AC and TRZ Agree to Terminate Arrangement

[DanWEC]

With any luck ACPA and ALPA negotiate a whiny bitch clause that will put FL280 at BOTL

HA! Dying!!

[milhouse]

With any luck ACPA and ALPA negotiate a whiny bitch clause that will put FL280 at BOTL

Finally something both groups can agree on!

[Johnny767]

20 years down the road the Canadi>n Pilots are still second class citizens, on a B-Scale pension. Even after an Arbitrator ruled the plans were to come together, ACPA has refused.

Funniest group group were hired in the late 90's, if you were a Dash 8 co-pilot at Air Nova and got hired at AC thanks to LOU 17 & 18 you are a legend in your own mind.

Stand-by for the re-birth of the OAC Sticker.

Keep a sense of humour, you're going to need it.

[TFTMB heavy]

I don't consider myself as an entitled piece of shit...we are all just trying to protect or hold on to our careers and career choices. Reading through the old and new ac pilot forums, I would say the proposition or "my crack" at what a merged list would look like is not that bad! A lot of ac pilots think the same way I do, and even some are more extreme.

I understand many pilots have a good amount of years in at TS. I do believe they should be treated fairly. I also believe the bottom 180-200 at TS getting tapped to the bottom is fair. We both have this in comon, we have vetted interest in this happening or not happening. It looks to me the junior TS pilots want the merge to happen but don't want to give up anything for it! What is 3-5 years seniority to be on the flag carrier's list and not have to go through a major time of instability the way you have again? Ask any pilot that was a Canadian Airlines pilot, sure 2-7 years hit on the seniority front sucks but their career was much better afterwards.

I believe this merger could be good, I focus on COULD. After townhall, I think it will create a powerhouse in the leisure and Atlantic market. But at the end of the day, I don't want any junior TS pilot furthering their career at my or any other AC pilots expense.

I look forward for this to be over, we will then be able to focus on doing what we love.

If you want to talk about pay, let's talk about career earnings over a 30 year career. This would account for all levels of seniority and pay steps. AC would win this comparison by 1-2 million $. Again, I ask: What is a certain seniority hit for 1-2 million $ ?

BTW, the pilot 200 from the bottom at TS has put in almost 4 years,100 from the bottom is 2 years in. They should slide in after the most jr AC pilot?

[DanWEC]

I don't consider myself as an entitled piece of

Ok, but you should question why everyone else does?

The worst episode to ever hit aviation. Guys at AC, Regionals, WJ, SW, TS, are driving Fedex trucks and stocking shelves at Costo. One or two of these companies might fold altogether leaving thousands unemployed, yet you're still complaining about the fleeting possibility of losing a handful of numbers in the short term.

Entitled.

We're all going to end up giving something up here. Once this is all a distant memory in 10 years hopefully someone will have made a plaque commemorating your weeks of lost career progression in the midst of the great pandemic where not a single other soul on the planet had to make a sacrifice. Brave lad.

[FL-280]

BTW, the pilot 200 from the bottom at TS has put in almost 4 years,100 from the bottom is 2 years in. They should slide in after the most jr AC pilot?

Absolutely

[columbia]

BTW, the pilot 200 from the bottom at TS has put in almost 4 years,100 from the bottom is 2 years in. They should slide in after the most jr AC pilot?

Absolutely

Oh well, you’ll be disappointed I guess.

[TheStig]

To put a different spin on this deal, in Spittin' Chiclets parlance, this deal would make AC a WAGON...and its pilots should get PAID. It's easy for everyone to think about what they stand to loose with a merger but there could be a tremendous upside too.

A bunch of leased airplanes aren't worth much but if this deal is approved without restrictions the improvement on yields over the Atlantic alone could be worth $190 million in one summer (albeit probably not Q3 2021). The last decade of profits in the US market were the result of merging a dozen airlines into 5. Just a guesstimate, 95%? of the market from Canada to Europe would be AF/KLM, IAG and AC (and Star Alliance partners), that lack of competition is a dream come true to the commercial side of the operation.

It's easy to see the bad blood growing here, but hopefully the two unions can reach an expedient agreement, get ourselves organized and capitalize on the opportunity as the industry recovers.

[babaganoush]

Oh well, you’ll be disappointed I guess.

Air Transat new hires typically much younger than AC. Pretty easy to get hired at Air Transat at 24 years old with no 705 CA time and in many cases no 705 time. Try that at AC... it happens from time to time but is an anomaly at Air Transat it's a trend..... there absolutely should be considerations with how much longer it takes to get to Air Canada vs Air Transat as a pilot.

[babaganoush]

20 years down the road the Canadi>n Pilots are still second class citizens, on a B-Scale pension. Even after an Arbitrator ruled the plans were to come together, ACPA has refused.

Canadian pilots made out quite well in the merger, well those at the middle and top.

