Cargo TA

[PostmasterGeneral]

Looks like this forum has been taken over by Pilots on Furlough, who think they have all the answers. Quite funny actually, we saw this after TA1 when a bunch of children stood at the back of the meeting and heckled the presenters. A couple of those clowns managed to get into elected positions and we never heard from them again.

They will always be remembered for the childish actions and being completely useless in an elected position.

Sounds a lot like P4C.

If you’ve got answers that I don’t have in my less than infinite wisdom, please enlighten me. I’ve educated myself on this LOU. I attended the webinar. I’ve read the Q&A. I’ve contacted my LEC. What else could I be missing Johnny?

[discountpilot]

Looks like this forum has been taken over by Pilots on Furlough, who think they have all the answers. Quite funny actually, we saw this after TA1 when a bunch of children stood at the back of the meeting and heckled the presenters. A couple of those clowns managed to get into elected positions and we never heard from them again.

They will always be remembered for the childish actions and being completely useless in an elected position.

Sounds a lot like P4C.

You sound like Mike. Took a break from jerking off to photos of 767Fs to post on avcan? How nice.

[YesMassaPayson]

Looks like this forum has been taken over by Pilots on Furlough, who think they have all the answers. Quite funny actually, we saw this after TA1 when a bunch of children stood at the back of the meeting and heckled the presenters. A couple of those clowns managed to get into elected positions and we never heard from them again.

They will always be remembered for the childish actions and being completely useless in an elected position.

Sounds a lot like P4C.

I love seeing how scared of P4C you status quo guys are. It means, slowly but surely, change is happening and you know it.

[Johnny767]

Scared of P4C, now that's a laugh. I said when they first dropped their kimono that it would crumble under its own weight. I am all for change, just get the right players involved.

Loud mouthed, disrespectful Pilots that have worked here for a couple months are not the answer.

Reading some of the posts I think HR should reevaluate the psych eval, laid off Pilots who have haven't completed a year on the property slamming the Airline.

Good luck with that approach.

[YesMassaPayson]

laid off Pilots who have haven't completed a year on the property slamming the Airline.

Have you even looked at the website? Over half the core organizers are captains or senior FOs.

Have a nice retirement.

[RippleRock]

laid off Pilots who have haven't completed a year on the property slamming the Airline.

Have you even looked at the website? Over half the core organizers are captains or senior FOs.

Have a nice retirement.

I've been here 20 years. ACPA doesn't even have my back.

FYI, they are actively endorsing a >>>>permanent<<<< 10% reduction in wages to fly the exact type of aircraft we have flown since 1983. This is the worst fleet type "voluntary" wage reduction in the history of the pilot group. This is precedent setting as the Company will come back to us for more concessions, I promise you. Once you voluntarily lower your own bar and effectively say "we are not worth the wages we currently make", where do you go from there??? Where? How do you ever bargain for any gains that are not AT BEST "net zero" ever again?? Exactly.

You can't make this $hit up.

P4C isn't behind this, and they don't support it. So your saying what exactly? This is a Cargo TA thread.

[discountpilot]

Scared of P4C, now that's a laugh. I said when they first dropped their kimono that it would crumble under its own weight. I am all for change, just get the right players involved.

Loud mouthed, disrespectful Pilots that have worked here for a couple months are not the answer.

Reading some of the posts I think HR should reevaluate the psych eval, laid off Pilots who have haven't completed a year on the property slamming the Airline.

Good luck with that approach.

There's literally one person part of P4C who you could consider junior and based on what I've seen they have more critical thinking skills than half the pilot group and most of the MEC. They've been here much longer than "a few months" as you try to spin, and had valuable union experience elsewhere. I love the rhetoric that people like you peddle that someone junior can't be involved or question the status quo because they are newer to AC. If anything those are exactly the people we need involved, as they still have fresh outside perspective of other contracts (which ARE better than ours from a working condition side if things) instead of pilots who don't remember what it's like to not be a WB CA. The majority of P4C are Captains and mid seniority FOs. They will eventually win and I'll be happy when they do.

