Syllabus for Gp 3 IFR + PTR questions for freelance CFI

[nvestr]

Hi guys,

Background: I am a PPL (completed via FTU) and I just completed the night rating with a freelance CFI that I know. As part of night rating, we started informally touching on IFR stuff since I needed some instrument time anyway and the plan was to start Group 3 IFR immediately after Night Rating. Most of our time in the air (after the night stuff was addressed) has been going over briefing IFR plates, etc and we so far have done 3 simulated RNAV approaches. I already have the bulk of IFR ground school (Harv's Air) done so have fairly solid theoretical foundation of IFR. I own a G1000 T182T which is where the training will be completed. Instructor knows the plane very well as he has considerable time in G1000 T182T so it is a great fit.

Anyway, my CFI is an Air Canada pilot (CRJ and A220 type rated, 3500+ hours, very knowledgeable) that is currently furloughed - still has his class 2 instructor rating. I've asked him to basically train me through IFR since he is sitting at home. He agreed but had some hesitancy since when he instructed it was through a large FTU that had all of the lesson plans and their system spit out the PTR at the end. He never had to worry about putting together the content or producing the PTR - the school would do that for him. I told him I'd look into seeing how structured IFR has to be and what is required in terms of training records.

Ideally, I think I would learn best in a more informal setting by basically just doing a ton of IFR flights together, practicing a ton of holds, approaches, etc, but making sure we touch everything that is needed (and spending the corresponding amount of time for ground briefs, etc.)

Is there a mandated formal curriculum and syllabus that needs to be followed (and documented in the PTR) to satisfy TC's requirements? I know there is for PPL (all of the air exercises in the flight training manual). I can't seem to find anything for IFR. Or is it as simple as meeting the hour requirements for dual IFR training hours, long IFR XC, instrument time and PIC XC time + passed IFR flight test?

Thanks!

[photofly]

Instrument rating doesn’t require a PTR. No formal training records are needed.

There is no formal syllabus for an instrument rating. Use the flight test guide, common sense, TC AIM, and any third-party books you/he care to, to put something together. As an experienced 705 pilot with a lot of IFR experience he shouldn’t find it challenging.

Bear in mind that once you have a night rating, all the rest of your instrument rating experience can be gained flying with a suitably qualified person who is not even an instructor, and effectively solo (with a safety observer).

[ahramin]

Bear in mind that once you have a night rating, all the rest of your instrument rating experience can be gained flying with a suitably qualified person who is not even an instructor, and effectively solo (with a safety observer).

Almost.

(ii) 40 hours of instrument time of which a maximum of 20 hours may be instrument ground time. The 40 hours instrument time shall include a minimum of:

(A) 5 hours of dual instrument flight time acquired from the holder of a flight instructor rating ,
(B) 5 hours in aeroplanes where the applicant is applying for a Group 1, 2 or 3 instrument rating or in helicopters where the applicant is applying for a Group 4 instrument rating,
(C) Fifteen (15) hours of dual instrument flight time provided by a qualified person as specified in section 425.21(9)

[ahramin]

Your instructor has reason to be concerned. I've seen what happens when someone with lots of operational experience tries to train a private pilot for an instrument rating with no experience doing so and no syllabus. Unless the candidate is extremely self motivated and learns all the theory on their own the check ride may not even get off the ground. You end up with a candidate who is very comfortable flying around in the system but doesn't know the requirements for a visual or an alternate with no TAF, has no idea how to deal with abnormal or emergency procedures in an IFR context, and can't figure out how to transition from an arrival to an approach without radar vectors.

I've been in your instructor's shoes and it seems like a massive amount of work to put together a proper training plan for a pilot / owner. Unless he is charging a very high dollar rate per lesson it can seem like a waste of time. Much easier to just jump in the plane and teach for a couple hours and let the student figure out the rest.

But as photofly said, it's not that hard. There is no PTR but you can use the recommend form in the back of the flight test guide to make sure you have all the minimum experience bases covered. I would suggest you make sure you are paying your instructor well enough that he is willing to put the time in to organize a syllabus that will cover everything you need to fly operationally in the IFR world, and pass the exam, and deal with any problems you may encounter during either. If he is unwilling to put in the effort, consider hiring another instructor near the end for practice flight tests.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Naestr

The FTU Instrument Rating course isn't really designed to make you areal world IFR pilot it is designed to pass the ride in the minimum time and cost. This is not unreasonable as 90% of the pilots taking the course are commercial pilots who's first job will be right seat on a Navajo . King Air, 1900 etc. They will learn real world IFR flying on the job.