[TFTMB heavy]

To put a different spin on this deal, in Spittin' Chiclets parlance, this deal would make AC a WAGON...and its pilots should get PAID. It's easy for everyone to think about what they stand to loose with a merger but there could be a tremendous upside too.

A bunch of leased airplanes aren't worth much but if this deal is approved without restrictions the improvement on yields over the Atlantic alone could be worth $190 million in one summer (albeit probably not Q3 2021). The last decade of profits in the US market were the result of merging a dozen airlines into 5. Just a guesstimate, 95%? of the market from Canada to Europe would be AF/KLM, IAG and AC (and Star Alliance partners), that lack of competition is a dream come true to the commercial side of the operation.

It's easy to see the bad blood growing here, but hopefully the two unions can reach an expedient agreement, get ourselves organized and capitalize on the opportunity as the industry recovers.

Unfortunately it looks like the restrictions there will be. I'm sure they've had a preview of what's coming and the $5 is partly to help offset the costs associated. That's what I'm assuming anyways, based on what both companies said when the new deal was announced and the EU taking their sweet time.

[altiplano]

Everyone's going to advocate for what's best for their side.

That's a fact.

I think it's funny you guys insult people over it... you don't have to accept it, and it doesn't add up to a hill of beans, but why the insults?

Just like TS guys want to come across as far up the list as they can, AC guys want to stay as far up the list as they can. You tell someone else to roll over, they tell you to roll over, what's the difference?

I know guys will go in ahead of me. I accept that, but I want as few as we can convince an arbitrator is reasonable. You don't like that? Well, maybe I don't like what you're seeking either. So it's an agree to disagree thing and let the arbitrator sort it out scenario.

It's not personal, it's not you're less of a pilot, it's just the way it landed, I would have loved to work at Transat before and I couldn't get hired because I couldn't speak French, so lucky me I got in eventually at AC, maybe it could have been the other way around for any one of us.

So let's just accept that we're all going to try to get as good as we can for ourselves, and not take it personal, and we can turn our gaze to the new CEO and extracting the best we can on a new collective agreement.

[Gulfstream5]

Did any AC pilots get the Coles notes with what Calin said . I have them but I'm not posting the screen shot.

I'll start by saying it was very specific its not the same as Canadian and AC merging because an acquisition is a takeover. Arirelle said "it's an ACQUISITION."

He outlined

Quote 1. " time frame can take at LEAST 3 years due to the reduction of ASM over the Atlantic and CV19"

"We will both be smaller "

I am pleased to read that clarification was set regarding structure of employees. No TS pilots altering our seniority lists or taking over our jobs.

Quote 2. " Transat has to take a workforce downsize AT LEAST ( as it was written in all caps) to ours" . And there will be " no more AC layoffs"

I think its clarified no one from TS will be knocking us out of our jobs and off the seniority list and vice versa. I am comparing it to real estate . I buy my house and it does not include the previous tenants.

When TS does downsize, it appears they will be kept separate and that's a good thing for both airlines. They can grow on their own accord and our pilots will retain their status.

In regards to Quote 2: TS workforce is considerably reduced compared to AC.

Lol that’s what I thought too. Pretty good news Cappo1, AT can call back more people (even better if it’s written in caps!)
Can you send the screenshot so our strong union can negotiate with the company?

Who said anything about pilots and in-flight ? I watched the town hall and as far as I interpreted it and according to my FO this deal will take the aircraft and leave the Transat employees looking for a flying job with purolator. Absolutely correct about there being ONE list, acpa wouldn't have it any other way. From their mouths and not mine , "with so many of our own furloughed and waiting for recalls, AC has no requirement or need to bring on any additional pilots or IFS as the increase in fins can easily be flown by the total amount of AC pilots and any additional ones required with updated flight and duty times can be taken from the pool full of WestJet pilots who are seeing their network shrink"
fl320, you are definately way out in lala land, I recommend getting some more air at FL240 in prop.

[FL320]

.

[TFTMB heavy]

Everyone's going to advocate for what's best for their side.

That's a fact.

I think it's funny you guys insult people over it... you don't have to accept it, and it doesn't add up to a hill of beans, but why the insults?

Just like TS guys want to come across as far up the list as they can, AC guys want to stay as far up the list as they can. You tell someone else to roll over, they tell you to roll over, what's the difference?

I know guys will go in ahead of me. I accept that, but I want as few as we can convince an arbitrator is reasonable. You don't like that? Well, maybe I don't like what you're seeking either. So it's an agree to disagree thing and let the arbitrator sort it out scenario.

It's not personal, it's not you're less of a pilot, it's just the way it landed, I would have loved to work at Transat before and I couldn't get hired because I couldn't speak French, so lucky me I got in eventually at AC, maybe it could have been the other way around for any one of us.

So let's just accept that we're all going to try to get as good as we can for ourselves, and not take it personal, and we can turn our gaze to the new CEO and extracting the best we can on a new collective agreement.

