Has anybody given up?

[YYZSaabGuy]

Why don't you stay out of it instead of posting -- twice?

My experience is nothing like this post.

It's an insult to anyone who's dealt with serious, life changing trauma.

Shut up YYZ.

I took my post down to edit it. It's back up. If you read it, you might actually learn something.
And regardless: munch me, you pompous little twat.

Another Asshole for mocking the topic of mental health. Loser.

We'd better not meet. You're the kind who makes fun of the trauma people experience.

A disgusting individual and disgrace to your profession.

Huh? You're the one who was mocking the OP for what you felt were his misguided priorities, not me. Suggesting he donate to a food bank or focus on charities - seriously? That's your advice?

And don't worry about meeting: it's unlikely we ever would. I tend to avoid hanging out with dickheads.

[photofly]

Also, like to be more prepared than not. Like bringing a winter kit...may not need it...but I want everything in it.

You should see my winter auto kit. It has everything right down to a plumbing torch to work stuck lug nuts loose.

Pah. That’s nothing. My airplane’s survival kit includes a hot tub and an espresso bar.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Also, like to be more prepared than not. Like bringing a winter kit...may not need it...but I want everything in it.

You should see my winter auto kit. It has everything right down to a plumbing torch to work stuck lug nuts loose.

Pah. That’s nothing. My airplane’s survival kit includes a hot tub and an espresso bar.

It also has you, so I can understand why a few extra luxuries would be necessary

[digits_]

How about thinking of folks who have problems much bigger than yours.

A meaningless statement. You can say that to literally *every* despressed person in the world, except maybe one. People could even have told you that during your troubled times.

Doesn't mean it would help them, or fix their issues, as I'm sure you're aware.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

How about thinking of folks who have problems much bigger than yours.

A meaningless statement. You can say that to literally *every* despressed person in the world, except maybe one. People could even have told you that during your troubled times.

Doesn't mean it would help them, or fix their issues, as I'm sure you're aware.

Agreed. This is, literally, belittling somebody's problems. It helps no one.

[rookiepilot]

How about thinking of folks who have problems much bigger than yours.

A meaningless statement. You can say that to literally *every* despressed person in the world, except maybe one. People could even have told you that during your troubled times.

Doesn't mean it would help them, or fix their issues, as I'm sure you're aware.

I wrote my post on mental health, thinking of the difficulties many must be having, job losses, family stress, after a year of Covid. I know it's been a horrible year for so many people.

I wrote it, After having a mechanical failure that almost killed me, then losing a child, all in 2 years.

And still the topic of mental health was so mocked in responses I took down the thread. I regret even making the post. This place isn't worthy of it. It was wrecked for the people who did find value in it. It's too bad.

I don't see this as comparable, as it's been made out to be but if it is that way to the OP, I sincerely apologize.

The OP or others in this position, perhaps should evaluate what he / she really wants to do in life, where your giftings and abilities lie.

If unsure, remove the pressure and take a break doing something else until clarity returns.

[photofly]

Don't be silly dear, nobody is ever "done" in this place. It's like the Hotel California.

You should see my winter auto kit. It has everything right down to a plumbing torch to work stuck lug nuts loose.

Pah. That’s nothing. My airplane’s survival kit includes a hot tub and an espresso bar.

It also has you, so I can understand why a few extra luxuries would be necessary

I'm with whoever said that camping is where there's no swim-up bar.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Don't be silly dear, nobody is ever "done" in this place. It's like the Hotel California.

Pah. That’s nothing. My airplane’s survival kit includes a hot tub and an espresso bar.

It also has you, so I can understand why a few extra luxuries would be necessary

I'm with whoever said that camping is where there's no swim-up bar.

You should see my glamping kit. It contains an inflatable swim-up bar.

