A320 CA pay in Cathay Pacific after the "Paycut"

[smooth]

I will attached a COS18 PDF file for pilot contract for Cathay Pacific (Effective from 21 October 2020)

Let's look at the new CA pay for A320 after the "Pay cut"

pilot schedule comes out 15th of every month
After the pay reduction, an A320 Captain 4:
32- 35 monthly guarantee 105,595 HKD = 389,298.78 NTD = 13,620.65 USD = 17,741.65 CAD(For 50 Block hour per month will be $25, 300CAD)
Block hour rate: 3,017 HKD = 11,122.82 NTD 389.16 USD = 506.90 CAD
Target annual block hours for A320 = 600. 50 Per month.
allowance: 4,500 HKD = 16,590.22 NTD = 580.45 USD = 756.07 CAD.
GDO Callout Allowance: 4,500 HKD = 16,590.22 NTD = 580.45 USD = 756.07 CAD.
Ground Duty Allowance: 4,500 HKD = 16,590.22 NTD = 580.45 USD = 756.07 CAD.
SIM Crew-Up Allowance: 4,500 HKD = 16,590.22 NTD = 580.45 USD = 756.07 CAD.
Monthly Allowance: 33,000 HKD = 121,661.63 HKD = 4,256.66 USD = 5,544.53 CAD.

A320 Block Hour Rates (HKD/CAD)
First Officer 1
1,375.00 = $230 CAD
First Officer 2
1,666.69 = $277 CAD
Captain 1
2,083.34 = $347 CAD
Captain 2
2,357.03 = $392 CAD
Captain 3
2,666.69 = $444 CAD
Captain 4
3,017.00 = $506 CAD

In Hong Kong income tax are very low, starting from 2% and top at 17%. So i just gonna leave this here

CX COS18 Employee Handbook (Rev 5).pdf

(455.51 KiB) Downloaded 681 times

[Dronepiper]

They get 4 paid sick days.... per month

[smooth]

canadian pilots are healthier we don't need sick day

They get 4 paid sick days.... per month

[altiplano]

Canadian Super Pilots, long duty days, fly all night, who needs an RP?

It only stands to reason that we would never get sick either.

[foxincyber]

The pay scale seems much higher then canadian pay scale but there are a lot hidden cost living in Hong Kong. Unless you are single without family.

First is the rent. Pre covid, you have to pay CAD $4000 minimum for a 2 bedroom in discovery bay. Which is the expat living area of Hong Kong. Even if you choice near the airport in Tung Chong. It goes around $3000 for 2 bedrooms.

Second HK tax is 10% for family and 15% for single. if you think of commuting to and from canada. You still have to pay canadian tax if your family is living in Canada. But you can subtract the amount you paid in HK

Third is kids tuition. HK tuition cost around CAD $10,000 to $30,000 per year per kid.

Lastly it’s the everyday cost. if you fancy for a real steak. Expect it to cost double what you pay in Canada. Also don’t even think of owning a car. Just the parking spot can cost you a fortune

At the end, money alone does say it all. It’s all about the life style you want

[smooth]

Year 1 CX 320 FO $230 CAD a hour

vs

Year 5 AC 320 FO
Day rate: $109.52
Night rate: $122.49

[dash8driver]

The cost of rent in Toronto seems like it’s coming ever closer to near the Hong Kong Airport at $3000: Average for 2 bedroom in YYZ is just under $2500/month.

[Daniel Cooper]

No point in sour grapes. Every person I've worked with at AC is smart and talented enough to have landed a job at Cathay if desired. I know because acquaintances of mine that did go...well let's say they would have struggled in Canada. How many at AC would trade their job today with an expat on a work permit?

[altiplano]

The pay scale seems much higher then canadian pay scale but there are a lot hidden cost living in Hong Kong. Unless you are single without family.

First is the rent. Pre covid, you have to pay CAD $4000 minimum for a 2 bedroom in discovery bay. Which is the expat living area of Hong Kong. Even if you choice near the airport in Tung Chong. It goes around $3000 for 2 bedrooms.

Second HK tax is 10% for family and 15% for single. if you think of commuting to and from canada. You still have to pay canadian tax if your family is living in Canada. But you can subtract the amount you paid in HK

Third is kids tuition. HK tuition cost around CAD $10,000 to $30,000 per year per kid.

