Cargo TA

[ACAV8R]

60% in favour

[Sceptical]

It is amazing how management or in this case, a union lackie who is a big company fanboy, can spin something into something it isn't.

The company is doing cargo right now. At full rates. They even converted aircraft.

If the company has a strategic vision to do cargo, it is going to do cargo. It doesn't give two hoots what the pilots want but if they can pay them less, all the better and all the better those middle manager negotiators will look to their higher ups.

Sceptical - I recognize this exact line from the union MEC. It is disgusting. Get out of your house and get on the line and be a pilot instead of a keyboard warrior. You are an embarrassment to this occupation.

It has been my experience over the years that those that like to name call, particularly calling one a union lackie or someone mimicking the union line, are those that have never spent any time either doing union work, particularly at an MEC or Negotiating Committee level, or have never negotiated anything more substantial than a mortgage or a car loan.

Having done both of these activities (union and negotiating business deals) it is easy to recognize individuals like yourself as those of your ilk seem to thing that you can wave your hands, stomp your feet and the party opposite will roll over. I don't fault individuals like yourself for your ignorance of how the big, wide world works. Perhaps some acknowledgement of your short comings would be nice but at minimum how about just dispensing with the denigrating comments about being an embarrassment to the occupation. And better yet, how about volunteering for your union as you will find it an interesting, rewarding and educational experience.

[Cappo1]

I wonder why one group is targeted for the cuts.

Because we have demonstrated our willingness. The other groups would laugh at the idea.

No different than when AC wanted to start a different specialty company that eventually was named Rouge. No one else was asked to take cuts. There was no point in asking. Who agrees to work for less?

I get back from my trip and find out it was a yes !? I never agreed to it. Your rationale presents itself as common sense . Shocked it was a yes especially when so much is at stake with the future of aviation and Air Canada Mainline. I stress Mainline.

If that's what they are willing to accept , they best not complain when they are all asked to make concessions just to have a job. It's coming. That yes just gave the company permission to screw us even more.

We need a backbone like the European pilots who are fighting against us merging with TS . Lufthansa and Brussels airlines don't want to be stuck doing domestics and Lagos because of us being predatory. That's an entirely new shite show coming our way.

[Fanblade]

I wonder why one group is targeted for the cuts.

Because we have demonstrated our willingness. The other groups would laugh at the idea.

No different than when AC wanted to start a different specialty company that eventually was named Rouge. No one else was asked to take cuts. There was no point in asking. Who agrees to work for less?

I get back from my trip and find out it was a yes !? I never agreed to it. Your rationale presents itself as common sense . Shocked it was a yes especially when so much is at stake with the future of aviation and Air Canada Mainline. I stress Mainline.

If that's what they are willing to accept , they best not complain when they are all asked to make concessions just to have a job. It's coming. That yes just gave the company permission to screw us even more.

We need a backbone like the European pilots who are fighting against us merging with TS . Lufthansa and Brussels airlines don't want to be stuck doing domestics and Lagos because of us being predatory. That's an entirely new shite show coming our way.

Cappo1,

It you want to truely understand why go back and read all of sceptical's posts. He/she does a masterful job encapsulating the way ACPA leadership thinks. Complete with the arrogant condescending tone, rationalization, justifications and logic that makes you go......what???

[Fanblade]

The truth hurts sometimes but that is the rational behind the weight-speed formula. It has been that way for decades dating back to the first pilot union contracts. In fact, when jet aircraft and wide-bodies came into existence and the pay skyrocketed, owing to the use of the same weight and speed factors with faster and bigger airplanes, airline managements went berserk as it resulted in B747 Captains making ridiculously large amounts of money (in the minds of the executives, anyways).

Lol,

Just because I gave up doesn’t mean I agreed with you. Actually quite the opposite. I just realized what I was dealing with.

This statement did it for me. I realized it was pointless. You are essentially gas lighting this thread.

