Cargo TA

[tony ledsham]

P.M.G, be very thankful this passed, or your arrogant millennial @ss would be laid off a whole lot longer.

Let me guess: John Jerry?

You need to do some research. You are way out of line.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

Any predictions on the next concessions?

No way it stops here.

They just got to spread a little fear on a concession cake, put it in the oven for 20% off and boom another win for Team ACPA & The Company

[eep...2 Green]

Surplus list...so you enjoy getting paid while doing zero work. And hustling on the side. Good job on VPFO for promoting socialist zealots like you.

Fyi, Flair and swoop are paying all their pilots...on CEWS. Higher than us furloughed pilots which are getting zero. Get your facts straight. Guess it's too easy to ramble when you're bringing home a paycheck.

With your volatility and hint of elitism, I'd almost ask if you were RGs kid, clearly you're not MMs kid (on furlough).

And that's the last I'm going to talk about this subject, diss all you want. Let's see what the vote says.

It's guys like yourself that are singlehandedly destroying our profession.....Why did you come to AC if you wanted to work for FLAIR/WJ WAWCON?
I understand being furloughed is stressful, bitch and complain to your friends, be angry thats totally understandable, but don't sell what you and I have worked so damn hard to get to, down the drain......You will be back on the line before you know it.

Ah buttercup. The vote passed. 60% YES.

- Mic drop -

Y'all sounding like every Fox News anchor. Or like little chihuauas, they always make the most noise.

Aren't you glad this cargo deal wasn't subcontracted out? Did you NOT read the fine print of Covid #2 MOA? Aren't you glad that the next chess move wasn't a Air Canada Cargo subsidiary that was independent of our seniority list? Jazz Cargo? Skycargo? Evas Cargo?

And it will be 2-3 years before I get recalled; upon vaccine approval, furloughs can anticipate early 2022 at the least. Pure logistics and common sense.

Just think, the opportunity, the faster it will be to get our pilots off flat pay into the left seat; this is ORGANIC growth, not waiting for people to wise up to Trudeau/Dr Tam's weak leadership. Any junior-Jazz-turned-AC-pilot-in-under-24-months that were outspoken against it, are too used to having things handed to them on a silver platter.

Let this be a lesson to all those that read the empty posts - we have narcissistic pilots that use Tik-Tok, who also think they are an extension of the Trump administration.

There are reasonable people/pilots within our ranks.

It passed with a shade over 52% of those who voted. A failure of the MEC, as their goal is 50.1% in order to achieve maximum concessions. This will be a lesson learned, there was more to give. I wonder how the "whoopsie" in their presentation manifested? An honest mistake...

[Johnny767]

Who said anything about recalls? This Airline could layoff another 1500 Pilots tomorrow, this is jobs and revenue, both desperately needed. When this mess started I wrote the MEC and said I would be happy with a 50% paycut to save jobs, we took a 30+% cut.

The entitled opinions from the laid off crowd has me saying, give me back my 80 hours.

[a220hereicome]

It passed with a shade over 52% of those who voted.

Nope. Read the result.

It passed with 60% of those who voted.

52% of eligible voters said yes, 34% of eligible voters said no.

13% didn't vote, and if you choose not to vote, you don't count. I think furloughed members should have a vote, but that would require a change to the constitution.

Still, 87% turnout is an encouraging number for member engagement.

['97 Tercel]

Top of the page, suckas!

What's the best headset to wear in a 767?

[altiplano]

It passed with a shade over 52% of those who voted.

Nope. Read the result.

It passed with 60.3% of those who voted.

52% of all eligible voters said yes, 34% of eligible voters said no.

13% didn't vote, and if you choose not to vote, you don't count. I think furloughed/LOA members should have a vote, but that would require a change to the constitution.

Still, 87% turnout is an encouraging number for member engagement.

Actually it was 59.7% Yes of the voters that bothered.

ACPA couldn't even get the fracking math right. Just like their wage comparison slides in the webinar.

ACPA can't get anything right, is everyone ready for the reopener concessions now?

[Oxi]

LOA pilots got a vote but not furloughed. hmm

[Eddietheeagle]

Surplus list...so you enjoy getting paid while doing zero work. And hustling on the side. Good job on VPFO for promoting socialist zealots like you.

Fyi, Flair and swoop are paying all their pilots...on CEWS. Higher than us furloughed pilots which are getting zero. Get your facts straight. Guess it's too easy to ramble when you're bringing home a paycheck.

With your volatility and hint of elitism, I'd almost ask if you were RGs kid, clearly you're not MMs kid (on furlough).

And that's the last I'm going to talk about this subject, diss all you want. Let's see what the vote says.

