IS ATC Your Best Bud?

[rookiepilot]

Now -- this post is for new pilots, especially to IFR CC flying, and out of their home area.

It isn't a "crap on ATC" post, so relax.

The answer: "Most of the time" ----they are your bud! --- working with you to get where you're going. Mainly, ATC givess fine service --- often, they are awesome, which means in weather they give a deviation around it before I've asked, even before I realized I needed it.

Very rarely, you have to make an assertive request, or say no -- "unable" to a clearance, and that's when you need to be careful, especially in weather, IMC, or both, without onboard radar.

They can't save you from your own poor decisions, or pluck you from the sky if you get into a horrible convective cell in a 172. It's too late. Better be thinking ahead. If you see something out the window that looks nasty, speak up! Ask what they see, -- some areas they can see cells, some they can't. Ask for a vector around the weather.

Everyone has an off day, maybe handling too much traffic, short staffed. In the end it's up to you to communicate.

I'll name 2 examples.

In one area far from home, traffic was busy and ATC wanted me to get back on course after a deviation. The problem was, that would have sent me into a nice looking storm line, with lightening showing on my stormscope. Lots of yellow + cells.

I said no three times, the last time rather firmly. I'll get back to you.

Second time I was IFR out west, at the end of a long leg (for me anyway) and had broke out of IMC into a really big VMC hole. I asked centre if I could go direct the airport VFR -- my bad "asking". They said no, and vectored me to join a line of turboprops - inside some clouds that looked like rotor clouds.

Uh, uh. Nope. I then cancelled IFR and descended VFR to the field, which was my right, and the smart decision. He didn't sound too pleased, but at the end it's choosing the safest decision.

You're PIC....

[shamrock104]

My best bud, no. I don't expect them to be. I find them for the most part to be extremely accommodating and professional. No different from Pilots I am sure. My shrink is also not by best bud but he is there to provide a service.

[Heliian]

Your second example is on you, if it's busy ifr then they want you to stay in the pattern with your plan. I'm annoyed by it and I'm not even in atc.

You are still the pic so do what you perceive as safe. Just because you pop into vmc while ifr doesn't mean that you should drop your ifr and complain about having to go back into imc.

Atc usually has a bigger picture than you and they need to move the pieces into place.

[Donald]

ATC has been very helpful to me over the years, but it’s a 2-way street. In your first example, just saying “no” is fairly useless. Telling them why, such as “unable, that heading will put me into weather, I could do (...) instead” would help them plan and problem solve with you.

Is ATC my “best bud”? No.

Are they an integral part of IFR flying? Yes.

[rookiepilot]

Your second example is on you, if it's busy ifr then they want you to stay in the pattern with your plan. I'm annoyed by it and I'm not even in atc.

You are still the pic so do what you perceive as safe. Just because you pop into vmc while ifr doesn't mean that you should drop your ifr and complain about having to go back into imc.

Go back into rotor clouds in a light single? Nope. Everyone else was a heavy turboprop or a jet, and they were reporting turbulence. Yellow flag right there.

I'd already experienced mountain wave on that leg, and shared that with ATC.

I'd do the same thing again. My safety trumps ATC's traffic flow issues, and it was a huge area of VMC, miles wide.

Respectfully. This isn't a debate thread. BTW. I'm not interested in debating my decisions.

It's a teaching thread for new pilots......in light airplanes.

[rookiepilot]

ATC has been very helpful to me over the years, but it’s a 2-way street. In your first example, just saying “no” is fairly useless. Telling them why, such as “unable, that heading will put me into weather, I could do (...) instead” would help them plan and problem solve with you.

Exactly what I did in my first example, and I know they could see the weather too on their primary radar in that areas. I reiterated I needed to stay on my current heading for 30 -40 more miles or so, paralleling the line, until it petered out.

I'm reasonably comfortable communicating productively with ATC.

They just kept asking for me to "get back on course". It's a busy corridor, I get it, but it' wasn't safe in my judgement.

I'll reiterate 99% of my ATC interactions have been extremely positive.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Talking to ATC is like any other communication between two humans. If you are clear concise and polite you are more likely to get what you want.

Biggest thing I see with new pilots is the mic gets engaged before the brain. The long painful rambling stream of consciousness initial calls to terminal I hear all the time make my head hurt and I am just a pilot in the airspace not the poor controller who has deal with the guy.

But and it is a big but, is you are ultimately responsible for the safety of your flight. ATC may ask you to do something you don’t want to do because it works for them, not because they are bad, mean, nasty etc etc, they are just doing their job. It is up to you to refuse the instruction, say why and tell them what you will accept.

For new pilots the 3 most important phrases

1) say again
2) I don’t understand what you want me to do
3) unable due to XXX, I can accept YYY

General points

1) Talk less listen more
2) When you are told to "standby" DO NOT REPLY ! The whole point of the command is to tell you to STFU because the controller can't listen to you
3) When told to "Squawk Ident". Just push the button on the transponder. ATC will know you got the message when she/he sees the ident on the screen.

Remember if you respond with your registration to a clearance you own it. If you are not absolutely clear don’t just say GABC.

Occasionally where I have felt abused by terminal or centre I have called the ACC when I landed and talked to the supervisor. One time it was very valuable conversation as he explained what happened and why in this particular case it had to play out the way it did. Another time he took ownership of what was just terrible controlling. It did not change anything but I felt better

If the freq is not too busy and a controller went the extra mile I always make a point of thanking them. If the controller did something extra amazing, I phone the ACC supervisor and give him an ATTABOY

Finally there are lots of youtube videos which can help you perfect your comms skills. This is my favorite

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqkOi2AdjLw

[tsgarp]

Your second example is on you, if it's busy ifr then they want you to stay in the pattern with your plan. I'm annoyed by it and I'm not even in atc.

