rookiepilot wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:15 pm
If it's serious enough to be clinical depression --- which is a whole lot different than "burn out" -- whatever that means ---
You're doing it again. Clinical depression is real, but "burn out" deserves quotes and a "whatever that means"? Seriously?
Yes they are different, but both have serious consequences for ones mental health.
rookiepilot wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:15 pm
These terms aren't to be thrown around lightly, and agreeing for a second that a lousy flight training experience is likely ever the cause of a serious, major life issue isn't doing anyone any favours.
How often is depression caused by a single issue? How often does it have a single cause?
It is entirely plausible that a never ending frustration with trying to achieve your dream and seeing that reward and achievement pushed out of reach time after time, could be the significant issue that pushes you to just beyond what you can tolerate, making you wonder if you should give up.
There is a lot of research into burnout if anyone cares to look. Depression is a common symptom of burnout. Like depression, burnout varies in severity, and it definitely sounds like the OP Is somewhere on that scale.
It's ridiculous to say that any particular set of circumstances aren't sufficient to produce burnout or depression. The circumstances necessary to produce very severe depression and burnout are actually a lot less than you would imagine, and if you find yourself on that road you really should do something about it sooner rather than later.
digits_ wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:59 pm
If you start comparing the shit life has thrown at you as a benchmark to decide whether or not someone has the right to call himself depressed or burned out, you're destroying everything you've tried to build up in other threads.
Depression isn’t a charter right: it’s a diagnosis, and a serious medical disorder.
Agreed. But if an undiagnosed depressed or burned out person is afraid to seek help because he hasn't had a certain amount of shit in his life, then he might never get that diagnosis and/or the help needed.
So implying that a certain situation is not enough to be considered burned out, does not help anyone.
You can call yourself whatever you want, but if a couple of questions on an anonymous web forum are enough to tip you away from seeking medical help for a serious mental health condition, I’m going to suggest that is not the time to be worrying about non-existent pilot career, and that there are some other things you should prioritize in your life and development.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
rookiepilot wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:15 pm
If it's serious enough to be clinical depression --- which is a whole lot different than "burn out" -- whatever that means ---
You're doing it again. Clinical depression is real, but "burn out" deserves quotes and a "whatever that means"? Seriously?
Yes they are different, but both have serious consequences for ones mental health.
rookiepilot wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:15 pm
These terms aren't to be thrown around lightly, and agreeing for a second that a lousy flight training experience is likely ever the cause of a serious, major life issue isn't doing anyone any favours.
How often is depression caused by a single issue? How often does it have a single cause?
It is entirely plausible that a never ending frustration with trying to achieve your dream and seeing that reward and achievement pushed out of reach time after time, could be the significant issue that pushes you to just beyond what you can tolerate, making you wonder if you should give up.
Bingo! I'd never make fun of depression or someone who claims to feel that way as I've lost people in my life to it.
The fact I don't even enjoy this anymore (is this normal in training?) along with all the BS that is coming up in training, and not being able to see a clear path to a livable career has burnt me out in terms of pursuing flying. (Burnout in my mind is when the energy to keep going is well above the energy you have available)
I'm not depressed, but my hobby (and what was to be a future career) turning into a liability did take a big hit on my happiness.
photofly wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:49 pm
if a couple of questions on an anonymous web forum are enough to tip you away from seeking medical help for a serious mental health condition, I’m going to suggest that is not the time to be worrying about non-existent pilot career, and that there are some other things you should prioritize in your life and development.
Maybe. It's a cumulative process.
I'd wager that remarks in a topic specifically about this situation, would probably hold a bit more weight to the OP than a random tweet by an idiot on twitter. A topic on a forum that had some interesting discussions about depression and mental health, and seemed to encourage people to look for help and reach out etc. Then some of those same people that posted warm and encouraging messages suddenly have a real cavalier attitude towards OP's problem and want to decide what does and does not qualify as a serious issue? I think something like this might have more effect than you'd think. This info is being read and asked for by someone who admits that he isn't in the best place mentally in the first place.
And in the unlikely scenario that the OP is pulling our leg, there are 1481 other people reading this topic. Chances are there are a few in there that may not be doing too well either.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
I would urge you to seek the help you think you might need in an appropriate place. Wanting to give up is normal. There are millions of people thinking the same thing as you, but expounding on an aviation employment site will most certainly not advance your career, and may well preclude it completely. Please seek help with your qualified health professionals.
