Cargo TA

[fish4life]

And an arbitrator will probably say “you thought 10% less was ok on the 767 so 10% less is ok for the 777”

[thenoflyzone]

Just curious - assuming the MOA ratifies, what if 6 months from now AC announces that the 6 777-200’s are not coming out of the desert again for mainline passenger ops, but then the next day offers to bring them out with a cargo conversion and 90% pay?

There is no B77L passenger to freighter conversion program. So it can't happen.

They can bring those birds back, remove the seats and do what they are currently doing with the B77Ws and A330s, but that's about it. And it's nowhere near as efficient as a full freighter conversion.

It's more likely we will see some B77W go p2f. The 77W p2f program was announced last year, and first frames wont be operational until 2023.

[teacher]

Easy NO for me.

Same plane, same routes than same pay. It’s simple.

How about anyone touching the cargo division from the CEO down to the rampie take a 10% pay cut as well?

Yah, didn’t think so.

[discountpilot]

Just curious - assuming the MOA ratifies, what if 6 months from now AC announces that the 6 777-200’s are not coming out of the desert again for mainline passenger ops, but then the next day offers to bring them out with a cargo conversion and 90% pay?

There is no B77L passenger to freighter conversion program. So it can't happen.

They can bring those birds back, remove the seats and do what they are currently doing with the B77Ws and A330s, but that's about it. And it's nowhere near as efficient as a full freighter conversion.

It's more likely we will see some B77W go p2f. The 77W p2f program was announced last year, and first frames wont be operational until 2023.

I'm personally more worried about the 330's....

[330heavy]

Costly to do P2F. Here's a few:

767-300F : 14M USD
330-300 P2F : 18M USD
777-300 ERBDSF : 28-30M USD
Source : IBA/ISTAT

Add in the time and cost of a heavy check while it's stripped. If they are willing to spend that much coin, what's 10% of pilot salaries to them? Nothing! It's for future suppression and degrading of T&Cs

[RippleRock]

It's been stated before, but there is contract language covering the start-up of a dedicated cargo op. There is ZERO need to go off-contract once again.

This MEC has proven that they are unable to follow the contract and instead, chose to negotiate concessionary side deals.

10% reduction is an insult. Period. It would have no direct financial bearing on the viability of the operation to pay normal contract rates. None.

Through the use of a "burning platform" and a short voting timeline for a contract ammedment that has no "snap-back" clause to mend the obvious resulting unity divide that yet another pay scale would bring, proves that we are being disrespected as a group by our own MEC.

This MEC has gone completely rogue by once again failing to adhere to the contract we signed with the Company. That contract is there to protect us, not to be treated like toilet paper.

They should all resign immediately.

[discountpilot]

We had the opportunity to evict some from their long standing LEC Chair positions recently but the members felt keeping the status quo and below average representation was best. Great work everyone.

[altiplano]

The MEC bit on the same argument from TA1 when the LCC was introduced.

That the aircraft were going to be retired to the desert, or in this case worse - sold to competitors who will start up and do the flying.

Did anyone really think they would stop flying to Cancun and Florida if we didn't create a second tier? That we had to capture the flying?

Does anyone think if there is money to be made in a sector that has seen and will see more significant growth - that's straight out of Rovinescu's mouth - that they will walk away for a few bucks an hour? Remember, businesses and stocks, thrive on growth.

They have had a run on hiring in the cargo department getting ready for this.

They already have the plan in place.

They have already set up the slots for the conversions.

They are just seeing now if we'll bite for a concession to do the work we own. We don't need a vote on doing the work, it's in our contract, we have had freighters in the past, this is only a vote on the wage concession.

And of course it's a - "Hurry up and vote" because they want to announce the new contracts and strategy to boost the stock and start selling the new cargo product. It isn't so they can develop the business plan, that's already done...

Or here's an idea -
why don't they ask the dispatchers for a 2% discount,
the rampies for 2%,
the AME's for 2%,
the executives/managers for 2%,
and then the pilots can come in with the other 2%..

There's your 10%.

What? Nobody else will work for second (third for us) tier wages? Not even 2%? So why the F-k should we take 10%? WE ARE THE ONLY ONES CONTEMPLATING CONCESSIONS FOR THIS.

And remember the most recent hurry up rush jobs.

COV MOA 1 - Pilots first to rush and give and days later CEWs announced, had we taken the time to vote CEWs would have come before it was approved.

COV MOA 2 - Rushed vote, webinars not even done and the vote was almost over, within days Transat acquisition announced... riiiight....

