Perfect Landings

5x5 · Post by **5x5** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 11:06 pm

I'm thinking never. The hardest landing I've ever experienced was on an AC flight coming back from Germany. The pilot had around 25,000 hours and it was his second last flight before retirement and the FO had about 14,000. They were a couple of cynical old pricks if that had anything to do with it. We landed in Calgary so hard that I was surprised the overhead bins didn't pop open and everyone in the plane gasped/yelped in astonishment.

Of course my own, well they're all beauties.

master switch · Post by **master switch** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:39 am

I wish was as smart as everyone here. I should have been killed many times by now.

MayDay · Post by **MayDay** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:00 pm

If you are happy with your landings when you hold a bit of power, try bringing the power back sooner and have a bit higher airspeed (5 kts in a C172) until your comfortable with the flare height, timing and attitude.

istp, everyone has had a bad landing. It may take longer for some to grow out of it then others. (I know some people who are still growing)

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:15 pm

oldtimer wrote:Actually, there is a real easy method of judging the round out or flair in a two pilot airplane. Just watch the co-pilot. When he stiffens up and squeeks, "Holy Shit". flair.

It's a little late I know but that actually works oldtimer. Was checking a guy out in a 172 a few years back that normally flew an ultralight, that only sat a couple of inches off the ground. He said he knew it was time to flare when he saw me tensing up. Works great in theory but I wonder what he did on his own.

RadMan · Post by **RadMan** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:22 pm

I'm sorry Cat but I have to agree with the "end of the runway method".

I'm sure it's not for everyone, but for students and new pilots I have generally found the key difficulties involve landing flat and drifting. 9 times out of 10 I confirmed that my students would be looking too close and therefore not able to trully detect nose attitude and wind drift. No, the students can't tell EXACTLY how high above the ground they are, but through proper instruction of when to transition from descent to flare to landing, they land with not exact but consistantly good performance and most importantly safely.

I have found that newbies tend to have more difficulties with looking too close than too far. My experience has been that 500' is too close.

With time (some a lot more than others) they learn to use peripheral vision consistantly to judge not just drift and ballooning, but height as well.

Just my experience.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:41 pm

I guess we all have our own ideas of how to judge things when flying and maybe I'm just to much of a perfectionist because of the type of flying that I have done.

From my point of view I use what works best, for instance in airshow work doing an inverted ribbon pick up what would be the chance of hitting the ribbon if you looked past it to the end of the runway?

Try crop spraying at say 85 Knots and two feet above the crop, how long would you be able to follow the rises and dips of the fields if you looked thousands of feet ahead?

I have taught students to look ahead to where movement of the runway ceases ( about five hundred feet in a bug smasher ) and never ever had problems getting them to judge their height accurately....

But whatever works best for any indidual instructor I guess is O.K..

Now what do you think about getting rid of all the TC ideas of how to instruct and the structured methods they insist on and just have one requirement.

The student must demonstrate they can meet the flight test standards, period?

In other words once an instructor is licensed to instruct they use their own methods to teach and teach the student to fly to the test standards.

I would like to take a student and just teach them how to fly without being forced to comply with set times and methods.

Cat.

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 6:33 pm

RadMan wrote:I have found that newbies tend to have more difficulties with looking too close than too far

and

RadMan wrote:I have to agree with the "end of the runway method"

Would it not be better to use a "look a little farther down the runway" method than the "end of the runway" then? If someone was not pulling the nose up enough in the flare, would you tell them to pull the nose all the way up?

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:20 pm

I guess that I developed the look down the runway thing afer transitioning from floats/skiis to wheels. On wheel,s you don't have the luxury of a long runway and landing on a snow covered runway in a fast twin chews up lots of runway if you leave too much power on and most people have a hard time adjusting power low to the grund so this is how I was able to teach my right seaters how to get a Cheyenne or King Air down without having to lock up the brakes. I also find a lot of people are pretty uptight close to the ground so telling a quick oneliner on close final, relaxed the person and they were able to take in all that was happening. the result was consistantly better landings, at least till I ran out of oneliners.

EPR · Post by **EPR** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:28 am

Johnny5,what make of aircraft are you training in?

Johnny5 · Post by **Johnny5** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:56 pm

EPR: Training in a C-172

EPR · Post by **EPR** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 10:29 am

Try using 20 of flaps and an approach speed of 65 knots (75 mph) in calm conditions and continue to bring your power off over the threshhold but take it off smoothly so as to minimize the amount of elevator correction that is sometimes required after an abrupt power reduction.
Clear as mud?

floats4fun · Post by **floats4fun** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:41 pm

I thought I had clicked post but I guess not, anyways just sitting here bored at work and revisiting some old posts on this website. I find this topic really interesting because as Cat said everyone lands/fly’s/takes off etc etc…in their own personalized way to a point.

But what about this same topic with being on the water? I find from my float flying teachers that its way more varied then landing on a runway. For example when I learned how to fly I was taught power off over the threshold gradually resulting in a power off landing, some nice some not for the most part always improving along my journey with flying. Same for my mifr but I always kept a little power (just a touch) into the flare…then power off for the landing.

But with floats I find some teachers prefer the power off and some teach with a bit of power. I started flying on water with the power off…and still mix the different types up to stay proficient with power offs on water incase I was ever forced with a no engine landing. But I like the power on (under right conditions) because they are a lot smoother and softer then a power off especially when I take friends up. This paragraph excludes glassy conditions of course.