You are still the pic so do what you perceive as safe. Just because you pop into vmc while ifr doesn't mean that you should drop your ifr and complain about having to go back into imc.

Go back into rotor clouds in a light single? Nope. Everyone else was a heavy turboprop or a jet, and they were reporting turbulence. Yellow flag right there.

I'd already experienced mountain wave on that leg, and shared that with ATC.

I'd do the same thing again. My safety trumps ATC's traffic flow issues, and it was a huge area of VMC, miles wide.

Respectfully. This isn't a debate thread. BTW. I'm not interested in debating my decisions.

It's a teaching thread for new pilots......in light airplanes.

The key learning point from this experience, especially for new pilots, is personal limits and preflight planning. Check the GFAs and the PIREPS prior to T/O. Decide your personal limits, such as the maximum level of turbulence you are willing to accept, and if the Wx contains phenomena beyond those personal limits then stay on the ground.

On a related note, just because someone has an IFR rating does not mean they should be flying in hard IFR. Hard IFR, especially in mountains, is not for amateurs. Safe IFR requires experience and constant practice; there are a number of accident reports concerning pilots who learned that the hard way.

[tower controller]

“Exactly what I did in my first example, and I know they could see the weather too on their primary radar in that areas”

Just want to weigh in on this...

A lot of atc positions don’t have prime radar, and without prime radar we don’t see any weather. Even with prime radar we don’t see near as much as weather radar in an aircraft.

I’ve been in the tower with significant precipitation falling and no indication on our radar display.

[rookiepilot]

Noted, Tsgarp.

In my mountain flight example, neither the mountain wave, which was mild, nor the rotor clouds I observed were on the GFA or Pireps.
I do try to do my homework you know, sometimes stuff shows up.

I had plans and alternate plans, always do.

At no time was it even remotely close to a dangerous situation, and I cancelled IFR to make the remainder of the flight safer and more comfortable for my pax.

It wasn't hard IFR either. It was a transient area of IMC caused by distant forest fires.

I'll also note, I've read about numerous accidents due to passivity of pilots in working with ATC and not communicating their situation clearly.

[rookiepilot]

“Exactly what I did in my first example, and I know they could see the weather too on their primary radar in that areas”

Just want to weigh in on this...

A lot of atc positions don’t have prime radar, and without prime radar we don’t see any weather. Even with prime radar we don’t see near as much as weather radar in an aircraft.

I’ve been in the tower with significant precipitation falling and no indication on our radar display.

This area did have prime radar. Even if they didn't I said "I'll advise when I can go back on course, I require to stay on this deviation".

Should be the end of it.

And I'm ready to stop posting as the response seem to assume I'm a bumbling idiot just because I'm a GA pilot.

Many of us are. Not all though. I've tried very, very hard to fly safely within limits, doesn't mean the unexpected doesn't happen with weather occasionally.

[rookiepilot]

Now -- this post is for new pilots, especially to IFR CC flying, and out of their home area.

It isn't a "crap on ATC" post, so relax.

Deserves a RT.

BPF really appreciate your thoughts. Excellent and agree.

[Donald]

Conversations online can be interesting, and tone is difficult to interpret.

In your original post, for the first situation, "I said no three times, the last time rather firmly. I'll get back to you." is different than "I'll advise when I can go back on course, I require to stay on this deviation".

I simply pointed out how providing more info to ATC than "No", might help.

Never called you a bumbling idiot, not sure why you are so defensive.

For what it's worth, I think YEG center is the best in the country.

[rookiepilot]

Conversations online can be interesting, and tone is difficult to interpret.

In your original post, for the first situation, "I said no three times, the last time rather firmly. I'll get back to you." is different than "I'll advise when I can go back on course, I require to stay on this deviation".

I simply pointed out how providing more info to ATC than "No", might help.

Never called you a bumbling idiot, not sure why you are so defensive.

For what it's worth, I think YEG center is the best in the country.

NP.

I paraphrased -- my mistake.

My second, detailed answer was what I said.

My first, was what I thought ---

[digits_]

I got vectored into a mountain once as a low time PPL. Amazing how hard it is to say no at that stage, even if the alternative is certain death.

[tower controller]

And I'm ready to stop posting as the response seem to assume I'm a bumbling idiot just because I'm a GA pilot.

Unfortunately on forum's like this sometimes intent is misconstrued. In 35 years in ATS in a variety of positions I've dealt with a wide range of pilots, from flight training operations to airlines and militaries from all over the world. Some GA pilots rank right up there in terms of professionalism and knowledge and some don't, just like some airline operations are more professional than others.

My intention was to advise pilots that there are limitations on what we can see and that our radar is not designed for seeing weather.

[rookiepilot]

And I'm ready to stop posting as the response seem to assume I'm a bumbling idiot just because I'm a GA pilot.

Unfortunately on forum's like this sometimes intent is misconstrued. In 35 years in ATS in a variety of positions I've dealt with a wide range of pilots, from flight training operations to airlines and militaries from all over the world. Some GA pilots rank right up there in terms of professionalism and knowledge and some don't, just like some airline operations are more professional than others.

My intention was to advise pilots that there are limitations on what we can see and that our radar is not designed for seeing weather.

The funny thing is I never asked the controller what his weather was painting. No need. I was visual with an obvious line right beside me that he kept trying to vector me into. I was extremely professional but after the third time felt like saying No means No.