It's guys like yourself that are singlehandedly destroying our profession.....Why did you come to AC if you wanted to work for FLAIR/WJ WAWCON?
I understand being furloughed is stressful, bitch and complain to your friends, be angry thats totally understandable, but don't sell what you and I have worked so damn hard to get to, down the drain......You will be back on the line before you know it.

Ah buttercup. The vote passed. 60% YES.

- Mic drop -

Y'all sounding like every Fox News anchor. Or like little chihuauas, they always make the most noise.

Aren't you glad this cargo deal wasn't subcontracted out? Did you NOT read the fine print of Covid #2 MOA? Aren't you glad that the next chess move wasn't a Air Canada Cargo subsidiary that was independent of our seniority list? Jazz Cargo? Skycargo? Evas Cargo?

And it will be 2-3 years before I get recalled; upon vaccine approval, furloughs can anticipate early 2022 at the least. Pure logistics and common sense.

Just think, the opportunity, the faster it will be to get our pilots off flat pay into the left seat; this is ORGANIC growth, not waiting for people to wise up to Trudeau/Dr Tam's weak leadership. Any junior-Jazz-turned-AC-pilot-in-under-24-months that were outspoken against it, are too used to having things handed to them on a silver platter.

Let this be a lesson to all those that read the empty posts - we have narcissistic pilots that use Tik-Tok, who also think they are an extension of the Trump administration.

There are reasonable people/pilots within our ranks.

That’ll be 2-3 years to soon for you.

[alkaseltzer]

It's guys like yourself that are singlehandedly destroying our profession.....Why did you come to AC if you wanted to work for FLAIR/WJ WAWCON?
I understand being furloughed is stressful, bitch and complain to your friends, be angry thats totally understandable, but don't sell what you and I have worked so damn hard to get to, down the drain......You will be back on the line before you know it.

Ah buttercup. The vote passed. 60% YES.

- Mic drop -

Y'all sounding like every Fox News anchor. Or like little chihuauas, they always make the most noise.

Aren't you glad this cargo deal wasn't subcontracted out? Did you NOT read the fine print of Covid #2 MOA? Aren't you glad that the next chess move wasn't a Air Canada Cargo subsidiary that was independent of our seniority list? Jazz Cargo? Skycargo? Evas Cargo?

And it will be 2-3 years before I get recalled; upon vaccine approval, furloughs can anticipate early 2022 at the least. Pure logistics and common sense.

Just think, the opportunity, the faster it will be to get our pilots off flat pay into the left seat; this is ORGANIC growth, not waiting for people to wise up to Trudeau/Dr Tam's weak leadership. Any junior-Jazz-turned-AC-pilot-in-under-24-months that were outspoken against it, are too used to having things handed to them on a silver platter.

Let this be a lesson to all those that read the empty posts - we have narcissistic pilots that use Tik-Tok, who also think they are an extension of the Trump administration.

There are reasonable people/pilots within our ranks.

That’ll be 2-3 years to soon for you.

I'm not sure I follow your grammar. If you are implying that recalls will be 2-3 years at a minimum, in complete absence of external factors, I absolutely agree. However, a lot will happen, both good and bad between here and say 2024. Ie. WWIII may start before we have a vaccine in our hands.

Just making the point that cargo operations is organic growth. You just don't do 3000+ cargo flights without a strong team working in the background AND on aircraft that aren't even properly configured for it.

Two 767s to be configured by year end - for now. Cargojet has what, 24 freighters? At the time of this writing, ACs market value has increased by 38% over the last 30 days, and Cargojet has dropped more than 10%.

AJ Virmani and George Sugar are starting to lose sleep now.

Waiting for AJ to say again, "this industry is at my beckon with a stroke of my pen!"

[altiplano]

LOA pilots got a vote but not furloughed. hmm

All inactive pilots aren't eligible to vote, LOA, furlough, etc.

[landshark]

LOA pilots can vote - I did myself and I’m on an LOA

[Art Garfunkel]

LOA pilots can vote - I did myself and I’m on an LOA

Whaaat? Seriously?

[a220hereicome]

LOA pilots can vote - I did myself and I’m on an LOA

Send in Team Giuliani!

[altiplano]

LOA pilots can vote - I did myself and I’m on an LOA

When did your LOA start?

[landshark]

1 month LOA for the Nov block month.

[Fanblade]

The vote is what it is. Basically 60/40.

I’m a little hesitant to post this because I’m fully aware of the backlash that can happen when you call someone out. But against part of me saying no no no no no. I’m doing it anyway.

In the aftermath of this vote I think it is probably worthwhile looking at how much gaslighting creeped into this debate toward the end, and who was doing it. Not just on this forum either. I think it is worthwhile looking at it because gaslighting is a control technique that is very effective and can be deployed often very subtly. Some people who gaslight know full well what they are doing, others have bought into their own version of altered facts. They need to find an argument to justify a position and in the absence of a good argument they resort to gaslighting.