[youhavecontrol]

I totally understand people that think flying might not be worth it and I recognize the legitimate mental health strain that comes from chasing the "dream." I don't think they're entitled, but rather that they are carefully weighing the costs and the gains. It took me nearly 8 years to get up to my first job as a flight instructor... then a few more years as an instructor before I was a good candidate to work elsewhere as an FO. I will NEVER look down on someone who has taken years to finish a PPL. If they're going through a dark time, looking at how much they've spent and comparing it to where they could be if they chose another route can often lead to some depressing realizations. I've been there... where the money runs out, yet again, and you have to go back to slogging through mud. It can totally take a toll on your mental health, especially when you compare where you are at to some of your classmates who had almost zero financial struggle, whizzed through training with no work interruptions, and then land a job before you even finish raising enough for your night rating. If you ever have to ask why it took so long for someone's training to be completed, you might get a surprising answer that has little to do with not having the right attitude.

Not everybody has access to loans or financial assistance, which makes it insanely hard. Government student loans and grants for flight training are a complete joke in some provinces. Cadets was not in my area, nor was the free training program they have in Ontario. I got $15000 or so for my $60000 tuition, and it arrived nearly 6 months late. Where could I get the rest? The banks needed a co-signer before they'd loan me anything. I had to work years in construction to make up the rest. Then, when I had my first instructing job I worked like crazy, but barely made enough to live on, let alone make any dent in my tuition debts. ...all while turning down a high-paying job as an equipment operator with FREE training because the construction company liked me. 10 years since I started my first training flight and I still make less money than I did in my first year out of high school in construction when I was 19.

Don't get me wrong, I don't regret the path I've chosen and I still absolutely love flying, but I totally understand people who think it might not be worth it. Some people have to jump through way more hoops than others and when you've sacrificed so much and it still gets hard, it can be very discouraging and can even lead to depression.

[Ash Ketchum]

Aviation has brought me great joy in my 20s but has also nearly bankrupted me. It truly was a dream job and I would never deter someone from trying. Now that I am furloughed from my airline and have a family and mortgage to pay for I am back in engineering. To be honest I am not sure if I will be able to take the pay cut to fly commercially again but I hope to fly for fun in the future.

[Squaretail]

Before giving up flight training, especially if you are reasonably invested in it, it’s worth trying another instructor or school and seeing if that changes your mind. I have always been surprised how many people have stuck through some pretty much horror stories of flight training.

If you do quit training, please get all your records together, log book especially, and keep them in a safe place. You may never go back, but if you do, and there is substantial investment tied up in those logs, you will be really glad you did. The experience never becomes invalidated. In the past I have seen students finish after 20+ year intermissions.

There is also no shame in quitting. Lots of people fall out of love with it, or some other factor gets them to quit. I would say that only a third of people who start a license actually finish. Most will quit before their first solo, many also after it, and surprisingly some just before their completion. A stupid amount over the years haven’t finished their written test and it was enough to walk away.

If you do quit though, just own the decision. Don’t quit because the internet told you to, some mean instructor, someone told you you were too old/young/stupid/slow/poor/ or whatever. Quit because you didn’t want to continue for whatever reason, but YOU decided that. Chances are, whatever perceived hurdles you felt you had, someone out there has had it worse and prevailed. That’s just the way of the world, for better or worse.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Before giving up flight training, especially if you are reasonably invested in it, it’s worth trying another instructor or school and seeing if that changes your mind. I have always been surprised how many people have stuck through some pretty much horror stories of flight training.

If you do quit training, please get all your records together, log book especially, and keep them in a safe place. You may never go back, but if you do, and there is substantial investment tied up in those logs, you will be really glad you did. The experience never becomes invalidated. In the past I have seen students finish after 20+ year intermissions.

There is also no shame in quitting. Lots of people fall out of love with it, or some other factor gets them to quit. I would say that only a third of people who start a license actually finish. Most will quit before their first solo, many also after it, and surprisingly some just before their completion. A stupid amount over the years haven’t finished their written test and it was enough to walk away.

If you do quit though, just own the decision. Don’t quit because the internet told you to, some mean instructor, someone told you you were too old/young/stupid/slow/poor/ or whatever. Quit because you didn’t want to continue for whatever reason, but YOU decided that. Chances are, whatever perceived hurdles you felt you had, someone out there has had it worse and prevailed. That’s just the way of the world, for better or worse.