As a former health professional myself, who found every single step difficult, in both my professions (aviation and health) I would say that if the targets are continually being missed, put the weapon down, and go up and readjust the target. You would be surprised how well you can do after that!
First - Tuza, your story is truly inspiring. I honestly don't think I would have accomplished half what you did, were I in your shoes.
Second - newlygrounded... please keep in mind that putting your training on hold does not mean giving up entirely. Tuza's story is a testament to that. You can always come back and finish later. Please don't give up on the dream.
Thanks! And agreed @newlygrounded - just keep going.
photofly wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:16 pm
I, too, admire your tenacity, but I can’t help wondering what the frig is so difficult about flying a little airplane that it takes 300 pages to write it all down.
I'm a mom of 3. If you don't prepare and plan, they will EAT you ALIVE.
Also, like to be more prepared than not. Like bringing a winter kit...may not need it...but I want everything in it.
Tuza wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:13 pm
Also, like to be more prepared than not. Like bringing a winter kit...may not need it...but I want everything in it.
You should see my winter auto kit. It has everything right down to a plumbing torch to work stuck lug nuts loose.
Tuza wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:13 pm
Also, like to be more prepared than not. Like bringing a winter kit...may not need it...but I want everything in it.
You should see my winter auto kit. It has everything right down to a plumbing torch to work stuck lug nuts loose.
newlygrounded wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:37 pm
A few years ago I started with a goal of working for a big airline in a few years, I was in my mid 20's and didn't have to money to commit to flying so I just studied theory and saved up for the flying. 4 years later I've been flying as much as I can but due to weather and how busy schools have been I'm multiple years into getting a PPL and there is still no end in sight! A lot of drama at the school has really taken the wind out of my sails as well.
Even in the best of times a year ago the industry entails 5 or 6 years of poverty wages living somewhere far away (so all your income goes to rent) before you get get into one of our two major carriers. If you don't own a place you're SOL and unlikely to ever be able to afford ot buy one.
Even once your in the pay, and job security is pretty terrible for the first few years. It looks like things are actually going to be even worse after the recovery due to weak bargaining.
I'm not sure if anyone else will disagree but I feel if you're in your 20's or 30's this career will take a giant bite out of you, and washing out with leave you with a lot of regret.
I am calling this post a troll. Nobody started any Career, or job for that matter, at the very top. And to expect anything like your so called “dream” to materialize is a joke.
It’s called life and yes it’s hard. You have to work and suck stuff up. The time you apparently spent on your so called training shows to me your commitment to working hard, in my opinion. How many flight hours do you actually have?
Maybe ask around to anyone over 50 who is successful what they did in their 20’s and 30’s and i bet it will be similar to what you describe as being the “ once you’re in” scenario. Jobs are fleeting and unsecure at any time like you describe as now. And i will assure you, they stared at the entry level and worked their asses off, i bet. and if you see them as successful and achieving their goals it is, I guarantee you because of hard work and dedication. Not luck or being “given” something. What i did during my 20’s to get to where i am today was a result of hard work dedication and the application of learning and self improvement. I am just a lowly PPL so you can take my advise for what it is worth. But remember this even doctors need to intern and work 12 hour days for no pay. Let that sink in.
I usually don’t feed trolls but i am seeing this whole sense of entitlement being displayed by the younger generation more and more in not just work situations but in day to day interactions with younger people more and more. As if coming to work to give service is doing me some sort of favour; or thinking that because they are here now they deserve to be a CEO or whatever. I have to work constantly to correct my kids when they display this behaviour but i fear they will be well amongst the minority.
I can’t believe anyone seriously thinks this way or expects to be at a major airline in a couple of years and taking two or more to accomplish a ppl.
I would stay stick with it if you enjoy it. If not, it’s a bit of a waist of time, especially when you could be pursuing other things in life you truly enjoy more.
P.S. I am ignoring the comment above. The purpose of this thread is not to argue who has it worse between younger and older generations. But provide guidance.
I don’t think anyone me included is saying older people had it worse or better. I am injecting a large dose or reality to this original poster. To think that one can decide to get a job at the pinnacle of a career by attending few ppl lessons is delusional.
Even with the way it was last year nobody has ever gone from a ppl at a ftu to right seat at a even regional in two years without attending a flight college.