Back to the issue at hand, the Cargo LOU. There is nothing anyone can say to me to justify accepting a wage cut even if it's for only 2-6 planes. This won't bring back jobs. They overwhelming opinion on the private forum is this LOU is trash, and I've been seening a ton of names posting there about this that never do. So my hope is it's not just the core forum posters against it and the discontent is much wider spread. If this passes it won't be by a large margin.

[Sceptical]

It has been interesting to sit back and watch the fur fly on this issue the past few days. Lots of opposing opinions, which is good, and a lot of misconceptions. As a 30+ year AC pilot, I think it is time to weigh in on this. Rather than trying to guess my position, I will state from the outset that turning down this deal would be sheer lunacy. Now I will explain why.

There are have been a number of themes throughout this thread which I will summarize and respond to – I will do the easy ones first.

Back of the Clock Flying

Some claim that this will be back of the clock flying and that it deserves more pay due to that. With or without the 10% reduction of the nominal hourly wage (but not the add-ons), its still pays very well. But the 767, nor a freight 767 is the only aircraft that flies on the back of the clock. Increasingly, the narrow-bodies are too and will be doing more so in the future. Before the MAX issue and COVID, the MAX was doing YVR to Hawaii, YYT and YHZ to LHR, YYZ-DUB, etc. Plans were afoot to do more overseas, back of the clock flying and this will only increase owing to the damage done by COVID to travel demand and the (eventual) introduction of the A321 XLR into the AC fleet. Get used to it.

Bring Pilots Back (or Not)

Some claim that the introduction of the 767F will not result in pilots being brought back. Nonsense. More flying, more work will bring back those on furlough sooner, all other things being equal. It is difficult to predict but I would suggest that 6 X 767F’s (about 100 jobs) would result in a recall six months earlier than what would otherwise happen. Given the lack of job opportunities out there, I would suspect most of the furloughed pilots would jump at coming back six months sooner.

If the 777-200’s are retired and another 100 or so jobs disappear, you are going to wish you had the B767F’s. 79 aircraft (over 1,000 positions) already, new aircraft deliveries either delayed or cancelled outright, that is a lot of flying, a lot of work that will take years to recover from.

Precedent Setting

Some suggest that agreeing to a 10% discount with the 767F would prejudice any negotiation should a 777F fleet be contemplated. That is simply non-sense and not how negotiations work. The pay rate, for example, that is negotiated is dependent upon the circumstances at the time and the relative strength of the two parties. Any one who claims otherwise has never been involved in a negotiation.

CargoJet MOU Circa 2015

Who can forget the MOU defeating what would have allowed CargoJet to do Air Canada cargo flying and the boys and girl in ACPA being handed a cheque for $1.4 million for our troubles? It was defeated for two reasons in my recollection: 1) that that was AC pilots flying and they should be flying the 767’s instead, and 2) $1.4M ($300 per pilot) was not worth the trouble.

On the latter issue, $1.4M is not chump change and would have made a nice endowment for scholarships, given to charity, etc. But this is a minor point.

The major point, the former issue, of forcing the company to have AC pilots do that flying has two interesting features in today’s context. First, AC pilots called the company’s bluff and lost – they just dropped the whole matter altogether. That should be a learning point for anyone thinks voting this deal down will result in the company coming back to the table with a better offer when they have stated categorically that this is the final and best offer.

The other ironic point is that five years later, owing to COVID and the chaos in the air transport industry, AC pilots are about to get their wish to be doing the same cargo flying they wanted in 2015. Yet, this still isn’t good enough today.

If today had a healthy industry and healthy company, perhaps AC pilots could afford to turn their noses up at it. Unfortunately, it is quite the opposite. More on that later.

Economics

A couple of observations about has been stated by certain individuals. The first is a correlation between the stock rise this week and the announcement of the (potential) cargo division. A two, possibly six, aircraft operation does not move the needle on the stock price. Lower than expected cash burn and the prospect of some sort of government assistance is what moved the stock price.

It is true that other labour groups are not being asked to work for below “industry standard” wages in this cargo division. Although I do not have the exact figures at my fingertips, I would submit that they already are working at competitive wages to CargoJet et al. AME’s at AC, for example, do not make wildly more money than their AME colleagues at WJ, CargoJet, etc.

There are those that claim that if the margin between having this cargo division and not is the 10% “reduction” in mainline rates then don’t do a cargo division. On one level I would agree with this but on another I would submit that given the competitive environment, this might very well be the margin between profit and loss.

