Calin is retiring February 2021

[Dh8Classic]

I guess it just proves that saving the airline, which offered guys the opportunity to upgrade quickly to the higher pay scale over their career will not endear them to you.

I suppose the reality of ‘Why pay them more as they will hate me no matter what I give them’ could apply.

Interesting notion, but he was never hated, or shouldn't have been.

So he grows the Company to increase shareholder value, and make himself rich in the process. Growing the airline means more planes. A plane needs two engines and as few pilots as you can get away with to run it, because it will not move without them. A non moving airplane is a depreciating liability, so it must move. We would not be here if the aircraft didn't require at least two pilots. Both are necessary in commercial operation for the foreseeable future. By necessity there were more pilot jobs, or shareholder value would not have risen much.

Nobody is at any company(in general) is there if they are not required. And Calin wouldn't be there for the shareholders if he wasn't required(maybe artificial intelligence someday). That's the way it works.

Never forget that we weren't given "one dime" over and above what we contractually negotiated (in our wonderful 10 year deal) while the company was raking in huge profits.

I doubt you would sharing too many dimes with F/A's(with occasional exception) and baggage handlers if ACPA had somehow been able to suddenly negotiate a nice big bonus partway through that contract.

[Ratherbe]

Remember, Calin was very rich when he took on the job in 2009. Why would he want all the headaches if it wasn’t money?

The 10 year deal, such as it was, guaranteed growth. Airlines, big or small, have always promised pilots shiny new airplanes in exchange for some kind of cooperation. That deal assured the shiny new planes actually showed up. It also assured us that the militant minority would not be able to attempt another ill-conceived war (see the ACPA Audit). As a group, we sacrificed the possibility of large pay rate increases for certainty.

Big airplanes gave us big pay cheques and more pilots per airplane. We were just starting to see the next stage of Calin’s growth strategy with the narrow body expansion (B737 and A220). Now that’s all gone and they need to develop a completely new business plan. Meanwhile we still have the 10 year deal in place with it’s certainty.

Personally, I was disappointed with the 10 year deal but in hindsight it looks like it was the right decision for our pilots to make.

[spinaxis]

I threw up in my mouth a little bit reading that post. You sound like you'd make a great manager.

[Ratherbe]

You should really see a doctor about that

[RVR6000]

..

[YYZSaabGuy]

It was never his objective to create more pilot jobs.....ever. We were burried somewhere in "operational costs" during the expansion process. We were never more special than that. In addition, there was no favour. More jobs occurred out of necessity, nothing more. We would be cut loose tomorrow if aircraft could suddenly fly themselves. Never forget that we weren't given "one dime" over and above what we contractually negotiated (in our wonderful 10 year deal) while the company was raking in huge profits. We were held firmly to the contract.

Not trying to be harsh, but I find your comments baffling.

1. Employee costs are operating costs everywhere - this is not unique to Air Canada.

2. What made you think you were "special" in the first place, or that your employer owed you favours of any kind?

3. Jobs "occur out of necessity, nothing more" everywhere, not just at Air Canada. Long-term successful employers hire skilled employees because they need them to run their business, not out of some misguided sense of altruism.

4. If you negotiated a binding contract, why would you have thought there should be any provision to pay you "one dime" more than what you had negotiated at the bargaining table? As a skilled professional, in a large-company environment, exactly what would you expect to happen other than that your counterparty would hold you firmly to the terms of a contract to which you and your colleagues had agreed?

As a prof of mine decades ago used to love to point out, "Business is business, and love is bullsh*t." And as an HR executive at a former employer once opined, "You think you're special? You think you'll be missed? Go pull your hand out of a bucket of water, and as long as the ripples last, that's how long you'll be missed." I have found both comments provided useful perspective over the years in dealing with multiple employers. As others here have pointed out, you're worth what you negotiate: nothing more. Never fall in love with your employer, and never, ever expect your employer to love you back.

[hithere]

Yup many of your Business prof’s observations are valid except in the unique world of unionized multi fleet airlines where it costs more to lay off pilots than it does to keep them employed at a lower minimum monthly guarantee. Maybe your asshole capitalist prof should have done some more research. Like in what other industry do the employees(pilots)who spend enormous amounts of money to get qualified and then take a 100 million dollar ac on a transcontinental mission with 100(at least) litigious pax to be treated like absolute shit the minute you deem
Us surplus? All of you MBA vielding losers would shit yourselves on a dark and dirty night in YYT but the minute you are parked safely at the gate you write our lay-off slips? Go F$0$ yourselves

[RippleRock]

It was never his objective to create more pilot jobs.....ever. We were burried somewhere in "operational costs" during the expansion process. We were never more special than that. In addition, there was no favour. More jobs occurred out of necessity, nothing more. We would be cut loose tomorrow if aircraft could suddenly fly themselves. Never forget that we weren't given "one dime" over and above what we contractually negotiated (in our wonderful 10 year deal) while the company was raking in huge profits. We were held firmly to the contract.

