A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

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A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by photofly »

I've just read a groundbreaking case from the TATC:
https://decisions.tatc.gc.ca/tatc/tatc/ ... 5/index.do

It has often been held in this forum (and by TC) that a broken part renders the aircraft out of conformity with its type design and therefore invalidates the C of A - without which (typically) an aircraft has no flight authority.

The TATC has driven a coach and horses through this interpretation.

It held:
We do not see it as accidental that the CARs have been drafted so as to give a narrow ambit to the issue of “conformity to type design.” Otherwise, if the Minister’s interpretation were correct, then every crack or bulge in a hinge or fairing, every popped rivet, every dent, bend or erosion of a part, every chip in paint, every crazing of a window, any amount of leaking fluid, or any of a host of routine defects that are not expressly addressed in a particular maintenance manual, would become an insurmountable obstacle to an AME. The AME could certify the aircraft as being fit and safe, but this would be insufficient.
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Rather, our view is that the occurrence of a defect in an aircraft part does not, in itself, raise a question of its conformity to type design. Rather, it brings into question whether the part is in a fit and safe state for flight.
Thank me later for bringing this to your attention.
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

Interesting case.

I can understand the legalese, but could someone kindly elaborate for me - how much authority does the TATC have?
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by photofly »

In the 1990's the Department of Transport decided it was tedious and overly burdensome upon them to have to prosecute naughty pilots under the Air Navigation Orders in the magistrates' courts, where a criminal standard of proof ("beyond reasonable doubt") needed to be met before conviction.

So they invented the Aeronautics Act, which is the statutory framework for the Canadian Aviation Regulations, and a regime where a TC inspector on behalf of the Minister could issue you a fine, often up to $25k, as an "administrative penalty" - kind of like a parking ticket - without any proof of your malfeasance being needed at all. If you didn't like this then you could appeal to a new body, initially the Civil Aviation Tribunal and then from 2003 the TATC, which would decide on the basis of probabililty - a much weaker standard - if the MInister was right or wrong.

If you didn't like the decision of the TATC (at first instance a hearing in front of a single member) you could (and still can) appeal to a three member panel of the TATC. Appeal panel decisions like this one are binding on the TATC going forward.

If you or the MInister don't like the appeal panel decision you can appeal further to the federal court, then to the Court of Appeal, and then to the Supreme Court of Canada.

I know of only one pilot who took an enforcement decision from TC to the Court of Appeal and asked for leave to appeal to the Supreme Court. It's quite a case. But that's for another time.

Having a decision like this against them will not sit well with TC enforcement, but it is significant for pilots and owners. It means that TC can no longer claim a missing inspection cover screw automaticall renders your flight authority invalid; they have to do some work and show that the missing screw was an actual safety of flight issue, before they can fine you.

It also underlines the distinction between section 2 of the maintenance manual ("Limitations") which are part of the type design, and the maintenance instructions as a whole, which are not.
We therefore note that when the Minister’s witness testified that the maintenance manual and the illustrated parts catalogue are part of the type design, he was incorrect as a matter of law. Rather, in accordance with the CARs definition, only the limitations section of the maintenance manual is part of the type design, and parts catalogues are not part of the type design.
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by digits_ »

Nice!

Can TC still appeal in the federal court as you wrote? Or would this interpretation be "set in stone" even if they appeal the decision of the case in itself?
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by photofly »

Yes, they can appeal. A court decision would set a higher precedent and be binding on the Tribunal. I believe also the federal court is a hearing de novo, meaning the witnesses get to give evidence again.

But it cuts both ways: the logic of the decision is pretty tight, it’s hard to imagine a judge would find differently, and a court decision affirming this one would be even harder to overturn.