+1

[B727JA01]

Being low hours myself, I can relate to how you feel newlygrounded. Even at the risk of sounding a bit cliché, all I can say is that you should follow your heart/gut feeling.

But I still want to share my experience, hoping it could help:

I had the chance to "accidentally" fly in the right seat with some experienced guys. I had been talking to them since I joined my school and at some point they offered to take me with them, as they were mostly flying "boring" solos in their late CPL stage. I obviously trusted them and I happened to be struggling with my own training, so I jumped on the occasion without much aforethought. Of course, the school was also comfortable with it.

I have to say that it was an extremely eye-opening experience for myself, probably because I was much more relaxed and had much more fun than with my instructor. I would say it changed my perspective on many issues related to the learning experience. I remember thinking at the time "this is how it's supposed to feel like", and that helped me push through.

If you have never flown with someone else, I highly recommend doing so. It may not convince you to keep flying, but I promise you that the experience, in and of itself, is way worth it! And apart from your time, it costs nothing.

[Squaretail]

I had the chance to "accidentally" fly in the left seat with some experienced guys. I had been talking to them since I joined my school and at some point they offered to take me with them, as they were mostly flying "boring" solos in their late CPL stage. I obviously trusted them and I happened to be struggling with my own training, so I jumped on the occasion without much aforethought. Of course, the school was also comfortable with it.

Some points to think about here. First the “experienced guys” are students themselves. I also don’t remember being bored doing any of my CPL solo work, I would dare say that maybe they should have taken the opportunity to challenge themselves and broaden their experience a bit. Filling a logbook with entries isn’t the point of a CPL.

I was much more relaxed and had much more fun than with my instructor.

One should remember that your time with your instructor isn’t supposed to be “fun” at least not in the normal sense. It’s work. I will say that for students it’s tough to figure out whether you are getting what you need from your instructor, and most often they measure it by how good it made them feel and how much fun they had. The simplest way to grade whether your in air instruction is productive can be answered by two questions:

1) At the end of a lesson is it clear what your next objective is, and if improvement is needed, what do you need to do to improve, and...

2) How much time during the lesson did you (the student) control the airplane?

If you are feeling a lack of progress, and unhappy with your training, and the answer to 1) is you don’t know and/or 2) is less than 75%, then it’s your instructor and possibly the school that is the source of your dissatisfaction.

And apart from your time, it costs nothing.

No. The standard rate is at least a pie.

[Vsquared]

Do whatever you genuinely want to do.
I found flying to be an absolute blast during training and wouldn't want to be anywhere else but flying around in a trainer.
If you don't enjoy it now, I might suggest diving deeper into that and finding out why it is that you aren't enjoying it. The fun of flying definitely wears off further when you have personal problems going on, the weather sucks, the aircraft is having issues, and you're working with someone you can't stand to be around... lol.
In my situation the money is relative to the hours. If I were in my old career I'd make 2x more but also be working at least 3x more hours.
Anyway, best of luck. Hope you find your calling whatever it may be.

[newlygrounded]

Thanks to everyone for sharing their experiences, it's been a rough year and I hope we make it through to a better place in come 2021

[Tuza]

Also, like to be more prepared than not. Like bringing a winter kit...may not need it...but I want everything in it.

You should see my winter auto kit. It has everything right down to a plumbing torch to work stuck lug nuts loose.

Pah. That’s nothing. My airplane’s survival kit includes a hot tub and an espresso bar.

What kind of espresso?

[Tuza]

Deleted

[Tuza]

Deleted

[pelmet]

I have an extremely hard time mustering sympathy for this entitlement bullsh--t over "not enjoying flying anymore" -- in the context of the horrible year this has been for countless people I know.

To the OP: How about quitting flying and giving some money to charity?

Start with the food banks that are in dire need. Shelters. The list is endless.

How about thinking of folks who have problems much bigger than yours.

The selfishness out there blows my mind.