You want an IFR course that will prepare you to fly real world IFR in your airplane. I had a student like you a few years back. Fairly low time PPL in their own very well equipped Cessna 210.

I designed a custom course for him. Broadly speaking it was in 3 parts

1) The first third was a lot of basic hand flying under the hood. Figure 8's, climbing and descending turns at various airspeeds and really nailing down the Attitude plus Power + Performance equation so it was automatic for any conceivable situation. I rode him like a cheap donkey and insisted on perfection. This was extremely tedious for me but IMO absolutely vital that he had the confidence to fly the airplane with the instruments no matter what.

2) The second third was IFR procedures. So nailing the "how" for all the required SIDS STARS, approaches, holds etc

3) The last third was all real world IFR A to B flights with a departure, enroute, arrival and approach to a full stop landing. The majority were in IMC and several were are on pretty crappy days. There was heavy use of the autopilot and lots of discussion about "what next".

When he finished he was good to go on light IFR days but had the skill to deal with the unexpected. More mentoring allowed him to work up to harder conditions.

Total time about 45 hrs dual, all in the airplane.

A few final thoughts

1) In a G1000 airplane a complete understanding of the system and automation discipline is absolutely critical.

2) If you are not comfortable pushing the big red button on the control wheel at any point of the flight you are not ready to fly IFR on your own

3) the 3 ATC phrases that any new pilot flying single pilot IFR should not be afraid to use
- Say Again
- Unable
- I don't understand what you want me to do

[photofly]

Bear in mind that once you have a night rating, all the rest of your instrument rating experience can be gained flying with a suitably qualified person who is not even an instructor, and effectively solo (with a safety observer).

Almost.

(ii) 40 hours of instrument time of which a maximum of 20 hours may be instrument ground time. The 40 hours instrument time shall include a minimum of:

(A) 5 hours of dual instrument flight time acquired from the holder of a flight instructor rating ,
(B) 5 hours in aeroplanes where the applicant is applying for a Group 1, 2 or 3 instrument rating or in helicopters where the applicant is applying for a Group 4 instrument rating,
(C) Fifteen (15) hours of dual instrument flight time provided by a qualified person as specified in section 425.21(9)

What did I say that was wrong?

[ahramin]

Bear in mind that once you have a night rating, all the rest of your instrument rating experience can be gained flying with a suitably qualified person who is not even an instructor, and effectively solo (with a safety observer).

Almost.

(ii) 40 hours of instrument time of which a maximum of 20 hours may be instrument ground time. The 40 hours instrument time shall include a minimum of:

(A) 5 hours of dual instrument flight time acquired from the holder of a flight instructor rating ,
(B) 5 hours in aeroplanes where the applicant is applying for a Group 1, 2 or 3 instrument rating or in helicopters where the applicant is applying for a Group 4 instrument rating,
(C) Fifteen (15) hours of dual instrument flight time provided by a qualified person as specified in section 425.21(9)

What did I say that was wrong?

Whoops. Reading through it a few more times I think I understand what you meant. Disregard.

Naestr

The FTU Instrument Rating course isn't really designed to make you areal world IFR pilot it is designed to pass the ride in the minimum time and cost. This is not unreasonable as 90% of the pilots taking the course are commercial pilots who's first job will be right seat on a Navajo . King Air, 1900 etc. They will learn real world IFR flying on the job.

You want an IFR course that will prepare you to fly real world IFR in your airplane. I had a student like you a few years back. Fairly low time PPL in their own very well equipped Cessna 210.

I designed a custom course for him. Broadly speaking it was in 3 parts

1) The first third was a lot of basic hand flying under the hood. Figure 8's, climbing and descending turns at various airspeeds and really nailing down the Attitude plus Power + Performance equation so it was automatic for any conceivable situation. I rode him like a cheap donkey and insisted on perfection. This was extremely tedious for me but IMO absolutely vital that he had the confidence to fly the airplane with the instruments no matter what.

2) The second third was IFR procedures. So nailing the "how" for all the required SIDS STARS, approaches, holds etc

3) The last third was all real world IFR A to B flights with a departure, enroute, arrival and approach to a full stop landing. The majority were in IMC and several were are on pretty crappy days. There was heavy use of the autopilot and lots of discussion about "what next".