If TC did appeal to the federal court, and lost, it would likely have costs awarded against it, whereas I don't think costs are usually awarded in the TATC. You have to applaud EVAS for taking it this far. It likely cost them a lot more in legal fees than the $5,000 fine they escaped.
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by PilotDAR »

Rather, it brings into question whether the part is in a fit and safe state for flight.
That's the key, and has been a main factor for as long as I can remember. A more important thing to consider is who is authorized to make this determination, if there is doubt. Pilots should probably not make a determination that an airplane is fit and safe for flight beyond their privileges for elementary maintenance as listed in AWM571. If the question is beyond that, and AME/AMO will have to make the determination.

It is correct that for some types, the maintenance manual and parts manual are not included in the definition of the type design. A person who wished to challenge their applicability should first consider AWM571.02:
Persons who perform maintenance or elementary work are required to follow the manufacturer’s recommendations, or equivalent practices.......... Where the manufacturer has not made specific recommendations, standard industry practices are to be used.
So if you wanted to not follow the manufacturer's manuals for that aircraft, you'd have to be able to show that there was a more applicable document for the maintenance you're considering. But check the type certificate data sheet for the aircraft, as some do specifically list the applicable manuals - if they do, you must use those manuals.
We do not see it as accidental that the CARs have been drafted so as to give a narrow ambit to the issue of “conformity to type design.” Otherwise, if the Minister’s interpretation were correct, then every crack or bulge in a hinge or fairing, every popped rivet, every dent, bend or erosion of a part, every chip in paint, every crazing of a window, any amount of leaking fluid, or any of a host of routine defects that are not expressly addressed in a particular maintenance manual, would become an insurmountable obstacle to an AME. The AME could certify the aircraft as being fit and safe, but this would be insufficient
In considering the foregoing the forgoing partial list of defects, I can think of the differences between Cessna and Piper for some of their popular models. Cessna provides many comprehensive examples of negligible damage, so the AME/AMO can sign the plane out as conforming to it's type design while having that defect. I have seen examples of Piper models (PA-28-161) for example, which do not provide any definition for negligible damage, so in theory, any defect grounds the plane.

AME's seem agreeable to applying reason in the case of such defects generally, but if you're importing the plane, the bar will probably be higher. An example would be hail damage. To a degree, Cessna allows it as being negligible, the PA-28-161 does not. Interestingly, Piper does allow a defined amount of hail damage for a few very specific types (I have my own opinions as to why only those types). I once had to issue an approval to allow a PA28-161 to have some hail damage, in accordance with Piper data for a different model, so the plane could be imported, otherwise, the airframe would have been scrap upon importation to Canada (it had already been deregistered from the US).

In fairness, an aircraft manufacturer could not possibly imagine all of the damage that their product could sustain, and perhaps be airworthy. And, we the taxpayers, don't want TC spending large amounts of time pre thinking this either, some things are case by case...
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by photofly »

PilotDAR wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:17 am It is correct that for some types, the maintenance manual and parts manual are not included in the definition of the type design.
The TATC held, as a matter of law (and it's a precedent over all TATC decisions going forward, and therefore binding on TC Enforcement, and therefore binding on TC as a whole) that the maintenance manual and parts manual are not part of the type design for any type of aircraft at all. At this stage it doesn't matter what an inspector or any official up to and including the minister says or thinks. Only the limitations section of the maintenance manual, and no part of the parts manual, is part of the type design. Unless and until the federal court overturns that ruling.
So if you wanted to not follow the manufacturer's manuals for that aircraft...
Again the point the TATC made was that there are a whole bunch of things that go wrong with aircraft that aren't listed in any maintenance manual. TC's position was that any defect not given the clear go-ahead as airworthy by the manufacturer had to be fixed to an as-new condition on the basis of non-conformity. The TATC said that was patent nonsense. Each defect would have to be considered on its own merit:
TATC, in EVAS wrote:Whether the part is in a fit and safe state for flight would be a question of maintenance judgment.
I do not think the Tribunal would accept the same blanket "must fix" argument (that they threw out when argued from conformity) on the basis of "fit and safe" instead.
PilotDAR wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:17 am I have seen examples of Piper models (PA-28-161) for example, which do not provide any definition for negligible damage, so in theory, any defect grounds the plane.
I don't think there's any basis for such a theory, as discussed. I think if the manufacturer provides no guidance, then TC would have to supply expert evidence that the specific defect relating to which they wanted to enforce rendered the aircraft unfit, or unsafe, according to the natural meaning of those words. Sometimes that could be an easy show, but I hope it would cause some thought before TC engaged on prosecuting a maintenance triviality. Which is as it should be.
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by photofly »