If one looks at the cost of operating B767F’s between AC and CargoJet, what differentiates them? Fuel burn would be the same, maintenance would be the same, landing fees would be the same, air navigation charges would be the same. The only thing differentiating the two would be labour rates and, as I have postulated, there is not much difference in rates between these organizations for labour except the pilots.
In the competitive world of air cargo, AC cannot extract a premium simply because it is Air Canada; cargo does not care whether it has business class or not, lounges, etc. so the pricing has to be competitive and it cannot be if the only differentiator (pilots wages) is not. A similar lesson was learned with Rouge; AC mainline was totally uncompetitive in the leisure market (a price sensitive market just like cargo) until it had competitive labour costs (pilots, FA’s, agents, etc.) and seating density.

A number of years ago, AC lost the Canada Post contract to CargoJet as it was financially uncompetitive and that is what helped CargoJet to expand so price and cost competition is important.

Industry Rate

Anyone who thinks that any AC cargo pilot rates should be competitive with FedEx or UPS or DHL is fooling themselves. In addition to offering a completely different product (end-to-end package delivery), AC cargo will never be in that game; yes, it is cargo from take-off to landing but AC cannot ever be able to match the pick-up and delivery that these organizations offer.

AC’s comparator is CargoJet and, as described, it has to be competitive with it. That is who one should be comparing the pilot contract with.
And, AC’s pay rate, even at the 10% below mainline is still greater than CargoJet’s. It is true that the total wage at 63-hour block months is less than CargoJet’s 80+ hours per month, yielding a larger paycheque but what matters is how you are compensated for on an hourly basis. Work fewer hours, naturally one will make less.

I always laughed when hearing the story of the mystical WJ B737 pilot making $400K per year; whether he or the Lochness Monster ever existed I don’t know but when you did the math this “mystery pilot” would have had to have flown 120 hours per month, month in and month out to make that. If getting the biggest paycheque possible is your thing then that is how you do it; I like to be compensated at a higher, hourly rate so I can make the same money with fewer hours at work (and more time doing other things). It’s a personal preference.

But even if AC B767F’s pilots flew 80 hours too and realized a large paycheque, the dissenters would still squabble about the injustice of working at 90% of mainline rates but fail to mention that is about 10% greater than CargoJet’s hourly rates.

All of the foregoing is important but what I really find astounding is the utter (pick one or more) denial/ignorance/head-in-the-sand/arrogance on display here. Do any of those that oppose this deal ever read the newspaper or watch the news (apart from the Trump shenanigans?). Do you not see that the world is in an economic crisis? Do you not see that the world’s airline industry is collapsing (Norwegian is about to go down for example)? That other pilot groups are being handed draconian contracts (Cathay, United, etc.). Yet, Air Canada is offering an opportunity to expand in a new line of business, employ more pilots so that those that are furloughed come back sooner and others either get upgrades or pay raises?

Finally, here is the acid test. I would invite each and everyone of the naysayers to ask their non-airline family members, neighbours, etc. the following question: Would you reject an opportunity to create jobs that pay in excess of $180,000 per year during this current economic crisis? I would be shocked if, asked this question, that anyone would answer “yes”.

[discountpilot]

AC’s comparator is CargoJet and, as described, it has to be competitive with it. That is who one should be comparing the pilot contract with.
And, AC’s pay rate, even at the 10% below mainline is still greater than CargoJet’s. It is true that the total wage at 63-hour block months is less than CargoJet’s 80+ hours per month, yielding a larger paycheque but what matters is how you are compensated for on an hourly basis. Work fewer hours, naturally one will make less.

First off NO ONE here is saying we want FedEx or UPS wages. We want what is already ours. Surely you can understand that having been here through the Zip/Tango "recapture the flying" shit and CCAA pay reductions. Reductions that have never been recovered.

I completely disagree. CJ pilots will make more AND work less. They are paid 85 but work on average 60 block a month and have a max days cap of 16. We on the other hand will have just as unproductive flying but zero protections with no cap and no minimum guarantee as good as they do.