When he finished he was good to go on light IFR days but had the skill to deal with the unexpected. More mentoring allowed him to work up to harder conditions.

Total time about 45 hrs dual, all in the airplane.

A few final thoughts

1) In a G1000 airplane a complete understanding of the system and automation discipline is absolutely critical.

2) If you are not comfortable pushing the big red button on the control wheel at any point of the flight you are not ready to fly IFR on your own

3) the 3 ATC phrases that any new pilot flying single pilot IFR should not be afraid to use
- Say Again
- Unable
- I don't understand what you want me to do

Yes Yes! To BPF you listen! I would add the following:

1. A big part of part 1 is the scan, and the scan includes cheating in every way possible to make your situational awareness as complete as possible. With a G1000 you should be able to tell at a glance if you are climbing or descending, where the wind is from and what it's doing to you, where you are and where you are going and what your desired track there is and actual track is and once the flight director is introduced, what guidance modes are active and armed. All this as a normal part of your scan without any special effort on your part.

4. My syllabus is in quarters, with the last quarter dealing with abnormal and emergency procedures. I usually teach in homebuilts and this is often a section that has been completely overlooked for years, with little or no written procedures to work from. In your case you have some written procedures but you need to practice getting them out and going through them while still doing aviate navigate communicate.

[nvestr]

Appreciate the feedback.

When you say no PTR is required, you imply that I actually do not need to submit a PTR to TC, only my logbook? The Harv`s Air website indicates that a PTR is required along with a flight test recommendation per here : https://www.harvsair.com/instrument-rat ... checklist/

IS that simply their in house SOP or FTOM rules and is not what TC would require for a non-integrated outside-of-FTU submission?



For the other comments, thank you. It all seems to make sense. The 3 or 4 parts mentioned were definitely going to be focused on - I did not mean to imply that it would be loosy-goosy and that we wouldn't cover everything.

Not to toot my own horn but I consider myself a very strong student and am very motivated to self-learn as much as possible - my goal is to try to know as much as possible before my instructor actually teaches it to me so that it's simply refining/confirming existing knowledge, not teaching me something from scratch.

I have been studying hard with the Harv's Air ground school and have been self-teaching myself from the Powerpoint briefings that a local FTU would use to go through the ground briefs in their integrated syllabus. I also have myself setup with a home sim with XPlane 11 using a G1000 T182T with the same autopilot that my plane has, etc. I have been flying SIDs, STARs and approaches in the SIM for a while, using actual plates and have my SIM connected to foreflight on my iPad, etc. just as if I was flying the real thing. I also plan to start using PilotEdge soon in my SIM to get really comfortable with the system, read-backs, etc.

I think with all of this, I should be in good shape to have a smooth experience going through IFR with said instructor. Anybody disagree or have other pointers?

[photofly]

Appreciate the feedback.

When you say no PTR is required, you imply that I actually do not need to submit a PTR to TC, only my logbook? The Harv`s Air website indicates that a PTR is required along with a flight test recommendation per here : https://www.harvsair.com/instrument-rat ... checklist/

IS that simply their in house SOP or FTOM rules and is not what TC would require for a non-integrated outside-of-FTU submission?

For any Initial instrument rating application, TC requires neither a logbook, nor a PTR. (PTR is required for PPR, PPL, CPL and instructor rating only, per the regulations.) The examiner will be authorized to sign off your temporary privileges at the successful conclusion of your check ride, and will almost certainly ask to see (but not keep) your logbook as proof that you meet the experience requirements.

Due to COVID you can now take the test flight without having completed the INRAT but you still need to meet the experience requirements and the examiner will check that.

[praveen4143]

If you intend to make a go at a Commercial Pilot License at some point, you could get at least the night rating training on a PTR and have the instructor sign off on the pages you enter/input training information and then use it towards your CPL training on a later date. Otherwise as the other posters mentioned, no real reason to have a generic PTR.

<My $0.02>
If your instructor has or can make a training program specific to your case and make a custom PTR (remember that generic PTRs are really aimed at ab-initio training) then it might help you keep tabs on how your training is going and be able to keep a "greedy" instructor from taking you for granted. It helps keep both of you accountable. But it's a lot of work from the instructor for just one student.
</My $0.02>