It’s called reality. And feeling like you want to be a pilot does not make you one. And minimal effort is a half assed excuse at “trying”
newlygrounded wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:37 pm
A few years ago I started with a goal of working for a big airline in a few years, I was in my mid 20's and didn't have to money to commit to flying so I just studied theory and saved up for the flying. 4 years later I've been flying as much as I can but due to weather and how busy schools have been I'm multiple years into getting a PPL and there is still no end in sight! A lot of drama at the school has really taken the wind out of my sails as well.
Even in the best of times a year ago the industry entails 5 or 6 years of poverty wages living somewhere far away (so all your income goes to rent) before you get get into one of our two major carriers. If you don't own a place you're SOL and unlikely to ever be able to afford ot buy one.
Even once your in the pay, and job security is pretty terrible for the first few years. It looks like things are actually going to be even worse after the recovery due to weak bargaining.
I'm not sure if anyone else will disagree but I feel if you're in your 20's or 30's this career will take a giant bite out of you, and washing out with leave you with a lot of regret.
I am calling this post a troll. Nobody started any Career, or job for that matter, at the very top. And to expect anything like your so called “dream” to materialize is a joke.
It’s called life and yes it’s hard. You have to work and suck stuff up. The time you apparently spent on your so called training shows to me your commitment to working hard, in my opinion. How many flight hours do you actually have?
Maybe ask around to anyone over 50 who is successful what they did in their 20’s and 30’s and i bet it will be similar to what you describe as being the “ once you’re in” scenario. Jobs are fleeting and unsecure at any time like you describe as now. And i will assure you, they stared at the entry level and worked their asses off, i bet. and if you see them as successful and achieving their goals it is, I guarantee you because of hard work and dedication. Not luck or being “given” something. What i did during my 20’s to get to where i am today was a result of hard work dedication and the application of learning and self improvement. I am just a lowly PPL so you can take my advise for what it is worth. But remember this even doctors need to intern and work 12 hour days for no pay. Let that sink in.
I usually don’t feed trolls but i am seeing this whole sense of entitlement being displayed by the younger generation more and more in not just work situations but in day to day interactions with younger people more and more. As if coming to work to give service is doing me some sort of favour; or thinking that because they are here now they deserve to be a CEO or whatever. I have to work constantly to correct my kids when they display this behaviour but i fear they will be well amongst the minority.
I can’t believe anyone seriously thinks this way or expects to be at a major airline in a couple of years and taking two or more to accomplish a ppl.
You're probably the same guy who bought his house for 1/5th of the prices now then get mad when young people complain about rent.
Things are a lot harder for younger people now. Nobody is expecting to be CEO or fly 4 days a month in 5 years, but The cost of university houses and a PPL are basically 4 or more times higher than they were 20 years ago with salaries being the same or lower in real word dollars.
You're probably the same guy who bought his house for 1/5th of the prices now then get mad when young people complain about rent.
Yeah buddy i did while making 1/3 the wages that the same people are paid today. Ever hear of inflation? As i said before. It’s called life. Grow a set. And no, you or your situation is special or harder. If anything you have it way easier. Interest rates in the double digits? Yeah i have seen it and lived it. Every generation goes through hardships. We just did our best. But hey keep feeling sorry for yourself. Maybe you’re entitled to some compensation for your hardship. And i am done feeding trolls
Kejidog wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:23 pm
You're probably the same guy who bought his house for 1/5th of the prices now then get mad when young people complain about rent.
Yeah buddy i did while making 1/3 the wages that the same people are paid today. Ever hear of inflation? As i said before. It’s called life. Grow a set. And no, you or your situation is special or harder. If anything you have it way easier. Interest rates in the double digits? Yeah i have seen it and lived it. Every generation goes through hardships. We just did our best. But hey keep feeling sorry for yourself. Maybe you’re entitled to some compensation for your hardship. And i am done feeding trolls
I'm sorry, I usually stay out of these discussions, but this is simply untrue. It is hurtful, and insulting to people starting out today. Real wages, adjusted for inflation, have barely budged in 40 years. In that time the cost of a house has tripled (give or take... I may be exaggerating here but the point remains valid). Millenials are the first generation in living memory to earn less than their parents. (And for the record, no, I am not a millenial, so don't go there)
Kejidog wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:23 pm
You're probably the same guy who bought his house for 1/5th of the prices now then get mad when young people complain about rent.