You say the 10% could be the difference between profit and loss. That's a hair under $70/hr maximum savings if all pilots are 12+ YOS... I stand by the comments that if THAT'S the difference maker (which it's clearly not, this is a power play) then yes we should steer clear of cargo.

I pretty much disagree with everything you've said and given you say you've been here 30 years none of this will effect you anyways. As a more junior pilot with 25+ years left this will have a direct impact on my earnings and future pension LONG after you've retired with your nice high six figure (since you know you say you've been here 30 years) DB pension.

Your post has a lot of words which to some might make it look "smart" but I don't confuse that with actual truth. Lots of misinformation and half truths. You sound like our MEC Chair.

[RippleRock]

It has been interesting to sit back and watch the fur fly on this issue the past few days. Lots of opposing opinions, which is good, and a lot of misconceptions. As a 30+ year AC pilot, I think it is time to weigh in on this. Rather than trying to guess my position, I will state from the outset that turning down this deal would be sheer lunacy. Now I will explain why.

There are have been a number of themes throughout this thread which I will summarize and respond to – I will do the easy ones first.

Back of the Clock Flying

Some claim that this will be back of the clock flying and that it deserves more pay due to that. With or without the 10% reduction of the nominal hourly wage (but not the add-ons), its still pays very well. But the 767, nor a freight 767 is the only aircraft that flies on the back of the clock. Increasingly, the narrow-bodies are too and will be doing more so in the future. Before the MAX issue and COVID, the MAX was doing YVR to Hawaii, YYT and YHZ to LHR, YYZ-DUB, etc. Plans were afoot to do more overseas, back of the clock flying and this will only increase owing to the damage done by COVID to travel demand and the (eventual) introduction of the A321 XLR into the AC fleet. Get used to it.

Bring Pilots Back (or Not)

Some claim that the introduction of the 767F will not result in pilots being brought back. Nonsense. More flying, more work will bring back those on furlough sooner, all other things being equal. It is difficult to predict but I would suggest that 6 X 767F’s (about 100 jobs) would result in a recall six months earlier than what would otherwise happen. Given the lack of job opportunities out there, I would suspect most of the furloughed pilots would jump at coming back six months sooner.

If the 777-200’s are retired and another 100 or so jobs disappear, you are going to wish you had the B767F’s. 79 aircraft (over 1,000 positions) already, new aircraft deliveries either delayed or cancelled outright, that is a lot of flying, a lot of work that will take years to recover from.

Precedent Setting

Some suggest that agreeing to a 10% discount with the 767F would prejudice any negotiation should a 777F fleet be contemplated. That is simply non-sense and not how negotiations work. The pay rate, for example, that is negotiated is dependent upon the circumstances at the time and the relative strength of the two parties. Any one who claims otherwise has never been involved in a negotiation.

CargoJet MOU Circa 2015

Who can forget the MOU defeating what would have allowed CargoJet to do Air Canada cargo flying and the boys and girl in ACPA being handed a cheque for $1.4 million for our troubles? It was defeated for two reasons in my recollection: 1) that that was AC pilots flying and they should be flying the 767’s instead, and 2) $1.4M ($300 per pilot) was not worth the trouble.

On the latter issue, $1.4M is not chump change and would have made a nice endowment for scholarships, given to charity, etc. But this is a minor point.

The major point, the former issue, of forcing the company to have AC pilots do that flying has two interesting features in today’s context. First, AC pilots called the company’s bluff and lost – they just dropped the whole matter altogether. That should be a learning point for anyone thinks voting this deal down will result in the company coming back to the table with a better offer when they have stated categorically that this is the final and best offer.

The other ironic point is that five years later, owing to COVID and the chaos in the air transport industry, AC pilots are about to get their wish to be doing the same cargo flying they wanted in 2015. Yet, this still isn’t good enough today.

If today had a healthy industry and healthy company, perhaps AC pilots could afford to turn their noses up at it. Unfortunately, it is quite the opposite. More on that later.

Economics

A couple of observations about has been stated by certain individuals. The first is a correlation between the stock rise this week and the announcement of the (potential) cargo division. A two, possibly six, aircraft operation does not move the needle on the stock price. Lower than expected cash burn and the prospect of some sort of government assistance is what moved the stock price.