Lastly it’s the everyday cost. if you fancy for a real steak. Expect it to cost double what you pay in Canada. Also don’t even think of owning a car. Just the parking spot can cost you a fortune

At the end, money alone does say it all. It’s all about the life style you want

It's a different lifestyle, no doubt. And maybe but for everyone, but the same can be said for every country and city in this world.

So the great equaliser wherever you are is money...

and there is no doubt that despite the high cost of living, and HKG is not that far above YVR/YYZ, and despite what I heard was a 40-60% pay cut that Cathay Pilots make a significant pile more money than Pilots in this country on comparable types for doing the same job with the same responsibility.

Then they pay low taxes, like 1/3 or 1/4 of, or even less of what we would in this country, they don't pay taxes on investments gains either.

Private school in this country? $28K for the school near me. Cost of living? Heating? Telecom? Insurance? Tax at every corner? That's Canada... and it's higher.

Car? You don't need one in HKG with robust transit and connections across the city and to the airport, you need one in Canada 99% of the time, that's a high cost.

I've spent a lot of days and nights in HKG and going out for food and drinks in Central was no more expensive than going out in Vancouver, and in fact cheaper - like really cheap - once you get away from the expat spots. Good shopping to. I buy a ton of stuff when I'm over there.

Anyway, it is what it is... but don't be fiooled that all that pay gets eaten up on high cost of living. And even if that were the case of irrelevant, as I said pay is the big equaliser. And Canadian Pilots, especially Canadian 320 & 737 Pilots, are far far far behind the rest of the world. US/EU/ME/Asia... I don't know, maybe we're beating the guys in West Africa or Mexico or something...

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

since when did Cathay start flying the A320??

[altiplano]

Cathay "Dragon" operated the 320s, but the group rolled up that operation in a cost cutting restructuring earlier this year.

There have been media reports and commentary from Cathay that they will bring smaller aircraft into its "mainline" fleet to continue to serve the regional flying post:covid.

They certainly couldn't get all the 320s off their books overnight, so they have the aircraft, and they are going to need them to feed a significant part of the recovery. I expect that the inclusion of 320 pay in the contract is to serve that end.

[Shinyjetsyndrome]

This thread is a null point because the Cathay group has started layoffs too now that the government wage subsidy is over. CX cut the bottom 200 pilots and cancelled all starting classes. KA ceased to exist overnight. For the remaining pilots at CX, management has conveniently removed the last in-first out clause of the contract that everyone was essentially forced/heavily nudged to sign (COS18). Now that it's gone, expect many more layoffs, particularly on the 777 fleet which is mostly sitting idle. Before my class was cancelled, I was looking at a 3-bedroom house (700 square feet) for about $3800 CAD/month. A larger portion of the salary is productivity based now too and with the huge surplus of pilots they have, you won't be getting much when considering the living costs. For some on the earlier contracts who just switched to COS18, they're experiencing about a 60% paycut.

[twa22]

This thread is a null point because the Cathay group has started layoffs too now that the government wage subsidy is over. CX cut the bottom 200 pilots and cancelled all starting classes. KA ceased to exist overnight. For the remaining pilots at CX, management has conveniently removed the last in-first out clause of the contract that everyone was essentially forced/heavily nudged to sign (COS18). Now that it's gone, expect many more layoffs, particularly on the 777 fleet which is mostly sitting idle. Before my class was cancelled, I was looking at a 3-bedroom house (700 square feet) for about $3800 CAD/month. A larger portion of the salary is productivity based now too and with the huge surplus of pilots they have, you won't be getting much when considering the living costs. For some on the earlier contracts who just switched to COS18, they're experiencing about a 60% paycut.