So what were you taught for water flying? And all you pro float teachers what do you teach and suggest (solely for the fun of knowing what others do).

Kewl post though…and not an ounce of fighting in it! Things have changed

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:53 pm

So what were you taught for water flying? And all you pro float teachers what do you teach and suggest (solely for the fun of knowing what others do).

The best teachers teach every possible way to handle the power and flight controls...that way their students can use whatever method best suits the landing.

BoostedNihilist · Post by **BoostedNihilist** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:37 pm

Tango01 · Post by **Tango01** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:42 pm

BoostedNihilist wrote:I am not that experienced, but I like to think my instructor is teaching me the proper method of landing.

I have read all the posts but nowhere have I read a mention about the round out phase of landing. The method I have been taught includes a transfer from a nose down attitude to a straight/level descent at about 30ft agl (the height of the hanger to the right of 04) (in a 172) Being that I have my power cut I am still descending though in straight/level attitude. Now this is where it gets tricky and there is no (In my unqualified opinion) hard or fast rule... I am so scared of a prop strike that I use this fear to determine when I start my flare... usually at about five feet AGL. When the flare is initiated I transfer my point of reference from the spot I am aiming my aircraft to hit to the end of the runway... Note what is actually happening is the vision is being shifted from looking down at the runway (which would leave you looking at your instruments as you are in nose up attitude due to the flair) to straight ahead, but I am really paying attention to the peripheries. You should have a known, established height above the ground before you iniated your final flare and touchdown. Now if you are paying attention to your peripheries you will see the airplane sink in relation to the ground on either side of your vision... I might not be able to tell you that I am 7.5 inches above the ground, but I am pretty good at judging when my wheels will hit the ground and make that nice squeak sound I love so much.

Anyways, I didn't put that out there as advice, this is just how I was taught and it works for me quite well.

You shouldn't judge height based on local features such as the hangar to the right of 04 or the tree to the south of 09 because what are you going to do when you go into an unfamiliar airport?

BoostedNihilist · Post by **BoostedNihilist** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:44 pm

shimmydampner · Post by **shimmydampner** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:49 pm

OW wrote:Received a video clip of a PBY on approach (touch and go) with a couple of fishermen in a boat til just before lift off. Don't know if it was dubbed or for real. Telephoto lens makes it look pretty close. Title is "Fishing Hazard". Don't know how to put it on here.

It's from the movie "Always", quite possibly one of the gayest movies of all time.

'effin hippie · Post by **'effin hippie** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:48 am

I must add that in some airplanes, such as a Chieftan, if you pull the power right off, the moment the throttles hit the idle stop you are going to fall right out of the sky. KA 100's are like that too methinks. You have to carry a little power.

One problem I consistently note in new guys/gals is an addiction to 2 hands on the yoke, so they have a lot of trouble making the correct power inputs at the appropriate times. Plus if it happens that you do need to add power during a landing, you probably need it NOW or something BAD is going to happen, so I have thus far felt that 1 hand on yoke 1 hand on power is the correct way to fly a landing.
So to the newbies I would say that is one thing you could look at - where are your hands when you fly an approach? You should be able to fly it proficiently with one hand, the other one can run power and also trim.

Oh yeah, trim, try using more, not so much that in a go around you have to bench-press the column, but enough to lighten the pull you need in the flare - it seems easier for folks to fine-tune a small force as opposed to a large one. Women in particular might think about this one.

Just my 2c.....

ef

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:01 am

I must add that in some airplanes, such as a Chieftan, if you pull the power right off, the moment the throttles hit the idle stop you are going to fall right out of the sky.

We all have different opinions on this....I don't remember the chieftain being any different from any other light airplane as far as closing the throttles goes and I almost always closed the throttles before the flare.....however it's no big deal we all do things differently.

One problem I consistently note in new guys/gals is an addiction to 2 hands on the yoke, so they have a lot of trouble making the correct power inputs at the appropriate times. Plus if it happens that you do need to add power during a landing, you probably need it NOW or something BAD is going to happen, so I have thus far felt that 1 hand on yoke 1 hand on power is the correct way to fly a landing.

You are 100% bang on there...where did this moronic habit come from?

There is not an airplane on earth that can't be landed with one hand on the wheel / stick and the other on the throttle / s.

I would not hire a pilot who did this on a check ride for the simple reason that if said pilot is this poorly trained why risk finding out what else he/she doesen't know about how to properly fly an airplane.

Blue Side Down · Post by **Blue Side Down** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:09 am

Johnny5 wrote:....
So what's the trick? Any tips from you guys would be greatly appreciated.

If you have the time and patience for the following:

Find a taildragger in your area that you can put some time on- just a simple Citabria or Supercub**. 5 hours dual initial will help put things into the right perspective. Checking out solo and spending another 5 or 10 hours running around the circuit will be a great help.

The short answer to landing nicely in a single-piston is to round out at the right height and then keep the plane flying in the flare until it just won't fly anymore... best accomplished by practice.

**assuming you're in SW Ontario options might be Future Air in Holland Landing, BFC in Brampton, contacting I_Reason here on avc.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:35 am

Don't forget to learn how to do good wheel landings on the tail dragger....because that will end your problems with judging height forever.

BoostedNihilist · Post by **BoostedNihilist** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:26 pm

Perfect Landings

Re: Perfect Landings