Not trying to be harsh, but I find your comments baffling.

1. Employee costs are operating costs everywhere - this is not unique to Air Canada.

2. What made you think you were "special" in the first place, or that your employer owed you favours of any kind?

3. Jobs "occur out of necessity, nothing more" everywhere, not just at Air Canada. Long-term successful employers hire skilled employees because they need them to run their business, not out of some misguided sense of altruism.

4. If you negotiated a binding contract, why would you have thought there should be any provision to pay you "one dime" more than what you had negotiated at the bargaining table? As a skilled professional, in a large-company environment, exactly what would you expect to happen other than that your counterparty would hold you firmly to the terms of a contract to which you and your colleagues had agreed?

As a prof of mine decades ago used to love to point out, "Business is business, and love is bullsh*t." And as an HR executive at a former employer once opined, "You think you're special? You think you'll be missed? Go pull your hand out of a bucket of water, and as long as the ripples last, that's how long you'll be missed." I have found both comments provided useful perspective over the years in dealing with multiple employers. As others here have pointed out, you're worth what you negotiate: nothing more. Never fall in love with your employer, and never, ever expect your employer to love you back.

Why don't you read what I posted again. This time from the top. My post were not meant to be read in isolation.

I was trying to illustrate that the relationship was one-sided and "pure" business. Respect was owed, but no thanks. I never once said that I felt a lack of "love". (most people get plenty elsewhere)

We had everything taken from us by an "outmaneuver" during FOS, orchestrated by CR with the cooperation of the Federal government. Our right to negotiate a contract free of coercion, manipulation and threat was denied us. Through this, the pilot group "gave" far more than all other groups combined, many times over. Numbers as high as $150,000,000 in lost WACON are being tossed around.

Some pilots at AC seem to think they "owe thanks" for saving the Corp. My position is that it wasn't saved or made great for our benefit, as it was not an alturistic play. Business almost never is. Some who think they owe "thanks" don't remember that not one dime of that hundred mill + which was stripped from our contract during the FOS play was returned, or even given any consideration during years of excess profits. In fact we were forced to continue to fund an "overfunded" pension when completely unnecessary. Acknowledging that "FOS donation" in some form would have been "respectful", not what you call "showing love".

I said we should give no thanks as we received nothing outside the contractural minimum. We should have been respected more for what was taken.
I also did say he should be respected as a shrewd business man.

[spinaxis]

"Thanks" don't pay my bills.

There is way too much of the attitude among AC pilots that we saved the airline. Or that we need to be ready to help any time there is a problem and it's slowly ruining our contract and the profession. Just look at what's going on at CX right now. Calin's wet dream to get all the pilots on a Z scale! And the sad part is he'd likely have no trouble manning the positions.

[YYZSaabGuy]

Yup many of your Business prof’s observations are valid except in the unique world of unionized multi fleet airlines where it costs more to lay off pilots than it does to keep them employed at a lower minimum monthly guarantee. Maybe your asshole capitalist prof should have done some more research. Like in what other industry do the employees(pilots)who spend enormous amounts of money to get qualified and then take a 100 million dollar ac on a transcontinental mission with 100(at least) litigious pax to be treated like absolute shit the minute you deem
Us surplus? All of you MBA vielding losers would shit yourselves on a dark and dirty night in YYT but the minute you are parked safely at the gate you write our lay-off slips? Go F$0$ yourselves

Professionals across the board invest money, time and effort to earn their qualifications: just ask a lawyer. Or an engineer. Or a physician. Or an architect. Pilots aren’t unique.

On the other hand: you're absolutely correct that responsibility for 200 – 300 souls on board means that the stakes in your profession are significantly different. So maybe take some of that venom and use it to convince your employer you are valuable and deserve a better deal. Getting your knickers in a knot on here really isn’t accomplishing that.

[I WAS Birddog]

Professionals across the board invest money, time and effort to earn their qualifications: just ask a lawyer. Or an engineer. Or a physician. Or an architect. Pilots aren’t unique.

On the other hand: you're absolutely correct that responsibility for 200 – 300 souls on board means that the stakes in your profession are significantly different. So maybe take some of that venom and use it to convince your employer you are valuable and deserve a better deal. Getting your knickers in a knot on here really isn’t accomplishing that.