Yeah buddy i did while making 1/3 the wages that the same people are paid today. Ever hear of inflation? As i said before. It’s called life. Grow a set. And no, you or your situation is special or harder. If anything you have it way easier. Interest rates in the double digits? Yeah i have seen it and lived it. Every generation goes through hardships. We just did our best. But hey keep feeling sorry for yourself. Maybe you’re entitled to some compensation for your hardship. And i am done feeding trolls
I'm sorry, I usually stay out of these discussions, but this is simply untrue. It is hurtful, and insulting to people starting out today. Real wages, adjusted for inflation, have barely budged in 40 years. In that time the cost of a house has tripled (give or take... I may be exaggerating here but the point remains valid). Millenials are the first generation in living memory to earn less than their parents. (And for the record, no, I am not a millenial, so don't go there)
This is also all very true. I'm just using home ownership as a proxy for everything else, and I admit that is a weak argument.
I myself have decided to become a pilot in midlife, and that basically means giving up on home ownership for the foreseeable future.
But here's some more food for thought - if we factor in gas alone, I'll bet the cost of flight training compared to wages has also doubled in the last 20 years. I haven't looked it up though.
I feel it's still relevant to the thread because despite all of the aforementioned, I have not given up.
Kejidog wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:23 pm
You're probably the same guy who bought his house for 1/5th of the prices now then get mad when young people complain about rent.
Yeah buddy i did while making 1/3 the wages that the same people are paid today. Ever hear of inflation? As i said before. It’s called life. Grow a set. And no, you or your situation is special or harder. If anything you have it way easier. Interest rates in the double digits? Yeah i have seen it and lived it. Every generation goes through hardships. We just did our best. But hey keep feeling sorry for yourself. Maybe you’re entitled to some compensation for your hardship. And i am done feeding trolls
I'm sorry, I usually stay out of these discussions, but this is simply untrue. It is hurtful, and insulting to people starting out today. Real wages, adjusted for inflation, have barely budged in 40 years. In that time the cost of a house has tripled (give or take... I may be exaggerating here but the point remains valid). Millenials are the first generation in living memory to earn less than their parents. (And for the record, no, I am not a millenial, so don't go there)
As a percentage of average income, the cost of the average house in Canada has gone up 50% since 1995 alone.
Get your head out of the sand. It really is harder to enter the housing market today.
This is all very true.
However it doesn't change the choices on whether to play or not.
One doesn't HAVE to own a house, nor own one in a large city.
One doesn't have to drop tens of thousands on flight training.
Neither were remotely an option for me, until well into my 30's.
Live smaller, simpler, cheaper, happier.
Have you seen the cities most airlines have bases in? They're not at all affordable to buy into or have insane seniority. At least 20 years ago if you started at AC you'd have a retirement pension that was guaranteed, now the only retirement most people can count on is selling their house. If you're joining the workforce recently you have neither option. Flight training prices are way higher now too and only going up.
It's not unusual for houses to have a 6 figure increases in a month lately
Kejidog wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:23 pm
You're probably the same guy who bought his house for 1/5th of the prices now then get mad when young people complain about rent.
Yeah buddy i did while making 1/3 the wages that the same people are paid today. Ever hear of inflation? As i said before. It’s called life. Grow a set. And no, you or your situation is special or harder. If anything you have it way easier. Interest rates in the double digits? Yeah i have seen it and lived it. Every generation goes through hardships. We just did our best. But hey keep feeling sorry for yourself. Maybe you’re entitled to some compensation for your hardship. And i am done feeding trolls
If anyone you disagree with is a troll in your mind you're going to have an incredibly hard time seeing others circumstances.
In the 80's it took 2 years working minimum wage (for a small airline, of course - wages never were very good), paying my parents rent, and flying on weekends. I thought that was a long time then.
Can I interject though about the "young vs old" thing? In the early 80's. Some of us could not get work in McDonalds, WITH our CPL, so yes, times change, and things are hard now for sure, but it is very difficult to compare. It was always hopeless to buy a house in a big city. So I moved... I sense the OP wants a bit of "security" or certainty in the path to glory, and everlasting bliss. There isn't any in aviation, and not really in anything else either. Attitude. I wish I knew that in my 20's...
I'm a mom of 3. If you don't prepare and plan, they will EAT you ALIVE.
