Cargo TA

[PostmasterGeneral]

From what I hear around me, I feel it will pass. Sad but it is what it is, people are scared to loose that flying. At this point, the company will probably come back with a 50% pay cut to compete with swoop and flair. Like they say, secure the flying now and fix it later....can't wait.

"Secure the flying" is such a crock of shit though. Where's it going to go if not to us?

[nowind]

I hear you, makes no sense to me. The first fin is coming back on Sunday from MZJ to YYZ so this thing is happening no matter what. You should spend some time to reach out and tell the word to your friends. Turnout is around 30% so there is still time to reverse it.

[PostmasterGeneral]

I hear you, makes no sense to me. The first fin is coming back on Sunday from MZJ to YYZ so this thing is happening no matter what. You should spend some time to reach out and tell the word to your friends. Turnout is around 30% so there is still time to reverse it.

Most of my friends are furloughed (like me) and aren't eligible to vote.

[RRJetPilot]

My prediction 70% no. Ive spoken to many people that have also spoken to many. And both private AC forums that have a total of 1500 members are a huge NO. Do your part talk to 2 friends and let them know about this shit sandwich.

[RippleRock]

From what I hear around me, I feel it will pass. Sad but it is what it is, people are scared to loose that flying. At this point, the company will probably come back with a 50% pay cut to compete with swoop and flair. Like they say, secure the flying now and fix it later....can't wait.

This group is going to have to make a choice.

Vote "yes" and accept yet further division within the Membership, lower wages for exactly the same work, and an onerous set of working conditions.

They had better accept that this WILL be used as a bargaining chip against them in the future as ACPA tries to clean up its mess by wasting "capital" equalizing the divide. Look at Rouge for proof.

Cargo flying CAN NOT go elsewhere, and if a 10% wage hike, and a few more garranteed days off to match Mainline WACON consumes all the yield, making this venture unprofitable, then it shouldn't be entertained in the first place.

Send a message that the pilot group refuses to be the "low hanging fruit" any longer, so this nonsense ends.

Find your dignity, locate a spot in the sand and draw a line, or it will be made for you.



FWIW, Stop living in fear. The stock goes nowhere without this group. Aircraft need to fly to increase the stock price, and the last time I checked, it takes two of us to drive one. Find a little of the self-respect we used to have and stop this career from dying a death by 1000 cuts.

[nowind]

RippleRock, I'm with you on everything, the only problem is that the ones who are still on the fence don't read this forum, certainly not the other one, so they dont have all the facts. I do what I can on my side with my contact list and I hope for the best.

[Ratherbe]

Wow so much emotion and as usual so much finger pointing at each other. The focus should be on the Company’s insistence on inserting a concessionary clause from CCAA that was negotiated out of the contract in 2011. Get mad at them not ACPA.

If this gets voted down then my guess is two likely scenarios.

1. The Company abandons this cargo initiative, blames the pilots for the lost opportunity and plans a delayed and much smaller airline coming out of 2021. This will mean many more layoffs and a much longer layoff for those already on the street.

2. The Company might bring the flying to mainline at full pay rates but no extra bid rights and the block hours will be part of the scope guarantees. However, I doubt this will happen as they likely want a separate Company for cost savings unrelated to pilots.

Cargo is a small bright spot today but it won’t last long. Hopefully by this spring we will be filling our B777 cabins with passengers not overflow freight from the established carriers. But if we can build a domestic cargo network to supplement our international loads this will allow us to rebuild our entire network faster than without it. Most importantly, this will allow for earlier recalls and some growth.

With the pandemic getting worse for now and so far zero support from our government, I don’t see that turning away a cargo division is a very wise move. Careful what you ask for.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

and a few more garranteed days off to match Mainline WACON

Please quote the reference in the collective agreement where it states the number of guaranteed days off for the widebody fleet please.

[nowind]

and a few more garranteed days off to match Mainline WACON

Please quote the reference in the collective agreement where it states the number of guaranteed days off for the widebody fleet please.

Your are right, but the payscale that they offer is not a widebody one, its 90% of it, so closer to the 320 payscale. Why does the 320 and the lcc67 have the 16 days on limit and not the 67F. Does it use a widebody CR?

[rudder]

But if we can build a domestic cargo network to supplement our international loads this will allow us to rebuild our entire network faster than without it.

In response to an analyst question, Rousseau made it clear that the dedicated cargo specialty company using 767’s was NOT for domestic cargo, but rather for international.