I will give you a really obvious example. Let’s say my wife and I are trying to decide what colour the walls should be painted to match the decor of a room. My wife says I think this colour goes well with our brown couch. I say (gaslighting) that couch isn’t brown, it’s purple. By doing this I completely altered the expected normal assumptions of the debate. So much so that my wife can no longer discuss decor, but rather needs to start arguing the colour of the couch. Like quicksand I pulled the rug out from under her argument by simply questioning her reality.

But that is an obvious example. Gaslighting like that won’t achieve result. Gaslighting to be effective needs to be subtle.

For example a statement like this.

First of all, this is not a 10% pay cut; you can't cut something you've never had and AC pilots have never had, in over 25 years, a dedicated cargo operation, let alone one flying B767's. So let's call the proposed pay what it is - a competitive pay rate.

Now go read article 12 of our collective agreement and read what it says.

That is gaslighting. If you look through the posts in this thread you will see multiple example of someone trying to call a brown couch purple. If you talked to an ACPA rep the same thing likely happened. An abundance of rationalizations, justifications and excuses is a big red flag. Gaslighters will typically refuse to back down from their position because their whole argument depends on buy in to their version. They will often start talking down to those who don’t buy in. Inferring someone isn’t very smart if they don’t buy in.

The best way to deal with gaslighters and make their behaviour ineffective is to step back and do a gut check. Trust yourself and ask. Does this make sense to me? If you have any doubt start looking deeper. The gaslighter relies on people only making a cursory review of what they are saying.

[Tdicommuter]

Very well put.

I still have not had anyone explain ( and it seems like some of the MEC look at this) how this does not set a precedence for all narrow body jets to work 18-19 days a month? That simple. Easy question is actually like to know the answer to. Nothing political or heinous... Just how am I guaranteed that I won't need to work more every month?

[Sceptical]

Psychology Today (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/gaslighting): Gaslighting is an insidious form of manipulation and psychological control. Victims of gaslighting are deliberately and systematically fed false information that leads them to question what they know to be true, often about themselves. They may end up doubting their memory, their perception, and even their sanity. Over time, a gaslighter’s manipulations can grow more complex and potent, making it increasingly difficult for the victim to see the truth.

Psychology Today (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... aslighting): Gaslighting is a tactic in which a person or entity, in order to gain more power, makes a victim question their reality. It works much better than you may think. Anyone is susceptible to gaslighting, and it is a common technique of abusers, dictators, narcissists, and cult leaders. It is done slowly, so the victim doesn't realize how much they've been brainwashed. For example, in the movie Gaslight (1944), a man manipulates his wife to the point where she thinks she is losing her mind.

You, sir, are grossly misusing this term. You seem to think that one challenging your posts or assumptions is some sort of attempt to victimize you, manipulate you, brainwash you, etc. No, what you interpret as gaslighting is nothing more than someone challenging your assumptions.

In the case you cited (attributed to myself), all I was doing was challenging your paradigm that a B767 mainline passenger pilot is taking a 10% pay cut to be a B767 cargo pilot. Air Canada has not had a cargo pilot pay scale for ages let alone one for the B767. Moreover, in a later post I demonstrated that cargo pilots flying the same aircraft make less than courier company pilots flying the same aircraft (FedEx, etc.) as well as mainline B767 pilots (Delta in the US). Others demonstrated that Cathay pilots flying cargo make less than their passenger colleagues.

That is not gaslighting - take a look at the definitions above. Please do not use terms which are entirely inappropriate.

[TheStig]

Good post Fanblade, I feel like I need to reread my own posts.

Tdi, the narrow body cap was negotiated, even then there are senior pilots who don't like it because of the pairing swaps that result. Apparently their 'right to work 8 days or less should trump someone else's not to work more than 16. The MEC was asked about why a lower cap wasn't negotiated in the MOA and their response was that the 767's didn't have one before and essentially they wanted to keep the MOA under the existing contract. That is the philosophy of this MEC, 1 contract, terrible working conditions be damned. LOU74 would have provided the airline with a 13%+ reduction in hourly rates and the pilots with a 16 day cap.

I was disappointed with the result but not surprised, it is good to see a large turnout. The seeds of discontent starting to sprout feel very similar to 2009 these days. Much like 10 years ago the airline isn't in a great financial position but I think most people feel its well positioned for the next upswing, and yet, the voting block on the MEC seems determined to 'help' in anyway it can. Every presentation starts with a review of the difficult position the airline is in and how competitors have an advantage. This MOA feels every bit like the scope let that allowed Sky Regional to start, at least is was a vote and not a poll.