A weight speed formula still works for a leisure product or a cargo product but the same weight and speed factors cannot be used; the yield in the leisure market is less (i.e. no business class) and same for cargo. So taking the full fare passenger airline revenue generating capability factors and applying them to cargo is disingenuous.

You are making crap up........or it has been spoon fed.

You know, if you invested a fraction of the time you spend on this forum chirping away and used it to study the history of pilot unions and our pay structure, you wouldn't look quite as foolish. I invite you to read "Flying the Line - The First Half Century of the Airline Pilots Association"
(https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 5q34cEujdo)
where you will learn that history of formula pay. Just in case you can't be bothered to do so, there is a quote from this book (page 71) that puts the lie to your claim that I am making this stuff up:

Because of ALPA’s steadfast support of FDR during the airmail crisis,the President subsequently showed his gratitude by insisting that the temporary mail contractors pay their pilots by the formula specified in Decision 83of the National Labor Board (NLB). Decision 83 required airlines to compensate their pilots on the basis of both the mileage and the time they flew.This formula guaranteed pilots a share in the increased productivity of the
equipment they flew In short, a pilot flying Long & Harmon’s Ford Trimotor might not work any more hours than one flying a Stinson Reliant, but the
law required that he be paid more because the Ford flew faster.

I have read the book. My gas lighting comment was regarding your spin logic. It wasn’t meant to say there were no elements of truth in what you had to say. By definition that is what gaslighting is. Truth turned upside down and inside out to create a different reality. It comes with an abundance of rationalization, justifications and excuses as a warning sign. If you need rationalizations to make an argument you probably should not be making the argument In the first place.

As an example. Do you realize you used a quote talking about the history of cargo contractors getting formula pay to justify your position cargo pilots at Air Canada should not get formula pay.

Take a peek at the pilot wages across the boarder. Not to compare with Canadian wages. Rather to compare the wages of US full service airlines vs Fedex and UPS.

Let's do that. Using Airline Pilot Central, here are the hourly rates for 12 year B767 Captains ($ USD):
Delta - $296
FedEx - $326
Atlas Air Cargo - $196

As you can see, FedEx is the highest paid. But before you get all excited, remember that FedEx is more than a cargo airline - it offers a full, end-to-end product from pick-up to delivery, which not only attracts a premium but also differentiates itself from a pure cargo airline. Next, is the Delta Airlines passenger guy at $296 and finally, the pure cargo pilot at Atlas at $196.

Delta - Atlas is the best comparison for the reasons mentioned above and you will see that the Atlas pilots are working at a 1/3 discount to what a mainline airline B767 Captain is making. AC's proposed 10% reduction from a mainline B767 rate for an all cargo operation compared to the mainline passenger operation is a good deal in comparison. So this US only comparison of relative wages (mainline versus cargo), as you suggested, further undermines your point.

So, in addition to do some reading about the history of our pay structure, perhaps take a little time and so some research about what is going on across the border too.

Here you go again. You found a rationalization as to why FEDEX and UPS pilots are not Cargo pilots.

[PROC_HDG]

Mike,

You're spending an awful lot of time on avcanada for a guy getting paid 82 hours.

I would say "get back to work" but every bit of work you do cheapens and degrades our profession even further.

So maybe, just carry on then.

[RippleRock]

Geeeez.......I think the Corp is regretting not asking for a permanent 25% pay cut to fly the same aircraft we have flown since 1983. ACPA would have no doubt endorsed it and sold it to the Membership with a threat. Why bother with a contract at all? Seriously.

Brilliant. There is no hope for us going forward, not one shred.

FWIW, Good luck being taken seriously in future negotiations. What a joke.

[RippleRock]

There is nowhere but down now. Rest in Peace AC Pilots.

The career and respect our fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers forged over decades of solidarity and self-sacrifice officially ended today.

Remember this date. November 23rd, 2020.

It's been a good ride.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Just got a call from a friend of mine who flies for Delta. He couldn’t believe it passed. Our union is officially the laughing stock of the industry now. Congratulations ACPA! At least you’re #1 at something I guess?