This sums it up neatly

Also, just go on pprune and read the fragrant harbour threads... it's just a ton of complaining from those said pilots who took a massive paycut by essentially being forced onto COS18... it's really depressing and annoying to read. While the situation is not ideal, the fact that every single pilot kept their job until roughly 2 weeks ago, I would say is a testament to the company trying to prevent layoffs, but reality is, it was inevitable. It's pretty obvious that it's unsustainable to keep everyone on payroll when you basically have no income. Does it suck for those legacy guys on their 20 plus year old contracts to get shifted to what is a considerably much worse one? Yea, it is... but on paper, it's still a pretty damn good one compared to other legacy carriers around the world. It does makes sense to see complaints about being forced on a crappier contract when you've had it so good, but I think that a lot of them don't realize what they still have, given the WAWCON at other places, especially during a time like this

[Shinyjetsyndrome]

This thread is a null point because the Cathay group has started layoffs too now that the government wage subsidy is over. CX cut the bottom 200 pilots and cancelled all starting classes. KA ceased to exist overnight. For the remaining pilots at CX, management has conveniently removed the last in-first out clause of the contract that everyone was essentially forced/heavily nudged to sign (COS18). Now that it's gone, expect many more layoffs, particularly on the 777 fleet which is mostly sitting idle. Before my class was cancelled, I was looking at a 3-bedroom house (700 square feet) for about $3800 CAD/month. A larger portion of the salary is productivity based now too and with the huge surplus of pilots they have, you won't be getting much when considering the living costs. For some on the earlier contracts who just switched to COS18, they're experiencing about a 60% paycut.

This sums it up neatly

Also, just go on pprune and read the fragrant harbour threads... it's just a ton of complaining from those said pilots who took a massive paycut by essentially being forced onto COS18... it's really depressing and annoying to read. While the situation is not ideal, the fact that every single pilot kept their job until roughly 2 weeks ago, I would say is a testament to the company trying to prevent layoffs, but reality is, it was inevitable. It's pretty obvious that it's unsustainable to keep everyone on payroll when you basically have no income. Does it suck for those legacy guys on their 20 plus year old contracts to get shifted to what is a considerably much worse one? Yea, it is... but on paper, it's still a pretty damn good one compared to other legacy carriers around the world. It does makes sense to see complaints about being forced on a crappier contract when you've had it so good, but I think that a lot of them don't realize what they still have, given the WAWCON at other places, especially during a time like this

Those pprune folks are the loud minority unfortunately and they paint a terrible picture of the CX pilot group. Yes some of the changes are quite frustrating, but the vast majority of the group are just happy to still have a job and grateful for how long the company avoided layoffs. Most people have better ways to deal with their grievances than venting on an online forum. The pay cuts suck, especially when you build a life based on the higher salary (eg: some senior guys literally live in the four seasons...), but those pay scales are unfortunately not cost competitive in the 21st century. The COS18 contract is definitely a step back though. There's only two pay steps for SO/FO and four for captains. It's about a 4-5 year upgrade from SO to FO and around 15 years to Cpt, so imagine no pay raises for nearly a decade as an FO. Additionally, there's no longer a common seniority list clause, reduced benefits, and almost every portion of the contract is subject to amendments by the company at their discretion including the target block hours. CX is hardly a career airline anymore. There's just not enough stability. That said, once hiring begins again, I still believe that it's a good opportunity for someone who's young and single to gain some 705 experience, pay off those student debts, and see some cool parts of the world before coming back to Canada to fly at the majors. If you find yourself at a 705 here already, don't even bother.

[smooth]

They going to take a320 fleet from dragon air that shut down this month

since when did Cathay start flying the A320??

[twa22]

This thread is a null point because the Cathay group has started layoffs too now that the government wage subsidy is over. CX cut the bottom 200 pilots and cancelled all starting classes. KA ceased to exist overnight. For the remaining pilots at CX, management has conveniently removed the last in-first out clause of the contract that everyone was essentially forced/heavily nudged to sign (COS18). Now that it's gone, expect many more layoffs, particularly on the 777 fleet which is mostly sitting idle. Before my class was cancelled, I was looking at a 3-bedroom house (700 square feet) for about $3800 CAD/month. A larger portion of the salary is productivity based now too and with the huge surplus of pilots they have, you won't be getting much when considering the living costs. For some on the earlier contracts who just switched to COS18, they're experiencing about a 60% paycut.