A more important thing to consider is who is authorized to make this determination, if there is doubt. Pilots should probably not make a determination that an airplane is fit and safe for flight beyond their privileges for elementary maintenance as listed in AWM571.
This is something I think the TATC got wrong in their judgement. They wrote (my emphasis):
Otherwise, if the Minister’s interpretation were correct, then every crack or bulge in a hinge or fairing, every popped rivet, every dent, bend or erosion of a part, every chip in paint, every crazing of a window, any amount of leaking fluid, or any of a host of routine defects that are not expressly addressed in a particular maintenance manual, would become an insurmountable obstacle to an AME. The AME could certify the aircraft as being fit and safe...
The Tribunal also wrote about (again, my emphasis)
the authority clearly granted to licensed AMEs and AMOs under the CARs to issue maintenance releases certifying that an aircraft or part is airworthy, that is, both safe and conforming
I think this misunderstands the role of the AME, and I know of no such authority granted to AMEs and AMOs.

Other than at the time of application for a type certificate, or flight (ferry) permit, I know of no opportunity for an AME to certify anything of the sort. A maintenance release certifies only that the "work performed has been conducted in accordance with the applicable airworthiness requirements" - it says nothing about the fitness of the airplane or of its parts. What the Tribunal is describing sounds more like an Authorized Release Certificate, which can only be
Transport Canada wrote:issued by AMOs approved by Transport Canada, and only for work performed directly under their control and within the scope of their approval. Aircraft are not to be released using the certificate.
An AME's opinion may be sought on a "fit and safe" issue - but there's no requirement to do so. Nor, I think, if an AME opined that an aircraft was safe, would that guarantee freedom from prosecution for a pilot if TC thought the AME was wrong. If a pilot flew an airplane having been advised that a part was not fit or safe, that might count against the pilot, but would not, of itself, be determinative.

As we've discussed many times, as clearly stated in the CARs, the final determination about airworthiness falls on the Pilot in Command.
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Last edited by photofly on Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by torquey401 »

Std 625.10 Information Notes are helpful. They are advisorary only, but help guide users just the same.
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by ahramin »

Exactly. It's a real shame that almost no private owners or commercial pilots operating without an MEL are aware of those notes. All they learned from flight school was "any squawk in the journey log grounds the airplane". The rule at my club is that any defect gets entered immediately in the journey log, then figure out what to do about it. There is a workflow to follow to determine whether or not the defect grounds the aircraft and so far it's always been clear whether or not the aircraft is airworthy.
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by photofly »

Acually the real shame is that Transport Canada has such ridiculously difficult to interpret maintenance and airworthiness rules. It shouldn't take an appeal to the Tribunal, a second appeal, six lawyers and two and a half years to sort out that a plane can or can't fly with a cracked landing gear door.

If the rules were sensibly written in the first place, then and only then would you have a legitimate point about what people learn from their FTU.
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by boeingboy »

I don't think there's any basis for such a theory, as discussed. I think if the manufacturer provides no guidance, then TC would have to supply expert evidence that the specific defect relating to which they wanted to enforce rendered the aircraft unfit, or unsafe, according to the natural meaning of those words. Sometimes that could be an easy show, but I hope it would cause some thought before TC engaged on prosecuting a maintenance triviality. Which is as it should be.
I think in the context of what PilotDAR was talking is he was talking about structural issues, as he used hail damage as the example. In this case the SRM must be followed. It is the only manual that is FAA "approved". (You will see approved on the bottom of each page). So no deviations are allowed. The maintenance manual and the IPC are "acceptable data" so they do not HAVE to be used.