I wish there were more of this mindset in the aviation industry. Brilliant post YYZSaabGuy....brilliant.

[Ratherbe]

Yes and there are some lawyers, doctors and engineers with an inflated sense of self worth too. We’re not alone in that category but it’s not the norm.

I just hope we can learn from our mistakes. You would think that pilots would be really great at that. There was a detailed external audit completed by ACPA following the FOS arbitration in 2012 that clearly laid out how we lost over $250M from what was on the table. Every ACPA member has access to it.

As for CR’s role in that process, he was proving a point. Work with me and I will work with you. Fight me and you will regret it. He sent out a letter to the pilots warning them and warned the MEC in person. It’s all in the audit. We chose to fight him. All I can say is it would have been far worse if someone like Milton had been in the room instead.

[CPT.HarshColdReality]

Yup many of your Business prof’s observations are valid except in the unique world of unionized multi fleet airlines where it costs more to lay off pilots than it does to keep them employed at a lower minimum monthly guarantee. Maybe your asshole capitalist prof should have done some more research. Like in what other industry do the employees(pilots)who spend enormous amounts of money to get qualified and then take a 100 million dollar ac on a transcontinental mission with 100(at least) litigious pax to be treated like absolute shit the minute you deem
Us surplus? All of you MBA vielding losers would shit yourselves on a dark and dirty night in YYT but the minute you are parked safely at the gate you write our lay-off slips? Go F$0$ yourselves

poetry!

[alkaseltzer]

Yup many of your Business prof’s observations are valid except in the unique world of unionized multi fleet airlines where it costs more to lay off pilots than it does to keep them employed at a lower minimum monthly guarantee. Maybe your asshole capitalist prof should have done some more research. Like in what other industry do the employees(pilots)who spend enormous amounts of money to get qualified and then take a 100 million dollar ac on a transcontinental mission with 100(at least) litigious pax to be treated like absolute shit the minute you deem
Us surplus? All of you MBA vielding losers would shit yourselves on a dark and dirty night in YYT but the minute you are parked safely at the gate you write our lay-off slips? Go F$0$ yourselves

poetry!

Patience Frodo.

Wait for the full hull losses to start rolling in the industry and you may see some drastic changes. Should happen over this winter season.

And you can also thank the Space Cadet Minister for encouraging this situation. His buddies at the Canadian Space Agency are not on wage subsidy.

[tbaylx]

Yup many of your Business prof’s observations are valid except in the unique world of unionized multi fleet airlines where it costs more to lay off pilots than it does to keep them employed at a lower minimum monthly guarantee. Maybe your asshole capitalist prof should have done some more research. Like in what other industry do the employees(pilots)who spend enormous amounts of money to get qualified and then take a 100 million dollar ac on a transcontinental mission with 100(at least) litigious pax to be treated like absolute shit the minute you deem
Us surplus? All of you MBA vielding losers would shit yourselves on a dark and dirty night in YYT but the minute you are parked safely at the gate you write our lay-off slips? Go F$0$ yourselves

poetry!

Patience Frodo.

Wait for the full hull losses to start rolling in the industry and you may see some drastic changes. Should happen over this winter season.

And you can also thank the Space Cadet Minister for encouraging this situation. His buddies at the Canadian Space Agency are not on wage subsidy.

Curious. Why now, with only the most senior pilots left operating for the most part, we'd see hull losses start to roll in this winter? Wouldn't that have been more likely a year ago with cadets and quick upgrades?

[spinaxis]

Fly with **some** 62-64 year olds and you might change your mind. I've had some terrifying experiences with what are supposed to be some the most experienced pilots we have. I find myself watching the very Sr Captains a lot closer than the ones in their 30s and 40s. The cognitive decline in many older pilots is very prevalent, loss of situational awareness, delay in action/quick thinking. And that's nothing against them personally, it's just what happens when you get old.

That said, I don't see anything crazy like a hull loss although look at SFO and YHZ and see what the experience levels were of the crews...

[GRK2]

Fly with **some** 62-64 year olds and you might change your mind. I've had some terrifying experiences with what are supposed to be some the most experienced pilots we have. I find myself watching the very Sr Captains a lot closer than the ones in their 30s and 40s. The cognitive decline in many older pilots is very prevalent, loss of situational awareness, delay in action/quick thinking. And that's nothing against them personally, it's just what happens when you get old.

That said, I don't see anything crazy like a hull loss although look at SFO and YHZ and see what the experience levels were of the crews...