It has to be said: for someone who has posted regularly and extensively on here about your own personal and professional problems and the impact they've had on you, you're showing an astonishing lack of empathy for the OP who has done pretty much the same thing. People manage stress and life issues in different ways, and with varying levels of success. What appears like a trivial problem to you may well be the straw that breaks the camel's back for somebody else, and conversely, issues that you find challenging may be absolutely no problem for the OP to manage.

Might be a good idea to cut back on the tone-deaf responses and display a bit of humility

I am hoping that you and all of us may have the pleasure of being free of these type of responses for a while, ideally forever. There really is a huge advantage of a career where you enjoy the work, or at least part of the work even if it pays less. I can't imagine spending a career at something I don't like.

I think it might be best to search for a recession-proof career as aviation has got to be the most cyclical of them all. And it is not even that great. Long periods away from home and family...sometimes in weird places, missing holidays, fatigue, marginal food, and much of it can be quite boring. I remember flying with a guy who could have been an engineer but chose flying instead for the money. I asked what he was going to do on the layover and told him about a cool aviation museum. He had no interest and pretty much told me how he hated the job as it was so boring. Don't blame him actually. It probably had little challenge for his mind.

Anyways, lets enjoy the holidays and be friendly to each other instead of all this negativity. There seem to be a lot more decoration lights around this year and it can be quite enjoyable looking at them. I plan to enjoy the Christmas in different ways than usual but am feeling good about it, especially if the nasty responses are gone, hopefully forever. Maybe the week after will be a good time to think through and make the tough choices in life.

Merry Christmas.

NOTE: I have initiated action to have our insulting poster removed, at least for now, hopefully forever after destroying threads, insulting multiple persons including calling people pedophiles and revealing their names, all the while claiming to be the victim. I remind people of this initial post shown below, in the discussion about thread decorum which is a sticky in this forum and written below. That should be a significant step in all of us having a very merry Christmas. It certainly is for me.

Recently (actually forever) there have been instances where severe threadjacking has occurred on this forum. Not only has the topic been completely derailed, but the personal attack quotient has gone through the roof. The end result is that discussion of the original topic gets lost, readers and posters alike get turned off and leave, and the overall value of this site is dramatically diminished.

The question is - do we as a group of participants want this to continue?

I feel it should be easy enough for anyone who does not feel a particular thread is important to just not post in it. There is no need to try and convince people that the thread has no value. The value will be determined by the amount of participation.

Even if someone feels that a given topic is cheesy, try and refrain from personal attacks. There is no value added by insinuating that an anonymous poster has certain characteristics or level of experience. Instead, stick to discussing the points that were made and if you feel they are silly/wrong, post what you think is correct. Again, if it's really not important then start a thread about what you feel is important and see which one gets the most action. That will indicate which topic is important to this forum's membership.

I'm not sure why some people seem to feel that they are (or perhaps definitely should be) the final arbiter of what is important and what is worthy of discussion. Regardless of anyone's personal experience, accomplishments, education or safety record none of those attributes gives them the right to determine for others what topics or situations are worthy of discussion.

Internet forums are intended to give a large group of unconnected individuals an opportunity to discuss a wide variety of topics and issues. When they devolve to a small number of active and opinionated posters that feel the need to comment and take control of a large percentage of the threads, the value of the forum degrades significantly.

Let's all try to reverse the trend here on AvCanada and grow the value of the site as a place where any and all topics can be reasonably initiated and discussed and value will be evident based on the entire community's involvement or lack there of.

viewtopic.php?f=118&t=141635&start=40

I might add the same to the question in this link. What has been learned. I think we have all learned that this is not the place for someone to come when someone should be getting much needed assistance. It can lead to plenty of other people becoming frustrated and leaving or even given a so-called 'holiday' through no fault of their own(as happened to me). Having your own problems is no excuse to cause other people unnecessary problems.

Enjoy the holidays.

[Beefitarian]

I went to wing night and ordered WAY too many wings.

After a few hours, had to give up.

I’m disappointed in you. That story usually ends on how they refused to continue service and escorted you out.

Yeah, getting old is kind of a bummer.