The number of people that want to burn me at the stake or look at me like I'm crazy when I tell them they can throw the MM over their shoulder is unreal.

"You have to use only the MM!"

"No I dont."

Gets them all the time.
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by digits_ »

ahramin wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:15 pm Exactly. It's a real shame that almost no private owners or commercial pilots operating without an MEL are aware of those notes. All they learned from flight school was "any squawk in the journey log grounds the airplane". The rule at my club is that any defect gets entered immediately in the journey log, then figure out what to do about it. There is a workflow to follow to determine whether or not the defect grounds the aircraft and so far it's always been clear whether or not the aircraft is airworthy.
Isn't that the exact procedure most flight schools follow as well? Not sure how your club rule differs from the standard FTU rule.
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by ahramin »

It has been reported to me by students at two different schools that they are highly discouraged from entering snags in the journey log since it grounds the aircraft until an AME can deal with it. Possibly the school's MPM or possibly misinformed instructors.

At the very least they want the pilot to call the school for consultation before entering a defect.

It has been almost a decade since I rented a plane from a local school but upon discovering a defect during a walkaround the journey log was instantly whisked away before anyone could make an entry. This was at home base so I'm not sure what the motivation was.
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by photofly »

ahramin wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:14 pm It has been reported to me by students at two different schools that they are highly discouraged from entering snags in the journey log since it grounds the aircraft until an AME can deal with it. Possibly the school's MPM or possibly misinformed instructors.

At the very least they want the pilot to call the school for consultation before entering a defect.

It has been almost a decade since I rented a plane from a local school but upon discovering a defect during a walkaround the journey log was instantly whisked away before anyone could make an entry. This was at home base so I'm not sure what the motivation was.
Yes, that's it. It's all the instructors' fault. Again.

Students have a habit of entering things that aren't actually defects. It's very tedious to have to dig an AME out of bed to write "no defect found" or "operating normally" before the aircraft gets to fly again.

Does your club operate commercially registered aircraft under an OC?
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by ahramin »

photofly wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:20 pm Yes, that's it. It's all the instructors' fault. Again.
What I wrote was
ahramin wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:14 pm Possibly the school's MPM or possibly misinformed instructors.
Not evil, misinformed. I didn't opine on who misinformed them. But that's simply my guess as to where this comes from and it's probably the former. What I'm trying to get at is that the schools are not teaching the CARs.
photofly wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:20 pm Students have a habit of entering things that aren't actually defects. It's very tedious to have to dig an AME out of bed to write "no defect found" or "operating normally" before the aircraft gets to fly again.

Does your club operate commercially registered aircraft under an OC?
No. Privately registered aircraft with no OC. The CARs for defects on aircraft not under an MEL are exactly the same for a commercially registered Skyhawk under an OC as for a privately registered one. As I noted above, an FTU's MPM may be more restrictive. If this is the case then I think the school should teach both their procedures and the CARs, since a PPL student is presumably paying to learn the all the basics of a PPL, not just those that apply to renting an aircraft from that school. What I am finding from the students I have spoken to is that there is no training on entering defects (CARs or school procedures) and they are simply told not to snag anything without approval from the school because it grounds the aircraft.

When these students then arrive at our club, they are briefed on how to enter defects in the journey log and to always enter defects in the journey log as soon as they are discovered on the ground or at the end of the flight if in flight. Then they are to go through the process of determining whether or not it is an airworthiness item using all required resources. This would include the CARs, the POH, and yes making a phone call and waking someone up if that is what is necessary. After this briefing I have had many of these pilots subsequently call me away from base with a defect and we go through whether or not the aircraft can still be safely and legally flown. After figuring it all out I invariably ask "have you entered it in the journey log?" and the answer is often "well no that would ground the aircraft". So then we brief defects all over again, the second time usually sticks.