2024 is coming fast and I hope that everyone can stay engaged, hopefully everyone with a number is back on the property to cast their votes soon, the next round of elections will determine who is still at the table.

[DanWEC]

I'm not familiar with the details of this TA, but it seems like it's a concession in order to diversify flying?

My question is, how long is the agreement good for?

In a couple years tops the industry will be back to normal growth, but will pilots still be laboring under the terms of this TA, made in a major downturn?
It seems like even in the absolute best of times nothing but a zero sum can be negotiated, no real gains, but here's a great company opportunity to package a contract that cements things downwards for years to come, setting a new medium for zero sum agreements.
Am I wrong? Personally, I'd much rather be laid off for 6 months than be suffering the effects of a bad deal 5 years down the road.
Could be wrong, just curious.

[skypirate88]

I'm not familiar with the details of this TA, but it seems like it's a concession in order to diversify flying?

My question is, how long is the agreement good for?

In a couple years tops the industry will be back to normal growth, but will pilots still be laboring under the terms of this TA, made in a major downturn?
It seems like even in the absolute best of times nothing but a zero sum can be negotiated, no real gains, but here's a great company opportunity to package a contract that cements things downwards for years to come, setting a new medium for zero sum agreements.
Am I wrong? Personally, I'd much rather be laid off for 6 months than be suffering the effects of a bad deal 5 years down the road.
Could be wrong, just curious.

It's a permanent concession, something that seems to have been lost on some people. No snap back at all.

The company and the MEC just inserted yet another division which will be exploited in future negots. Look how much capital has been spent to bring up the Rouge WAWCON over the years, often at the expense of the Mainline conditions.

We are busy worrying about what tomorrow has in store, but that outcome was decided 6 months ago. We need to stop worrying about tomorrow and start worrying about 6-12 months from now.

[RippleRock]

I'm not familiar with the details of this TA, but it seems like it's a concession in order to diversify flying?

My question is, how long is the agreement good for?

In a couple years tops the industry will be back to normal growth, but will pilots still be laboring under the terms of this TA, made in a major downturn?
It seems like even in the absolute best of times nothing but a zero sum can be negotiated, no real gains, but here's a great company opportunity to package a contract that cements things downwards for years to come, setting a new medium for zero sum agreements.
Am I wrong? Personally, I'd much rather be laid off for 6 months than be suffering the effects of a bad deal 5 years down the road.
Could be wrong, just curious.

It's a permanent concession, something that seems to have been lost on some people. No snap back at all.

The company and the MEC just inserted yet another division which will be exploited in future negots. Look how much capital has been spent to bring up the Rouge WAWCON over the years, often at the expense of the Mainline conditions.

We are busy worrying about what tomorrow has in store, but that outcome was decided 6 months ago. We need to stop worrying about tomorrow and start worrying about 6-12 months from now.

It's too late. We have shown our hand. We are prepared to accept permanent wage concessions and further division of our unity. We are the only Major Airline pilot body on the planet willingly voting in permanent concessions, and the only with A, B, C, D and now E wage scales.

This was OK'd by the Membership. We have nowhere to go but down as we will not be taken seriously in future negotiations.....ever.

That's it.

[FL320]

I'm not familiar with the details of this TA, but it seems like it's a concession in order to diversify flying?

My question is, how long is the agreement good for?

In a couple years tops the industry will be back to normal growth, but will pilots still be laboring under the terms of this TA, made in a major downturn?
It seems like even in the absolute best of times nothing but a zero sum can be negotiated, no real gains, but here's a great company opportunity to package a contract that cements things downwards for years to come, setting a new medium for zero sum agreements.
Am I wrong? Personally, I'd much rather be laid off for 6 months than be suffering the effects of a bad deal 5 years down the road.
Could be wrong, just curious.

It's a permanent concession, something that seems to have been lost on some people. No snap back at all.

The company and the MEC just inserted yet another division which will be exploited in future negots. Look how much capital has been spent to bring up the Rouge WAWCON over the years, often at the expense of the Mainline conditions.

We are busy worrying about what tomorrow has in store, but that outcome was decided 6 months ago. We need to stop worrying about tomorrow and start worrying about 6-12 months from now.

It's too late. We have shown our hand. We are prepared to accept permanent wage concessions and further division of our unity. We are the only Major Airline pilot body on the planet willingly voting in permanent concessions, and the only with A, B, C, D and now E wage scales.

This was OK'd by the Membership. We have nowhere to go but down as we will not be taken seriously in future negotiations.....ever.

That's it.

And soon F scale when Air Canada will negotiate with Transat’s union. But with 90% of the workforce currently on the CEWS at 1500$ per month, it does not look good unfortunately. Hopefully there will be some unity!

[RippleRock]

ACPA has proven that they actively endorse division and lower wages. End of story.