[a220hereicome]

There is nowhere but down now. Rest in Peace AC Pilots.

The career and respect our fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers forged over decades of solidarity and self-sacrifice officially ended today.

Remember this date. November 23rd, 2020.

It's been a good ride.

Right...

Remember in 2017? “OMG, ACrouge will have 200 airplanes next year. It’s all over.”

[HavaJava]

Right...

Remember in 2017? “OMG, ACrouge will have 200 airplanes next year. It’s all over.”

Remember in 2009? “It will only be 5 dash-8’s out of the island that none of our members want to fly anyway”

[RippleRock]

There is nowhere but down now. Rest in Peace AC Pilots.

The career and respect our fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers forged over decades of solidarity and self-sacrifice officially ended today.

Remember this date. November 23rd, 2020.

It's been a good ride.

Right...

Remember in 2017? “OMG, ACrouge will have 200 airplanes next year. It’s all over.”

When you don't have the balls to draw a line in the sand, one will be drawn for you. ACPA has proven it has ZERO ability to bargain for anything but concessions. Period.

ACPA pilots are a bunch of Muppets lead by morons. They don't deserve the respect of other international aviation professionals. They are no longer their peers.

[Sceptical]

Here you go again. You found a rationalization as to why FEDEX and UPS pilots are not Cargo pilots.

FedEx and UPS pilots fly cargo, there is no denying that, but FedEx and UPS are more than just cargo airlines; they provide the full, end-to-end cargo delivery from pick-up, flight and delivery at the other end and charge a premium for that.

It's like the difference between using H & R Block and an accountant to do your taxes. H & R Block can take the numbers and put them into a program and file your taxes, like your accountant can too, but the accountant does value added such as advising on tax strategy, optimizing taxes, etc. And that is why it costs more to have an accountant do your taxes and why an accountant gets paid from than a clerk at H & R Block.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Here you go again. You found a rationalization as to why FEDEX and UPS pilots are not Cargo pilots.

FedEx and UPS pilots fly cargo, there is no denying that, but FedEx and UPS are more than just cargo airlines; they provide the full, end-to-end cargo delivery from pick-up, flight and delivery at the other end and charge a premium for that.

It's like the difference between using H & R Block and an accountant to do your taxes. H & R Block can take the numbers and put them into a program and file your taxes, like your accountant can too, but the accountant does value added such as advising on tax strategy, optimizing taxes, etc. And that is why it costs more to have an accountant do your taxes and why an accountant gets paid from than a clerk at H & R Block.

Give it a rest already

[bcflyer]

[
It has been my experience over the years that those that like to name call, particularly calling one a union lackie or someone mimicking the union line, are those that have never spent any time either doing union work, particularly at an MEC or Negotiating Committee level, or have never negotiated anything more substantial than a mortgage or a car loan.

Having done both of these activities (union and negotiating business deals) it is easy to recognize individuals like yourself as those of your ilk seem to thing that you can wave your hands, stomp your feet and the party opposite will roll over. I don't fault individuals like yourself for your ignorance of how the big, wide world works. Perhaps some acknowledgement of your short comings would be nice but at minimum how about just dispensing with the denigrating comments about being an embarrassment to the occupation. And better yet, how about volunteering for your union as you will find it an interesting, rewarding and educational experience.

This is the same tired old line I’ve gotten for years from union officials who can’t justify why they are selling out their constituents, lowering the bar and cozying up to management. Give it a rest.

[Sceptical]

Here you go again. You found a rationalization as to why FEDEX and UPS pilots are not Cargo pilots.

FedEx and UPS pilots fly cargo, there is no denying that, but FedEx and UPS are more than just cargo airlines; they provide the full, end-to-end cargo delivery from pick-up, flight and delivery at the other end and charge a premium for that.

It's like the difference between using H & R Block and an accountant to do your taxes. H & R Block can take the numbers and put them into a program and file your taxes, like your accountant can too, but the accountant does value added such as advising on tax strategy, optimizing taxes, etc. And that is why it costs more to have an accountant do your taxes and why an accountant gets paid from than a clerk at H & R Block.