It is true that other labour groups are not being asked to work for below “industry standard” wages in this cargo division. Although I do not have the exact figures at my fingertips, I would submit that they already are working at competitive wages to CargoJet et al. AME’s at AC, for example, do not make wildly more money than their AME colleagues at WJ, CargoJet, etc.

There are those that claim that if the margin between having this cargo division and not is the 10% “reduction” in mainline rates then don’t do a cargo division. On one level I would agree with this but on another I would submit that given the competitive environment, this might very well be the margin between profit and loss.

If one looks at the cost of operating B767F’s between AC and CargoJet, what differentiates them? Fuel burn would be the same, maintenance would be the same, landing fees would be the same, air navigation charges would be the same. The only thing differentiating the two would be labour rates and, as I have postulated, there is not much difference in rates between these organizations for labour except the pilots.
In the competitive world of air cargo, AC cannot extract a premium simply because it is Air Canada; cargo does not care whether it has business class or not, lounges, etc. so the pricing has to be competitive and it cannot be if the only differentiator (pilots wages) is not. A similar lesson was learned with Rouge; AC mainline was totally uncompetitive in the leisure market (a price sensitive market just like cargo) until it had competitive labour costs (pilots, FA’s, agents, etc.) and seating density.

A number of years ago, AC lost the Canada Post contract to CargoJet as it was financially uncompetitive and that is what helped CargoJet to expand so price and cost competition is important.

Industry Rate

Anyone who thinks that any AC cargo pilot rates should be competitive with FedEx or UPS or DHL is fooling themselves. In addition to offering a completely different product (end-to-end package delivery), AC cargo will never be in that game; yes, it is cargo from take-off to landing but AC cannot ever be able to match the pick-up and delivery that these organizations offer.

AC’s comparator is CargoJet and, as described, it has to be competitive with it. That is who one should be comparing the pilot contract with.
And, AC’s pay rate, even at the 10% below mainline is still greater than CargoJet’s. It is true that the total wage at 63-hour block months is less than CargoJet’s 80+ hours per month, yielding a larger paycheque but what matters is how you are compensated for on an hourly basis. Work fewer hours, naturally one will make less.

I always laughed when hearing the story of the mystical WJ B737 pilot making $400K per year; whether he or the Lochness Monster ever existed I don’t know but when you did the math this “mystery pilot” would have had to have flown 120 hours per month, month in and month out to make that. If getting the biggest paycheque possible is your thing then that is how you do it; I like to be compensated at a higher, hourly rate so I can make the same money with fewer hours at work (and more time doing other things). It’s a personal preference.

But even if AC B767F’s pilots flew 80 hours too and realized a large paycheque, the dissenters would still squabble about the injustice of working at 90% of mainline rates but fail to mention that is about 10% greater than CargoJet’s hourly rates.

All of the foregoing is important but what I really find astounding is the utter (pick one or more) denial/ignorance/head-in-the-sand/arrogance on display here. Do any of those that oppose this deal ever read the newspaper or watch the news (apart from the Trump shenanigans?). Do you not see that the world is in an economic crisis? Do you not see that the world’s airline industry is collapsing (Norwegian is about to go down for example)? That other pilot groups are being handed draconian contracts (Cathay, United, etc.). Yet, Air Canada is offering an opportunity to expand in a new line of business, employ more pilots so that those that are furloughed come back sooner and others either get upgrades or pay raises?

Finally, here is the acid test. I would invite each and everyone of the naysayers to ask their non-airline family members, neighbours, etc. the following question: Would you reject an opportunity to create jobs that pay in excess of $180,000 per year during this current economic crisis? I would be shocked if, asked this question, that anyone would answer “yes”.

Leave this debate to those with significant skin in the game. There are at least 6 vaccines with Phase three trial data to be released this month. The "asteriod strike" has been averted, now we wait till a spring distribution.

This complete Shit is coming from someone who is near retirement and only cares about a "healthier AC". He doesn't care as it won't personally affect him, and if we all worked for free the moment he retires, he would know his pension is more secure that it ever could be.

It's amazing what can be justified as long as others are picking up the tab. It is this exact frame of thought that brought us the likes of Al Mostowich and the nastiness he did our group. This is the Baby Boomer effect.