This sums it up neatly

Also, just go on pprune and read the fragrant harbour threads... it's just a ton of complaining from those said pilots who took a massive paycut by essentially being forced onto COS18... it's really depressing and annoying to read. While the situation is not ideal, the fact that every single pilot kept their job until roughly 2 weeks ago, I would say is a testament to the company trying to prevent layoffs, but reality is, it was inevitable. It's pretty obvious that it's unsustainable to keep everyone on payroll when you basically have no income. Does it suck for those legacy guys on their 20 plus year old contracts to get shifted to what is a considerably much worse one? Yea, it is... but on paper, it's still a pretty damn good one compared to other legacy carriers around the world. It does makes sense to see complaints about being forced on a crappier contract when you've had it so good, but I think that a lot of them don't realize what they still have, given the WAWCON at other places, especially during a time like this

That said, once hiring begins again, I still believe that it's a good opportunity for someone who's young and single to gain some 705 experience, pay off those student debts, and see some cool parts of the world before coming back to Canada to fly at the majors. If you find yourself at a 705 here already, don't even bother.

I agree with everything you said, but I think this quoted part is what should sum up this thread. What I will also add is that, while the numbers at CX, even on COS18 may look WAY better then what Air Canada's numbers are, there's all the other factories that have been mentioned that need to be taken into account.

I think where people get hung up on AC a lot is the 4 year flat pay... I definitely don't agree with it, but one has to look at the long run, and if I had the same opportunity to pick AC or CX, it would be a no brainer to pick AC.

It's never as clear as the what the numbers might have you think

[Bleed Air]

You have to also note that the numbers posted above are for Capt 4 at CX, and there are only 4 steps total, so that is the highest any Capt would ever get paid for flying the monthly min hour guarantee on that fleet.
Also unlike AC, CX doesn't have different pay scales for different fleets so that figure would be the same for a Capt 4 on the 747/777/A350/A330/A320 if they flew their min monthly guarantee.
Also a Capt 4, would have previously been anyone from a SCN 12- and up, so a crew member with likely over 20 years with the company.
That Capt 4 would also unlikely fly the A320 as their seniority would enable them to stay on the fleet of their choice.
So how does that pay compare with a AC 777/787 Capt at the top of their scale.
The pay is also based on Block hours, no credits or factoring for this or that, also no credit of block hours for reserve, now lots of stuff is done basically for free.
I won't get into the cost of living in HK.
I didn't go to HK "for the fresh air and culture" I went to get ahead, and I've done well but when the day comes when I'm not getting ahead enough monthly to put up with it we're out.
And that day looks to be closely approaching.

[pualani-mapleleaf]

Wow, that top/first post is grossly mis-leading. Anyone interested in Cx these days (IF they were actually hiring!) needs to talk to fellow Canadian aircrew currently at Cx about the actual and factual deal with COS 18. As mentioned already, those posted rosy numbers above would take well over 20 years to achieve from date of joining. By that time you would be wide body at AC, likely making significantly more when you include all contractual items.

[iflyforpie]

I’ve known/met quite a few ex-CX guys over the years. A-scale (before it was even A-scale) and B-scale who came back here to Canada to work in quiet and low paying sectors of aviation.

Money is the only thing going for it.. sort of (I believe D scale is a thing now and no more paid accommodations in HK). They work you to death, you are isolated if you have family back home, even before COVID-19, HK had been rioting for a year, and just waiting for the day the CCP stops beating around the bush and takes over everything.

What do you do then? Join the bottom of the list at AC or WJ? Not now!

As an expat, I’ve learned that you have to have an exit strategy. It’s not if but when.

[Hughed]

I suggest forget CX. The new contract and manning levels is designed to make sure you never exceed the minimum block hours. That base pay makes it completely unsustainable in Hong Kong. Most are on a 2 year transition where education and housing is protected, but it’s policy now and not an agreement, which means they can change their minds at the drop of a hat.
Low tax rate? For now, but the government has ran up a huge deficit since the start of Covid, so expect taxes to rise soon.
Also, unless you have a Permanent Residence card, you won’t get hired. The government has stopped all extensions to visas to those who just moved here. My guess is that management anticipated this, which is why only 100 pilots were made redundant. Base closures are on the horizon, and many non-PR will have to resign and go home. And to add insult to injury, the communists have completely taken over the Legislative Council, so all non-Chinese need not apply.
If you have family, you’re looking at a minimum of $4500 CAD per month in rent (forget about buying), and education is at $19000 CAD per year with a $13000 allowance. Food at the grocery store is X4 compared to Canada and general retail is way more expensive.
Cathay was once a great place to work, now it’s just an average job in the most expensive city in the world.
After the axe came down, not one expat has plans on staying here. What does that say to you?