtime will be almost impossible. How many crews is AC operating per tail? There are many inactive pilots in administrative roles and some on disability BTW. I expect the TS fleet will recover much quicker than the AC fleet given the leisure market will take off before business travel.

[Monkey_in_a_suit]

With any luck ACPA and ALPA negotiate a whiny bitch clause that will put FL280 at BOTL

[GATRKGA]

With any luck ACPA and ALPA negotiate a whiny bitch clause that will put FL280 at BOTL

Now that's something we can all get behind I'm sure. What an entitled piece of shit he's turned since leaving Express. FL280, Your UTOPIA may sound nice and fit in with your entitled views, but everyone will slot in where they are intended to be slotted in.

Let's not start the argument that every, and I mean EVERY TS FO comes over on a pay scale that beats AC out of the water for the first 5 years. If we just assume pay, no way anyone will be going BOTL. Did you see the last agreement they all voted in favour of? They already were paid more than AC FO's, and they already got a raise on top of that. So that means essentially anyone coming in between 400-650 from TS, should by definition of pay scales, slide ahead every person currently holding a number above 3700.

You're starting to see more and more AC pilot's getting behind merging the lists and getting this over with. It's greedy and "mommy told me life is fair" perspective like yours, that @#$! things up for the rest. The COLLECTIVE interest is a merged list, and getting on with our lives. You don't want Leisure rebounding, and you watching TS undercut you so that you NEVER have a job to come to. Right? Pick your battles. Buddy, you won't feel a thing when you look back at this. It's not like 4000 other pilot's are merging in. There are 650 coming, and fatigue rules will make everyone required.

Chill out.

[Johnny767]

With any luck ACPA and ALPA negotiate a whiny bitch clause that will put FL280 at BOTL

Thanks for the laugh! You boys should have seen the graffiti written all over the walls in the flight planning room in YUL during the last merger. Written by a bunch of 5 year olds!

The C-Suite just shakes their heads, thinking we pay these clowns how much?

[FL-280]

I don't consider myself as an entitled piece of shit... we are all just trying to protect or hold on to our careers and career choices. Reading through the old and new ac pilot forums, I would say the proposition or "my crack" at what a merged list would look like is not that bad! A lot of ac pilots think the same way I do, and even some are more extreme.

I understand many pilots have a good amount of years in at TS. I do believe they should be treated fairly. I also believe the bottom 180-200 at TS getting tapped to the bottom is fair. We both have this in comon, we have vetted interest in this happening or not happening. It looks to me the junior TS pilots want the merge to happen but don't want to give up anything for it! What is 3-5 years seniority to be on the flag carrier's list and not have to go through a major time of instability the way you have again? Ask any pilot that was a Canadian Airlines pilot, sure 2-7 years hit on the seniority front sucks but their career was much better afterwards.

I believe this merger could be good, I focus on COULD. After townhall, I think it will create a powerhouse in the leisure and Atlantic market. But at the end of the day, I don't want any junior TS pilot furthering their career at my or any other AC pilots expense.

I look forward for this to be over, we will then be able to focus on doing what we love.

If you want to talk about pay, let's talk about career earnings over a 30 year career. This would account for all levels of seniority and pay steps. AC would win this comparison by 1-2 million $. Again, I ask: What is a certain seniority hit for 1-2 million $ ?

[GATRKGA]

I don't consider myself as an entitled piece of shit... we are all just trying to protect or hold on to our careers and career choices. Reading through the old and new ac pilot forums, I would say the proposition or "my crack" at what a merged list would look like is not that bad! A lot of ac pilots think the same way I do, and even some are more extreme.

I understand many pilots have a good amount of years in at TS. I do believe they should be treated fairly. I also believe the bottom 180-200 at TS getting tapped to the bottom is fair. We both have this in comon, we have vetted interest in this happening or not happening. It looks to me the junior TS pilots want the merge to happen but don't want to give up anything for it! What is 3-5 years seniority to be on the flag carrier's list and not have to go through a major time of instability the way you have again? Ask any pilot that was a Canadian Airlines pilot, sure 2-7 years hit on the seniority front sucks but their career was much better afterwards.

I believe this merger could be good, I focus on COULD. After townhall, I think it will create a powerhouse in the leisure and Atlantic market. But at the end of the day, I don't want any junior TS pilot furthering their career at my or any other AC pilots expense.

I look forward for this to be over, we will then be able to focus on doing what we love.

If you want to talk about pay, let's talk about career earnings over a 30 year career. This would account for all levels of seniority and pay steps. AC would win this comparison by 1-2 million $. Again, I ask: What is a certain seniority hit for 1-2 million $ ?

You make some good points FL280, no doubt. But here's where I think you're wrong. You still speak about TS pilot's like they're some second class citizens that should count their lucky stars because Hail Mary saved them. Specifically, what's 3-5 years and not have to go through exactly what? As far as the writing is on the wall, AC pilot's just saved 6 months of furloughs. That's it. The paradox here will be if leisure travel springs back, and all those superior positions you speak of, actually are no longer required at AC to the extent they were. What would that mean for what you're going through right now?

At the end of the day, I don't think there are many TS pilot's that are asking for the moon. But it's a bit discouraging reading your sentiment that somehow a TS pilot is less than an AC pilot in the bottom, and for some reason, this warrants your utopic view of how the lists should be merged.

I repeat, since you're just talking about 200 pilot's here, every single one of those TS pilot's deserve to sit in front of you because they decided to choose a career that paid them up front. By that logic, you actually should sit behind them because they didn't scab themselves out for an eventuality (which you called 1-2 million) which is a medical away from being nothing more than a pipe dream.

Just because you decided to sell your soul to the devil and have to pay the price, doesn't mean others do. THIS is what I mean by your entitled viewpoint. It's as if the world is fair was what was taught in your household and this whole situation is triggering the shit out of you.

I really am not looking for a debate with you, because I get the impression working for AC has gone to your head. The reality is neither you, or anyone else knows the outcome. Regardless of how you feel, I promise you there will be a number of TS pilot's ahead of you who have paid more than their dues and are JUST like you, stuck in a collectively shitty situation, called the COVID 19 Pandemic.

The first place you need to start is stop looking at pilot's as branded competition, and start looking as pilot's as pilot's. Otherwise, you're the exact kind of person who will sell out the young to protect his 300k salary at AC, because you had to eat shit in the beginning, and so do the youngins coming in behind the ranks. I hate to say it, but this mindset is exactly what is a contributor to scab's all over the ranks, even if you were "lucky" or "skilled" enough to win the "lottery" to fly the flag.

Good luck dude.