FWIW, following the contract will NOT make or break the Cargo op. We don't need fear mongering, your pension is safe. It wouldn't be for lack of funding.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

In the competitive world of air cargo, AC cannot extract a premium simply because it is Air Canada; cargo does not care whether it has business class or not, lounges, etc. so the pricing has to be competitive and it cannot be if the only differentiator (pilots wages) is not. A similar lesson was learned with Rouge; AC mainline was totally uncompetitive in the leisure market (a price sensitive market just like cargo) until it had competitive labour costs (pilots, FA’s, agents, etc.) and seating density.

Maybe, if the only way to be competitive in a market is to lower the bar for yourselves, then that isn't a market you should be in anyways?

Think of all those high-end burger places that have become the rage in the past decade. They're serving burgers and fries same as McDonalds and Burger King. However, they know their product is superior, and charge a premium for better meat, nicer atmosphere, better quality control, etc.

They didn't lower their prices and start selling burger combo's at $5.99 just to cut into McDonald's and Burger King. They know their place in the world, stick to it and have pride in it. They don't devalue themselves just to be more competitive in the "leisure market" of burgers and fries.

[Hangry]

There is NO chance sceptical is a regular line pilot. Zero.

Is this what you union guys get the top up for?

[RVR6000]

A-Scale (mainline)
B-Scale (Rouge)
C-Scale (Cargo)

Come 2023/2024 negots.... D-Scale for new hires and back to grandfathered rates.

We spent the last 6 years bringing B-Scale closer to A-Scale, how much bargaining capital was used up in the best of times?

If you're a Junior and voted Yes, then do not complain how shitty our contract is once Covid passes.

[discountpilot]

There is NO chance sceptical is a regular line pilot. Zero.

Is this what you union guys get the top up for?

[Johnny767]

[/quote]

There's literally one person part of P4C who you could consider junior and based on what I've seen they have more critical thinking skills than half the pilot group and most of the MEC. They've been here much longer than "a few months" as you try to spin, and had valuable union experience elsewhere. I love the rhetoric that people like you peddle that someone junior can't be involved or question the status quo because they are newer to AC. If anything those are exactly the people we need involved, as they still have fresh outside perspective of other contracts (which ARE better than ours from a working condition side if things) instead of pilots who don't remember what it's like to not be a WB CA. The majority of P4C are Captains and mid seniority FOs. They will eventually win and I'll be happy when they do.

Back to the issue at hand, the Cargo LOU. There is nothing anyone can say to me to justify accepting a wage cut even if it's for only 2-6 planes. This won't bring back jobs. They overwhelming opinion on the private forum is this LOU is trash, and I've been seening a ton of names posting there about this that never do. So my hope is it's not just the core forum posters against it and the discontent is much wider spread. If this passes it won't be by a large margin.
[/quote]

It's a little weird / sociopath to talk about yourself in the third person discountpilot. Since two of the P4C candidates were already members of the MEC do we know how they voted on this TA?

And Cargo pays more than Rouge, only kicker is the Rouge overtime won't be there for the PIG flyers.

[discountpilot]

A-Scale (mainline)
B-Scale (Rouge)
C-Scale (Cargo)

Come 2023/2024 negots.... D-Scale for new hires and back to grandfathered rates.

We spent the last 6 years bringing B-Scale closer to A-Scale, how much bargaining capital was used up in the best of times?

If you're a Junior and voted Yes, then do not complain how shitty our contract is once Covid passes.

Comn 2024 the company will know we always vote yes on every shitty deal we get, and take us to the cleaners. Just watch. We'll bend over and spread the cheeks ourselves.

[discountpilot]

It's a little weird / sociopath to talk about yourself in the third person discountpilot. Since two of the P4C candidates were already members of the MEC do we know how they voted on this TA?

And Cargo pays more than Rouge, only kicker is the Rouge overtime won't be there for the PIG flyers.

What you're not allowed to talk positively about other people anymore? I have no idea how they voted, I am not privy to that kind of information.

How can Cargo pay more than Rouge when Rouge has a 77.5 min guarantee? I could get behind the LOU a lot easier even at 10% discount if there was a 77.5 min and 16 days max work (like Cargojet).