Primacy :).
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by CpnCrunch »

Code: Select all

406.57 A flight training unit that operates an aeroplane, a helicopter or a glider shall designate a person to make journey log entries in accordance with section 605.94.
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by photofly »

ahramin wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:53 pm
photofly wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:20 pm
Does your club operate commercially registered aircraft under an OC?
No. Privately registered aircraft with no OC.
Well, stop there then. Operating under a maintenance control manual is, in practice, rather different to operating privately. TC heaps a whole load of extra requirements about defect management - not in the CARs - through the approved MCM. If your organization operates only private aircraft you can write anything you like in the Journey Log, and then it's up to each PIC if they want to fly or not. That is not the case for any organization operating under an OC, such as an FTU.

And secondly, since you don't have a Principal Operations Inspector nor a Principal Maintenance Inspector, nobody is looking over your shoulder to see what rules you broke, and there are no sanctions hanging over your head.

Not evil, misinformed. I didn't opine on who misinformed them. But that's simply my guess as to where this comes from and it's probably the former. What I'm trying to get at is that the schools are not teaching the CARs.
Firstly flight schools are not required to teach the maintenance CARs to students, and secondly neither flight instructors nor students are aircraft owners, nor are they being trained to be aircraft owners. Flight instructors are required to do certain things by their employers, to comply with rules about which you are ignorant. You are way off-side on this one.
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by ahramin »

1. Are you suggesting that item 9 of CAR 605 Schedule I does not apply to flight schools? Operating under an MPM does not relieve a pilot from following the CARs.

2. Entering defects is not a maintenance regulation, it's a pilot regulation.

3. Whether or not anything about aircraft ownership should be covered by schools during a PPL is certainly open to discussion but if they don't learn it as part of the PPL, where should they learn it? Personally I think the CARs section of the curriculum should cover required equipment, maintenance schedules, and defect reporting. I don't have a school though, all I know is that the PPLs coming from the local schools are ill equipped to fly any airplane not provided by that school.
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by photofly »

ahramin wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:49 pm 1. Are you suggesting that item 9 of CAR 605 Schedule I does not apply to flight schools? Operating under an MPM does not relieve a pilot from following the CARs.
I'm saying that making an entry in the defects column in the JL grounds the airplane at an FTU, until an AME has examined it. You can dance around the regulations, but when you've read and worked under some approved maintenance control manuals, you'll quickly see that's the practical effect. That will take the airplane offline for anything from an hour, to an entire weekend or longer. I don't see why it should be a matter of contention that someone with experience should check what a junior student imagines to be a defect, to confirm it really is one, before grounding the airplane.

2. Entering defects is not a maintenance regulation, it's a pilot regulation.
Indeed. It's a regulation that every single student learns, and is tested on at their flight test. The problem is that lots of things students think are defects actually aren't. Then there are a lot of spurious groundings, and flights cancelled for no reason. You have the luxury of not operating under an OC. You have freedom of action that FTU's don't.
3. Whether or not anything about aircraft ownership should be covered by schools during a PPL is certainly open to discussion
Feel free to start a thread.
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by Bede »

photofly wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:16 am Yes, they can appeal. A court decision would set a higher precedent and be binding on the Tribunal.
Not quite. TC can file a judicial review with the Federal Court. The FC almost always defers to a tribunal unless the appeal panel allowed an appeal but used an incorrect standard of review (see Friesen). Usually these JR's deal with proper standard of review, but in this case both parties agreed that the applicable standard of review is one of correctness. Not to many Federal judge's are going to delve deep into the intricacies of maintenance procedures. That's why we have specialized tribunals.

photofly wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:16 am I believe also the federal court is a hearing de novo, meaning the witnesses get to give evidence again.
No it's not. See above.
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Re: A broken part is not a "conformity" issue - OFFICIAL

Post by photofly »

I stand corrected: an appeal decision of the TATC is reviewable by the federal court, not appealable to the federal court.
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