Domestic cargo is all below deck.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Wow so much emotion and as usual so much finger pointing at each other. The focus should be on the Company’s insistence on inserting a concessionary clause from CCAA that was negotiated out of the contract in 2011. Get mad at them not ACPA.

We ARE mad at the company. But MORE angry that our spineless union does f*ck all to stick up for the pilots that they represent when it comes to the company trying to strongarm us.

[RippleRock]

Kaffee and Ratherbee can go ahead and support this initiative. They shouldn't be the ones complaining when we get the next offer to fly aircraft already covered in our contract for 15% less next round.

If your OK with the direction our WACON is headed under this MEC, that's your business. Some are, and that's fine.

[discountpilot]

1. The Company abandons this cargo initiative, blames the pilots for the lost opportunity and plans a delayed and much smaller airline coming out of 2021. This will mean many more layoffs and a much longer layoff for those already on the street.

That's not how publicly traded companies work. They won't just make a smaller airline to spite one employee group. The fact you think this really shows how uninformed you are with how the world and business works.

Air Canada has an obligation to the board and shareholders to make money and increase the stock price. If there is money to be made flying cargo, even if it's $65 less profit per hour for three crew paying by us full wages, they will do it.

Keep living in your fantasy land that everything revolves around the pilots. We are a rounding error in the grand scheme of things.

[RVR6000]

..

[flyingjerry]

I have no fish to fry in this fight specifically but hoping for a NO as it sets precedent for Canadian Aviation WAWCON everywhere else.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

The group of posters on this thread are interesting...

they (with their extensive backgrounds in labour law, contract negotiating, corporate finances) seem to know more than the people who were actually in the room.

Where does all that knowledge come from?

Reading and writing on internet forums? You guys sound like a bunch of Trump supporters. Denial, conspiracy, and the world is out to get them.

In case you hadn't noticed, the world is in a huge public health crisis and economic meltdown.

And the funny thing is that the union officials are never good enough, the MEC in 2011 was kicked out, replaced by the hardliners in 2012, replaced by the "management suck ups" in 2014 and now people involved in 2012 running the MEC are now considered "not good enough" "suck ups" etc etc...

Good grief, do you all not see the common factor here? I'll spell it out for you. Its the 10-15% of membership who will never be happy..no matter the circumstance...

Saving 100-150 of your colleagues jobs? No, not good enough, we want FedEx or UPS wages....

[discountpilot]

Who said anything about FedEx or UPS wages? There is ZERO evidence this will save any jobs.. I'll believe it when I see it. Nothing in the LOU mentioning ratios, guarantees that there won't be reductions to move pilots and planes to cargo. It also sets us up for failure for any future fleet types moving to cargo and setting a precedent for 10% off.

We want what we already have. Flying people or cargo the job is the same, arguably cargo is harder because of the schedule. You know the people in the room wanted to keep at it, right? It's my understanding they brought this for ratification without the support of the Negotiations Committee... Which is unheard of.

What's the rush? Why did the MEC Chair push so hard to bring this to the members in its current form?

Did you watch the webinar? Notice the complete lack of enthusiasm from pretty much anyone but the MEC Chair? He has his finger on that union and it's volunteers so tight these days no one can go against him.

[RippleRock]

The group of posters on this thread are interesting...

they (with their extensive backgrounds in labour law, contract negotiating, corporate finances) seem to know more than the people who were actually in the room.

Where does all that knowledge come from?

Reading and writing on internet forums? You guys sound like a bunch of Trump supporters. Denial, conspiracy, and the world is out to get them.

In case you hadn't noticed, the world is in a huge public health crisis and economic meltdown.

And the funny thing is that the union officials are never good enough, the MEC in 2011 was kicked out, replaced by the hardliners in 2012, replaced by the "management suck ups" in 2014 and now people involved in 2012 running the MEC are now considered "not good enough" "suck ups" etc etc...

Good grief, do you all not see the common factor here? I'll spell it out for you. Its the 10-15% of membership who will never be happy..no matter the circumstance...

Saving 100-150 of your colleagues jobs? No, not good enough, we want FedEx or UPS wages....

Most of us don't want any more than what currently exists in the agreement we signed, so to say wages should be FedEx-like is stupid. We are already the lowest paid Major carrier Widebody pilots on the Planet Earth. How about the MEC respects the agreement the Membership signed onto? Temporary LET's fine, but when the stock starts to roll, they end.