[Johnny767]

You do know we are at 63 hours as a work sharing agreement? There are MANY line Pilots that would be quite happy to go to 77.5 and you would continue to be laid off that much longer.

[discountpilot]

You do know we are at 63 hours as a work sharing agreement? There are MANY line Pilots that would be quite happy to go to 77.5 and you would continue to be laid off that much longer.

You can't see past your nose to spite your own face. You know you can agree to have a 77.5 minimum AFTER the Covid MOA is over, right? This Cargo LOA is permanent... and therefore should be negotiated as such with the idea of what it will look like in say 5 years when Covid is a distant memory.

[Johnny767]

Looks like this forum has been taken over by Pilots on Furlough, who think they have all the answers. Quite funny actually, we saw this after TA1 when a bunch of children stood at the back of the meeting and heckled the presenters. A couple of those clowns managed to get into elected positions and we never heard from them again.

They will always be remembered for the childish actions and being completely useless in an elected position.

Sounds a lot like P4C.

You sound like Mike. Took a break from jerking off to photos of 767Fs to post on avcan? How nice.

Spoken like a true, educated Professional. This is what the C-Suite Executives see and think of Pilots, keep up the good work!

[Sceptical]

It has been interesting to sit back and watch the fur fly on this issue the past few days. Lots of opposing opinions, which is good, and a lot of misconceptions. As a 30+ year AC pilot, I think it is time to weigh in on this. Rather than trying to guess my position, I will state from the outset that turning down this deal would be sheer lunacy. Now I will explain why.

Leave this debate to those with significant skin in the game. There are at least 6 vaccines with Phase three trial data to be released this month. The "asteriod strike" has been averted, now we wait till a spring distribution.

This complete Shit is coming from someone who is near retirement and only cares about a "healthier AC". He doesn't care as it won't personally affect him, and if we all worked for free the moment he retires, he would know his pension is more secure that it ever could be.

It's amazing what can be justified as long as others are picking up the tab. It is this exact frame of thought that brought us the likes of Al Mostowich and the nastiness he did our group. This is the Baby Boomer effect.

FWIW, following the contract will NOT make or break the Cargo op. We don't need fear mongering, your pension is safe. It wouldn't be for lack of funding.

An entirely predictable response; rather than addressing the points I raise, it turns into a personal attack.

While we may have averted the "asteroid strike" (maybe) the balance sheet of AC and all of the passenger airlines are badly damaged. Even if the government comes through with relief, anything but outright grants (i.e. loans) still leaves the business in a sad state. And it will be years, according to the experts, before passenger travel bounces back - Zoom meetings displacing business travel, less wealth among consumers, jittery about flying even with a vaccine, the outlook is not very good for quite a while.

As far as being retired and not caring about anything thereafter, you are wrong; there are those of us that have been around for a wee bit of time who still care about this profession long after they sail off into retirement. While this won't affect personally one way or another, it will adversely affect many who are out on the street and would like to have something come back to. I presume that you are still on the property so I would submit that it you, sir, that is only considering himself (or herself) for if you cared about anyone other than yourself, you would be all over getting more flying, more jobs into AC so your colleagues can return to work.

[Sceptical]

In the competitive world of air cargo, AC cannot extract a premium simply because it is Air Canada; cargo does not care whether it has business class or not, lounges, etc. so the pricing has to be competitive and it cannot be if the only differentiator (pilots wages) is not. A similar lesson was learned with Rouge; AC mainline was totally uncompetitive in the leisure market (a price sensitive market just like cargo) until it had competitive labour costs (pilots, FA’s, agents, etc.) and seating density.

Maybe, if the only way to be competitive in a market is to lower the bar for yourselves, then that isn't a market you should be in anyways?

Think of all those high-end burger places that have become the rage in the past decade. They're serving burgers and fries same as McDonalds and Burger King. However, they know their product is superior, and charge a premium for better meat, nicer atmosphere, better quality control, etc.

They didn't lower their prices and start selling burger combo's at $5.99 just to cut into McDonald's and Burger King. They know their place in the world, stick to it and have pride in it. They don't devalue themselves just to be more competitive in the "leisure market" of burgers and fries.