Now what? CARGO MOA rush job... then what will we hear?

- Industry specific aid deal reached
- Corporation in fact already has aircraft at an MRO getting converted
- Vaccine distribution ahead of schedule
- ??? we don't know, we are at a disadvantage when we rush

This is a permanent concession, not only on 767 freighters, but all types that may follow. Will we see a transfer of 777s jobs to tier 2? It's possible.

If we vote 'Yes', based on our history, we will end up having to trade other wage and working conditions to fix issues we can or can't foresee... we have seen tremendous stagnation in our contract fixing/improving divides like the LCC wawcon and DC pension. Why are we going to introduce another divide?

This will be some if the most difficult and unproductive flying at the airline, do you really want to do it for less?

This isn't a vote about us doing or capturing freighter flying - it's ours, there is no question.

This is a vote about concessions and division. Do you really want to vote for that?

If we vote 'No' and the flying doesn't happen - long shot based on executive/industry comments/sentiments - it's still a win because we have not divided ourselves.

[Fanblade]

Alti,

The problem isn’t this MOU. The MOU is rather a symptom of the problem.

Until we deal with the actual problem, the symptoms will stay persistent.

It’s not the people within ACPA. It’s the lack of proper resources needed to make good decisions.

ACPA doesn’t have anyone that I know of with intimate cargo operations knowledge on staff. They certainly didn’t during the cargo jet wet lease trial. ACPA has trouble getting good advise because that usually takes time. We get put under time pressure and eventually shoot from the hip.

We are simply not nimble enough. Business is fast paced and won’t wait. That is the problem. Until we address the root problem we will keep shooting from the hip and blowing off toes.

We missed an opportunity this fall during elections. There is a very good chance that the merger with Transat won’t give another opportunity to vote ACPA out.

Two more years for another opportunity.

[RVR6000]

Is there any language at all to stop them from reducing other WB positions when adding these freighter positions? That seems critical to me. We aren't protecting any jobs if that's not there, and worse than that we are trading good positions for worse ones.

Cargo in WB aircraft right now is under a TC let and will expire soon. I don’t think they will reduce WB positions and these freighters are in addition to the current fleet. Sounds like they needed dedicated fins. My worry is the 10% pay cut and the precedent it makes should there be a dedicated B777 freighter in the future.

If we start a dedicated cargo op, and the converted freighters stop flying and that flying is taken over by the 767... what do you think all those pilots who have been kept busy with these 3000+ cargo flights will do?

Bid reduction, forced to the C767 Freighter for 10% less.

Just watch.

We are all so dumb.

It’s the lack of engagement from the YVR and YUL crowd and their satisfaction with status quo. If this POS passes it’s on those 2 bases.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Why would anyone in their right mind vote yes to this? How is ACPA gonna "sell it" this time?

They should be embarrased for even putting something like this forward to the membership. What a joke.

[RVR6000]

Why would anyone in their right mind vote yes to this? How is ACPA gonna "sell it" this time?

They should be embarrased for even putting something like this forward to the membership. What a joke.

If this is voted down, there should be a non-confidence vote for MM, he needs to go. He clearly does not have the best interest in mind for the pilot group.

[nowind]

I dont come here often but I did this time to see what everyone is thinking about this deal. If it passes, it will be on all of us, not just YUL or YVR. We will need to accept it and live with it for a long time. There is a big debate going on in YUL right now and its hard to say what side will win. Looks like the majority here is against this proposal, so I think we all need to use our personal network to call, text or meet with a maximum of people and tell them the long term effects of this plan. I feel like a lot of people are missinformed and unsure to what is the best decision for the group. Lets show the real numbers to everyone and try to explain them that long term concessions are not good for anyone. I feel like a real talk with someone you know is often more efficient than forum talk, so this is just my idea. At the end I respect every single opinion, I just think that we can help some to make a better decision.

[Ratherbe]

MM is the spokesman for the MEC and not a very good one in my opinion. I raised my doubts about him and TL during their election. However, recalling him will have little impact on decisions coming from the MEC unless of course he is not doing his main job - ensuring the MEC is making good decisions based on thorough due diligence and debate.

What I want to hear today on the webinar is what we got in exchange for the 10% reduction in pay. On the other hand if it’s just the Company taking advantage of the current situation then we have a problem. The entire MEC should be accountable if this is rejected.

I think most of us would love to see a cargo operation. Especially those either furloughed or surplus.

[discountpilot]

Or here's an idea -
why don't they ask the dispatchers for a 2% discount,
the rampies for 2%,
the AME's for 2%,
the executives/managers for 2%,
and then the pilots can come in with the other 2%..