[alkaseltzer]

A few years ago I started with a goal of working for a big airline in a few years, I was in my mid 20's and didn't have to money to commit to flying so I just studied theory and saved up for the flying. 4 years later I've been flying as much as I can but due to weather and how busy schools have been I'm multiple years into getting a PPL and there is still no end in sight! A lot of drama at the school has really taken the wind out of my sails as well.

Even in the best of times a year ago the industry entails 5 or 6 years of poverty wages living somewhere far away (so all your income goes to rent) before you get get into one of our two major carriers. If you don't own a place you're SOL and unlikely to ever be able to afford ot buy one.

Even once your in the pay, and job security is pretty terrible for the first few years. It looks like things are actually going to be even worse after the recovery due to weak bargaining.

I'm not sure if anyone else will disagree but I feel if you're in your 20's or 30's this career will take a giant bite out of you, and washing out with leave you with a lot of regret.

1. Plan. Pumping gas at the FBO won't help you save enough money for flight lessons; but a McDonald's manager position would put you way further (to illustrate)

2. If you don't come from a rich family/financial backing, still get involved. Majority of the "rich" pilots don't make it "that" far ahead, they usually have piss poor pilot decision making. I'm talking about young to older people who grew up with the gold spoon.

3. It's NEVER too late. I've taken breaks. It happens. Life happens. It's okay.

4. Don't fall for any promises. There are those that will treat this like a "casting couch". Those type of employers, avoid. Treat yourself like a business, and you are the CEO and shareholder.

5. Flight schools are not your friend. They don't give a shit about your progress. They want billables. Figure out another way (block time for example), or find a good school. Rates aren't everything, the character of the people running the show are. You won't get that in any major flight school in a metropolitan area; you need to go into the boonies.

[rookiepilot]

Newly Grounded,

I apologize for my previous insensitive response to your dilemma.

Career decisions are extremely difficult and no more so than these current days of great uncertainty in the world. It is not easy and if you are uncertain of your path, such decisions should not be rushed. Try to remove the pressure, self imposed or otherwise, until your vision is clear.

I don't think anyone can make the decision for you, on whether any ambitious career path like professional flying is worth the sacrifices, obstacles, and possible long wait to be compensated and enjoy a positive lifestyle. It so much depends on what you want most out of your professional life, but other factors as well.

If I have a check in my spirit about a major decision, that is a yellow flag to me, to evaluate and count the cost carefully before proceeding.

As I posted on the other thread, the most ideal career, is doing something for a living, you love so much you'd do it for free, if you could.

I sincerely wish you the best in your search.

[newlygrounded]

Newly Grounded,

I apologize for my previous insensitive response to your dilemma.

Career decisions are extremely difficult and no more so than these current days of great uncertainty in the world. It is not easy and if you are uncertain of your path, such decisions should not be rushed. Try to remove the pressure, self imposed or otherwise, until your vision is clear.

I don't think anyone can make the decision for you, on whether any ambitious career path like professional flying is worth the sacrifices, obstacles, and possible long wait to be compensated and enjoy a positive lifestyle. Itout of e.

Thank you Rookie, I read most of what you wrote earlier and I'm sorry for your loss :/

[rookiepilot]

Newly Grounded,

I apologize for my previous insensitive response to your dilemma.

Career decisions are extremely difficult and no more so than these current days of great uncertainty in the world. It is not easy and if you are uncertain of your path, such decisions should not be rushed. Try to remove the pressure, self imposed or otherwise, until your vision is clear.

I don't think anyone can make the decision for you, on whether any ambitious career path like professional flying is worth the sacrifices, obstacles, and possible long wait to be compensated and enjoy a positive lifestyle. Itout of e.

Thank you Rookie, I read most of what you wrote earlier and I'm sorry for your loss :/

Thank you for that.

I did not learn to fly until later in life. I never seriously considered a professional pilot career, I am content with the personal and volunteer flying I've done.

I like to figure stuff out, untangle economic issues, that led me into my career I'm in now.

Everyone is very different.