As I said, cargo doesn't care if there is a business class or airport lounges or any other bells and whistles. I would also add too that where there has been the growth in the industry prior to COVID - the low-cost, price sensitive leisure market. Look how big Rouge became as well as Sunwings and others during that period. Cargo and leisure travel are price (cost) sensitive businesses.

Your analogy about fast food places is interesting...these are like the business class of burgers and they cater to a market that is not price sensitive. But cargo is not in that league; AC gets no extra points as cargo doesn't care whose name is on the side of the airplane. And, I would like to add regarding your hamburger analogy, do you see McDonald's or Burger King's closing? I only see more of them. Do you see Walmart's or Costco's closing? I only see more of them opening up.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

Just to make it perfectly clear:

ACPA's MEC Chair is here trolling on AvCanada

This is the leadership of this union

This is the head of Canada's Largest Pilot Union

The apparent "Leader" of the pilot profession in Canada (The "NHL")


This is how sad it is at ACPA right now

Stock - solid
Analysts - talk of how great of a future the airline has

But yet the largest skeptics are their own pilots. Almost like they don't even read company emails. Obviously zero clue on what the financial experts think

And it is disgusting how any pilot, who knows that they will never have to bid this are ready to throw their own under the bus.

This will pass and it will lead to even further concessions in the spring. The company has us on the retreat and they aren't going to stop their charge.

My only motivation is to keep informed on this spectacle so that I can explain to the future generation how and who fucked up.

Cuz son, we fucked up

[Bigdog]

Thousands upon thousands of very experienced pilots out of work world wide. Buddies overseas taking up to 50% reductions in pay. Yet we have people who can't come to terms with a 10% pay cut to "fly rubber dog shit out of Hong Kong". Incase some of you haven't watched the news lately were in the middle of a pandemic with a bunch of Dimwits running our country. Who so far seem to be okay with us failing or shrinking significantly.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

In the competitive world of air cargo, AC cannot extract a premium simply because it is Air Canada; cargo does not care whether it has business class or not, lounges, etc. so the pricing has to be competitive and it cannot be if the only differentiator (pilots wages) is not.

True, Cargo doesn't doesn't care if there is a business class or airport lounges or any other bells and whistles. But Air Canada is a premium service ferrying passengers around Canada and the world. There are other companies flying cargo. To add to my burger analogy, you don't see high-end burger joints starting an in-house cargo division just because it looks like some other cargo-only businesses seem to be making money at it. And, you don't see cargo operations starting to open up restaurants in their warehouses. Each serves it's own niche, and if the only way to break into the other's niche is to undercut yourselves, well then maybe you should stay in your own lane.

And, this is the biggie: if the only differentiator is cutting pilot wages by 10% to make the whole thing fly, I would posit that it is not a good business case.

And, I would like to add regarding your hamburger analogy, do you see McDonald's or Burger King's closing? I only see more of them. Do you see Walmart's or Costco's closing? I only see more of them opening up.

In keeping with the burger analogy, I guess this all comes down to this question: Does Air Canada want to be the premium brand that it believes it is? Or does it want to cheapen itself and become the Burger Kings, McDonald's and Wal-Mart's of the widebody world?

P.S. in response to your opinion of more Burger King's, McDonald's and Wal-Mart's opening, they're actually closing:

https://www.businessinsider.com/fast-fo ... to-close-2

Burger King reported plans to close up to 250 restaurants in 2019, with closures coming into effect this year and over the next few years. According to Restaurant Business, "Burger King executives said the company plans to close 200 to 250 low-volume locations per year over the next couple of years."

On May 12, MassLive reported that a Burger King in Springfield, Massachusetts, closed its doors after 46 years in business.

https://toronto-ontario.news/news/mcdon ... t%20stores.

McDonald’s announced Tuesday it plans to permanently close 700 restaurants in Canada this year, in these provinces of Canada : Ontario, Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec, Alberta, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, Manitoba, about half of which are “low-volume” locations inside Walmart stores.

The fast food giant’s CFO, Kevin Ozan, said during Tuesday’s second-quarter earnings call it was “accelerating some restaurant closures previously planned for future months,”.

https://www.businessinsider.com/walmart ... ist-2019-3

Walmart has been quietly closing stores and has already closed at least 22 stores across 14 US states and Canada. Walmart said earlier this year that it planned to open fewer than 10 new stores over the next year.