There's your 10%.

What? Nobody else will work for second (third for us) tier wages? Not even 2%? So why the F-k should we take 10%? WE ARE THE ONLY ONES CONTEMPLATING CONCESSIONS FOR THIS.

Because it's easiest to ask from the pilots, because it's easier to track. How would they track a %2 pay cut on all those other positions when the employees just run between ML/Cargo/Rouge etc. Pilots are rostered to one plane so for the company it's the easiest way to show savings on that one type. Not saying it's right, but that's likely a bit part of the reason why.

[discountpilot]

Why would anyone in their right mind vote yes to this? How is ACPA gonna "sell it" this time?

They should be embarrased for even putting something like this forward to the membership. What a joke.

If this is voted down, there should be a non-confidence vote for MM, he needs to go. He clearly does not have the best interest in mind for the pilot group.

MM cares for himself, and himself alone.

MM is the spokesman for the MEC and not a very good one in my opinion. I raised my doubts about him and TL during their election. However, recalling him will have little impact on decisions coming from the MEC unless of course he is not doing his main job - ensuring the MEC is making good decisions based on thorough due diligence and debate.

What I want to hear today on the webinar is what we got in exchange for the 10% reduction in pay. On the other hand if it’s just the Company taking advantage of the current situation then we have a problem. The entire MEC should be accountable if this is rejected.

I think most of us would love to see a cargo operation. Especially those either furloughed or surplus.

Based on what I've heard it's like a little clique with MM, the negots Chair and YVR/YUL. YYZ the biggest base is not part of the "cool group" anymore, and the NEMs have always been a thorn in MM's side from letting him do whatever he wants. Doesn't mean they may not vote with them from time to time, but they seem to be some of the only checks and balance in the MEC at the moment along with YYZ.

I am getting even less impressed with Rob G now as well.

[RippleRock]

MM is the spokesman for the MEC and not a very good one in my opinion. I raised my doubts about him and TL during their election. However, recalling him will have little impact on decisions coming from the MEC unless of course he is not doing his main job - ensuring the MEC is making good decisions based on thorough due diligence and debate.

What I want to hear today on the webinar is what we got in exchange for the 10% reduction in pay. On the other hand if it’s just the Company taking advantage of the current situation then we have a problem. The entire MEC should be accountable if this is rejected.

I think most of us would love to see a cargo operation. Especially those either furloughed or surplus.

This cargo op is going ahead. It will NOT depend on whether or not we agree to do the work for a 10% discount.

What we have to ask ourselves is, "do we have any self respect left???".

The dispatchers will NOT dispatch at a discount, the ground handler WON'T either, nor will the AME's. Why us exactly???

I think it's because we have a "beaten dog syndrome", we are used to being kicked. Our own MEC recommends that we take a 10% beating on this, while not one other support group will. Like what the flying F@#*&???

The MEC needs to GO.

[discountpilot]

While the MEC Chair is taking 82 hours...

I have no proof he is, but let's be real here... make your own assumptions.

[PostmasterGeneral]

I joined the webinar late. Have they discussed the bullshit pay yet?

[tdp19]

I joined the webinar late. Have they discussed the bullshit pay yet?

Painful to listen to. Said the 90% is from a previous agreement or understanding, I didnt understand what they were talking about. Its so painful to listen to them sell this. I cant honestly picture how someone could vote for this. The ONLY people i can see interested in this is Rouge 67 Captains that were way out of seniority that would be bumped to flying a narrow body for years, but wanting to get back on the 767.... Its a disgrace. but will sadly pass

[PostmasterGeneral]

“The company will not be returning to the bargaining table.”

Jesus MM... Sell it a little harder why don’t you? The scare tactics have to stop!

[tdp19]

“The company will not be returning to the bargaining table.”

Jesus MM... Sell it a little harder why don’t you? The scare tactics have to stop!

Yeah, i feel like that comment sealed the vote for many..... So fraustrating!

[altiplano]

That's what they always say though!

If you say "don't worry, if you don't get a Yes vote, just come on back to the table and we'll fix a few things up for you" you're a shitty negotiator!

Take it or leave it is what they say every fucking time and you have to have the strength to walk.

[PostmasterGeneral]

I didn’t miss something, did I? MM is supposed to work for US right? Why is he presenting this like it’s a GOOD thing?

[JcPd_flyer]

So don't compare our wages against FedEx or UPS because they are logistics companies and we are an airline?? What kind of logic is that?! It's the same profession isn't it??