Do you recall what happened when Zip was folded back into Mainline??? I was here and watched. We took a PERMANENT 5% hit to fly the small bus. That hit never, ever went away.

Now we are entertaining a 10% penalty on the Widebody fleet. (is this for real???) A yes vote will dramatically affect career earnings, and in turn retirement earnings. Not in a good way.

If there was a snap-back clause to give temporary relief during the pandemic, fine. But there is no such language, so PERMANENT it will be.

BTW, it doesn't take a law degree to figure out how this MEC is functioning. It seems to be their mandate to set the bar lower than it already is for some reason, both in direct earnings and in fatigue mitigation. Like WTF?

[BTD]

Forget about all the crud with sales jobs and back room deals within the MEC etc. There is an argument and discussion to be had there. But this piece has already been sent to the membership.

This LOU stands or falls based on its own merit.

Reading the LOU (annotated version, but of course) it is no good. That is all that matters while this vote is open.

[RVR6000]

Good grief, do you all not see the common factor here? I'll spell it out for you. Its the 10-15% of membership who will never be happy..no matter the circumstance...

Saving 100-150 of your colleagues jobs? No, not good enough, we want FedEx or UPS wages....

No one is asking for FedEx/UPS wages, just the established wages in our contract for a 767.

I voted Yes for COVID-MOA 2, cause it saved jobs. I was happy with 55 hrs, would’ve taken a further reduction if meant saving jobs.

This LOU is simply meant to create greater division in the group. Trying to squeeze us where-ever possible, simply taking advantage of the series of Yes votes.

[flashheart]

The group of posters on this thread are interesting...

they (with their extensive backgrounds in labour law, contract negotiating, corporate finances) seem to know more than the people who were actually in the room.

Where does all that knowledge come from?

Reading and writing on internet forums? You guys sound like a bunch of Trump supporters. Denial, conspiracy, and the world is out to get them.

In case you hadn't noticed, the world is in a huge public health crisis and economic meltdown.

And the funny thing is that the union officials are never good enough, the MEC in 2011 was kicked out, replaced by the hardliners in 2012, replaced by the "management suck ups" in 2014 and now people involved in 2012 running the MEC are now considered "not good enough" "suck ups" etc etc...

Good grief, do you all not see the common factor here? I'll spell it out for you. Its the 10-15% of membership who will never be happy..no matter the circumstance...

Saving 100-150 of your colleagues jobs? No, not good enough, we want FedEx or UPS wages....

"Pilots are the dumbest smart people you will ever meet"

It is no wonder the company eats us up. You can't even blame them. They should have gone for a 20% discount. Probably would have got it

[Tdicommuter]

https://theloadstar.com/air-canada-plan ... -business/

They planned and announced this without us already... Publicly. The TA allowing the top cargo flights ends in July. They want this bad and need it as well. We also need to keep working, but why does it need to be discounted without a snap back? The planes, and amount of work being announced is abysmal (2 67's), compared to the potential irreparable harm to future negotiations. Desperation has not kicked in yet. ERIP is their first and best way to save money long term and our packages have been laughable to date. We are plenty liquid to keep going. They are literally taking another leisure airline so we can't be totally toast yet.

I want this cargo flying! But not at the cost they are offering. It's in bad faith. Democracy only works by a collective voice. Cast yours... Stand by it... Don't crucify those who disagree.

[Fanblade]

This vote should never have made it past the MEC.

The pay cut is a done deal. We will likely vote yes. Even if we vote no it will likely end up in an arbitrators hands. The arbitrator will ram down our throat what the MEC agreed too.

We leaned this during TA1 nearly a decade ago. We overwhelmingly voted no. Ended up in arbitration. Final offer selection left us with TA1 minus a bunch. The jurisprudence says you can not walk away from what you agreed to.

Once the MEC has recommended something our vote is meaningless.

[BTD]

This vote should never have made it past the MEC.

The pay cut is a done deal. We will likely vote yes. Even if we vote no it will likely end up in an arbitrators hands. The arbitrator will ram down our throat what the MEC agreed too.

We leaned this during TA1 nearly a decade ago. We overwhelmingly voted no. Ended up in arbitration. Final offer selection left us with TA1 minus a bunch. The jurisprudence says you can not walk away from what you agreed to.

Once the MEC has recommended something our vote is meaningless.

At least on principle we could sleep soundly.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

"No one is asking for FedEx or UPS wages...."


Really???? Did you even listen to the webinar? That question was asked about 4 times....