You are right that insults are not required. There are some very good points and arguments made by some, too bad the trolls try to derail conversations.

[milhouse]

In regards to Quote 2: TS workforce is considerably reduced compared to AC.

Lol that’s what I thought too. Pretty good news Cappo1, AT can call back more people (even better if it’s written in caps!)
Can you send the screenshot so our strong union can negotiate with the company?

Who said anything about pilots and in-flight ? I watched the town hall and as far as I interpreted it and according to my FO this deal will take the aircraft and leave the Transat employees looking for a flying job with purolator. Absolutely correct about there being ONE list, acpa wouldn't have it any other way. From their mouths and not mine , "with so many of our own furloughed and waiting for recalls, AC has no requirement or need to bring on any additional pilots or IFS as the increase in fins can easily be flown by the total amount of AC pilots and any additional ones required with updated flight and duty times can be taken from the pool full of WestJet pilots who are seeing their network shrink"
fl320, you are definately way out in lala land, I recommend getting some more air at FL240 in prop.

We must have watched a totally different town hall. You are doing some serious mental gymnastics to get to these conclusions. What we need to do is prepare for an inevitable list merger and get the best result we can get. Being in denial will not accomplish that.

Then again, "my FO" sounds like a super reliable source so what do I know...

[jetpilot]

Together We Stand

[jetpilot]

EDITED.

Doxxing's not cool..

[FL-280]

My dream is you writing a sentence in English with less than 5 errors in it.

[GATRKGA]

My dream is you writing a sentence in English with less than 5 errors in it.

Lol, good one.

Altiplano, finally a statement out of you that’s logical and sound. More of this please. It has been a while.

I agree, merge this shit sooner than later and get it over with so we can get the footage of FL280 and Jetpilot diverting over a disagreement, lol. I have control, no I have control, no I have control, no I have control.

[Kardow]

Wow. Really good CRM over here, can't wait to fly with you guys as well.

As always, some people you will get along, some you won't, some people you will agree with what they are saying, some you won't, but at least everyone deserve a minimum of respect.

I get that this potential seniority list merger brings a lot of emotion and can pull at your heartstrings, but nothing is done yet, nor do we have any control over it for now... let's try to keep it civilized.

[milhouse]

And by the way anyone of you want to make a compain to your respective union below you will find FL280 link i have can prove with Ip and pass employment this si the right guy on FB everybody in Qc hate him is pass co-worker hate him the sory repeat itself let's put a end to it i am
staring a group action for difamation enough is F...... enough !

This is fucked up. FL280 may be a dink but doxxing him is messed up. What if you have the wrong guy. You'll be the one getting sued for defamation. This is exactly the type of toxicity we need to prevent. This is not the road either group should be trying to go down. Delete this garbage.

[FL320]

I know it will please some of you here but my thoughts are for our colleagues (pilots) that are about to lose their job -again!- before Christmas; thanks to Air Canada (my own conclusion). Our domestic flights were more than 75% full...how can AT justify the removal of the domestic flying if it’s not an AC’s request? (No need to thank us for the extra job for your group, merry Christmas)

[rudder]

I know it will please some of you here but my thoughts are for our colleagues (pilots) that are about to lose their job -again!- before Christmas; thanks to Air Canada (my own conclusion). Our domestic flights were more than 75% full...how can AT justify the removal of the domestic flying if it’s not an AC’s request? (No need to thank us for the extra job for your group, merry Christmas)

The victor dictates terms.

If TRZ thought they could go it alone, or generate a better offer from a party other than AC, then the original purchase agreement would simply have been allowed to expire. Instead, it was renegotiated by TRZ on terms acceptable to AC given the COVID reality.

There is no reason that AC would want to have to ‘compete’ with TS for finite passengers on the eve of closing the acquisition transaction. It was a given that AC does not see the role of TS going forward as a domestic capacity provider. That is the role of AC (and Express).

TS will have a limited winter sun schedule. A demand/fleet appropriate summer 2021 TATL schedule. And hopefully a meaningful winter 2021/2022 sun schedule as the de facto Rouge replacement.

No AC pilot will be recalled due to TS domestic flight cancellations. These are corporate decisions, not labour decisions.

[Fanblade]

I know it will please some of you here but my thoughts are for our colleagues (pilots) that are about to lose their job -again!- before Christmas; thanks to Air Canada (my own conclusion). Our domestic flights were more than 75% full...how can AT justify the removal of the domestic flying if it’s not an AC’s request? (No need to thank us for the extra job for your group, merry Christmas)

It doesn’t please me that there might be more furloughs.

But Rudder is correct. Corporate is making pragmatic decisions. Competing with yourself makes no sense. When your losing 550M a month combined? They have no choice.

Still it sucks. My condolences. The same as to the AC furloughs.