Wow...are you a Psychologist? A practicing MD? Do you any ANY training that allows you to determine that your senior Captain has some sort of cognitive decline? Are you his medical examiner? Or do you think you're being funny? What you really are is smug, arrogant and one of the problems that has plagued your company (and yes to be fair it exists outside AC, but this is an AC forum.) Your willingness and self proclaimed ability to judge older and more senior pilots as being in some sort of decline only shows your own poor judgement and level of respect for your industry. You seem to think that you are somehow better than them. By the very scope of your post here you prove yourself to be one of the "Entitled Ones" who think they know more than us older pilots. It's likely I won't ever fly with you, but there will be one or two of us "older" people who won't tolerate your utter bullshit and they WILL leave you in the dust wondering just what happened. Sadly you won't even know it. You're just not that smart or good enough to figure it out.

[spinaxis]

It has nothing to be with being smug you won't convince me that as people get older they don't experience some kind of decline in their abilities and sharpness. It's not just aviation I'm talking about here. Not to say they still aren't decent pilots, but there's been a handful I've flown with that I PERSONALLY don't think should be behind the controls of an aircraft anymore. Again just a PERSONAL opinion. Or as minimum no longer in a command position. Not as a medical professional, but as the pilot sitting next to them that needs to cover for their mistakes. This includes small things like missing dozens of radio calls, to getting close to putting the aircraft in an undesired condition and GNEs. Things I notice the most is the "lag" between requiring to do something now, and doing it. Hunting and hesitation/hovering in the FMS and MCP mostly. It is what it is but I wont pretend there aren't some people who should have retired long ago. You can be offended all you want it doesn't change my opinion.... I did say in my original post that it was **some** pilots. I keep my opinions to myself in the flight deck so no, no one will leave me in the dust but you can be sure I'll be watching everything they do with a close eye when in a critical phase of flight.

[GRK2]

Spinner:

I'll just go ahead and figure you wrote that from the classroom of your flight school. You just decided that if a pilot is over 60 (62 is what you said) they need to be watched carefully by hawkeyed aces such as yourself? You just painted many very competent and accomplished pilots with a very big brush. Dozens of calls missed? Gross navigational errors? You must be fast at the trigger there Ace. So let me ask: Are you properly trained to judge these slow and hesitant pilots? Are you a training pilot? A line check Captain? An Instructor? Tell us how you know what you're actually looking for? Or are you simply just better? You joined Avcanada (under this current handle) less than a week ago and there are over 40 posts that denigrate and put down anyone who either disagrees with you or has a differing opinion. Do us a favour and go back to school, learn what it takes to be a good member of a flight crew and IF you did get to AC go back and take some more CRM. You will know what I am referring to if you have the experience you say you do.

PS: I'll give you a hint. You say that you keep your opinions to yourself in the airplane. Does that include watching and not learning or letting that mistake go unchallenged because you're better than the Captain, or is it just smugness? I bet you I know.

[DanWEC]

Fly with **some** 62-64 year olds and you might change your mind. I've had some terrifying experiences with what are supposed to be some the most experienced pilots we have. I find myself watching the very Sr Captains a lot closer than the ones in their 30s and 40s. The cognitive decline in many older pilots is very prevalent, loss of situational awareness, delay in action/quick thinking. And that's nothing against them personally, it's just what happens when you get old.

That said, I don't see anything crazy like a hull loss although look at SFO and YHZ and see what the experience levels were of the crews...

Materially, you are a worse pilot that most 62-64 year olds. You are only pointing out the exceptions to the rule.

[alkaseltzer]

Fly with **some** 62-64 year olds and you might change your mind. I've had some terrifying experiences with what are supposed to be some the most experienced pilots we have. I find myself watching the very Sr Captains a lot closer than the ones in their 30s and 40s. The cognitive decline in many older pilots is very prevalent, loss of situational awareness, delay in action/quick thinking. And that's nothing against them personally, it's just what happens when you get old.

That said, I don't see anything crazy like a hull loss although look at SFO and YHZ and see what the experience levels were of the crews...

Let me guess, you were an Express hire?

Age and loss of situational awareness is not a linear relationship. Have you met a cadet pilot? "Cue the instagram selfie"

The only cognitive decline on AvCanada is you. And your reckless posts on this. What's next? Jabs at gender or ethnicity?

Before you start quoting incidents at SFO and YHZ, get your damn technical facts right.

How many rides have you failed in the past? It takes two or three people to get a GNE. Not one. Are you even a professional airline pilot? Or fap to JustPlanes video documentaries?

"You don't see anything crazy" - you will be known as Stevie Wonder! Or is that an insult to him - I'm sure he has better CRM than you any day of the week.

Do us a favour and deactivate your account, you discriminatory nut.