Give it a rest already

Dude,

Clearly Fanblade needs to have the difference between a courier service and a cargo airline explained to him. If you don't like it, too bad.

[PostmasterGeneral]

If you don't like it, too bad.

The ACPA mandate.

[BTD]

If you don't like it, too bad.

The ACPA mandate.

..............

[bcflyer]

If you don't like it, too bad.

The ACPA mandate.

Sad but true.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

If you don't like it, too bad.

The ACPA mandate.

Sad but true.

I thought it was

"We will get'em next time"

And yes, the condescending tone is no less than our own MEC Chair on AvCanada.

Johnny767 is out and "Sceptical" is in

You are an embarrassment

[Johnny767]

P.M.G, be very thankful this passed, or your arrogant millennial @ss would be laid off a whole lot longer.

[bcflyer]

P.M.G, be very thankful this passed, or your arrogant millennial @ss would be laid off a whole lot longer.

You really think they are going to do recalls because this POS passed? We still have 197 pilots deemed as surplus, a reduction in 777 flying and you think they will be recalling?

[green_guy]

I'm very glad to see this has been approved by the membership. I know it's not a popular opinion (on here anyway) but this is good for all AC pilots, especially those hoping to keep their jobs, those looking to return and the entire AC enterprise. I hope this is successful and grows to include more 767s and larger types too.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

P.M.G, be very thankful this passed, or your arrogant millennial @ss would be laid off a whole lot longer.

Spoken like a true leader

We truly are a laughing stock

[alkaseltzer]

I am in the surplus list so dont talk to me about being junior.
I will say that when this gets voted down, and I really hope it will, you can thank the active pilots who voted to keep your wage where it should be when you get recalled. If you want to work for less money feel free to apply at flair or swoop. I'm sure one of those pilots would gladly switch with you and support keeping our wages where they should be.
BTW your rambling is almost incoherent. How did you get hired in the first place?

Surplus list...so you enjoy getting paid while doing zero work. And hustling on the side. Good job on VPFO for promoting socialist zealots like you.

Fyi, Flair and swoop are paying all their pilots...on CEWS. Higher than us furloughed pilots which are getting zero. Get your facts straight. Guess it's too easy to ramble when you're bringing home a paycheck.

With your volatility and hint of elitism, I'd almost ask if you were RGs kid, clearly you're not MMs kid (on furlough).

And that's the last I'm going to talk about this subject, diss all you want. Let's see what the vote says.

It's guys like yourself that are singlehandedly destroying our profession.....Why did you come to AC if you wanted to work for FLAIR/WJ WAWCON?
I understand being furloughed is stressful, bitch and complain to your friends, be angry thats totally understandable, but don't sell what you and I have worked so damn hard to get to, down the drain......You will be back on the line before you know it.

Ah buttercup. The vote passed. 60% YES.

- Mic drop -

Y'all sounding like every Fox News anchor. Or like little chihuauas, they always make the most noise.

Aren't you glad this cargo deal wasn't subcontracted out? Did you NOT read the fine print of Covid #2 MOA? Aren't you glad that the next chess move wasn't a Air Canada Cargo subsidiary that was independent of our seniority list? Jazz Cargo? Skycargo? Evas Cargo?

And it will be 2-3 years before I get recalled; upon vaccine approval, furloughs can anticipate early 2022 at the least. Pure logistics and common sense.

Just think, the opportunity, the faster it will be to get our pilots off flat pay into the left seat; this is ORGANIC growth, not waiting for people to wise up to Trudeau/Dr Tam's weak leadership. Any junior-Jazz-turned-AC-pilot-in-under-24-months that were outspoken against it, are too used to having things handed to them on a silver platter.

Let this be a lesson to all those that read the empty posts - we have narcissistic pilots that use Tik-Tok, who also think they are an extension of the Trump administration.

There are reasonable people/pilots within our ranks.