Accomodating ATC

[PilotDAR]

Many times, I have thought to myself that ATC was especially accommodating, and again today. While returning to Ottawa, I was on terminal. I heard another aircraft (a C 206, I think), ask for a practice hold. The controller came right back with: "Sure! Do you want it easy, or do you want it hard?" The 206 pilot chuckled and said: "Oh, easy!".

She was certainly accommodating to me too, though I was just joining base for landing, that was easy...

[goingnowherefast]

I've had the opposite. ATC seems to be particularly keen to deny requests recently. Overworked after staff cuts, I don't know. It's frustrating when seemly benign requests get denied at increasing frequency.

[goingnowherefast]

I've had the opposite. ATC seems to be particularly keen to deny requests recently. Overworked after staff cuts, I don't know. It's frustrating when seemly benign requests get denied at increasing frequency.

[Squaretail]

I would say 95% of the time, that is exactly the case. Thanks to all the controllers putting in the extra effort to help a guy out, even though you can’t see, you even get the impression that the service is even with a smile. Occasionally it’s not that way though. Maybe it’s just me, but you can tell in their voice when someone is going to be disagreeable. It’s usually when there is a shift change. Maybe the previous guy filled the chair with farts or something? Either way, suddenly your convenient “cleared direct” becomes a 5 waypoint routing, or a vector that is completely counter to where you want to go. I do know there is one controller who, and quote, “shouldn’t have to put up with this VFR bullshit!” But fortunately he is the extreme outlier.

[ATC pilot guy]

The majority of times ATC will accommodate reasonable requests, however we are in different times now. Most units are on modified schedules with longer hours due to Covid. Many units are severely understaffed leading to long periods of single stand operations. When you work alone with no back up you tend to keep traffic complexity to a minimum and are more likely to deny requests. Other units are considered overstaffed right now with the severe decline in traffic numbers. Those units are at risk of layoffs which can cause a lot of stress and may lead to a bit of unwillingness to add to workload.

[172DDriver]

Many times, I have thought to myself that ATC was especially accommodating, and again today. While returning to Ottawa, I was on terminal. I heard another aircraft (a C 206, I think), ask for a practice hold. The controller came right back with: "Sure! Do you want it easy, or do you want it hard?" The 206 pilot chuckled and said: "Oh, easy!".

She was certainly accommodating to me too, though I was just joining base for landing, that was easy...

The last time I flew into YOW terminal got pissed at me for a mode C failure. I guess they have their reasoning.
Also been denied service there last year in YOW terminal. Oh well, they were nice ish about it.

[ahramin]

Well YVR TML has been good right through COVID. Even at their worst this year the service has been better than 2019 and for most of the time service has been completely professional.

[Big Pistons Forever]

About 6 weeks ago I was denied entry into Class C for a flight from CYYJ to CBS8 due to "staffing shortages". I guess even with traffic down 75% there is still room to blow off VFR traffic......

That being said when the guys do a good job I give them an attaboy and when I get shyte service I say nothing on the radio but phone the ACC supervisor and explain why I felt ATC failed me. I supposed it is also inevitable that every ACC has "that guy". Anyone who has flown around Victoria Terminal airspace probably knows who I am talking about.

[rookiepilot]

I do know there is one controller who, and quote, “shouldn’t have to put up with this VFR bullshit!” But fortunately he is the extreme outlier.

On the radio -- actually said this?

Half -- probably much more -- of small businesses are wiped out these days.

Must be nice to have a "protected" job to say whatever you wish.

No unions for small businesses though.

[digits_]

About 6 weeks ago I was denied entry into Class C for a flight from CYYJ to CBS8 due to "staffing shortages". I guess even with traffic down 75% there is still room to blow off VFR traffic......

The funniest -but not "ha ha"-funny- encounter I've had with ATC was last year, right after basically all airline flights were shut down. ATC was still fully staffed, but there were barely any flights anywhere, let alone at the medium sized international airport where I was planning on fying.

I file my flight plan, get the plane ready, when company dispatch called me because ATC was looking for me, urgently!

Oh my... just as I was about to call the number, my phone rings again, and an upset ATC supervisor answers the phone, asking my why I didn't book a training slot. Normally I would have to walk inside the hangar for this conversation, as there are usually airplanes outside, taxiing and flying. This time I could have the whole conversation outside. I was reminded that I need a training slot for any IFR training going on! This is important to plan for all the traffic.

When I told the gentleman that the IFR training portion of the flight would not be happening in his airspace, he calmed down and he confirmed I did not need a training slot.

I got airborne about half an hour later, and did not encounter a single airplane during that time. When I returned to the airport 2 hours later, one medevac plane landed ahead of me. 2 arrivals in over an hour. I could completely understand why the supervisor was worried about the lack of a training slot...

[ahramin]

About 6 weeks ago I was denied entry into Class C for a flight from CYYJ to CBS8 due to "staffing shortages". I guess even with traffic down 75% there is still room to blow off VFR traffic......

It's quite a strange situation. They went from record high traffic numbers and big staffing shortages to record low traffic numbers and even bigger staffing shortage. As I understand it the problem is:

1. NavCanada is trying to save money since their revenue has dropped dramatically.

2. They are also trying to prevent an ATC Zero event by keeping working staff to a minimum.

So those two factors mean that even though the controllers are available, they aren't being called into work. Before Covid-19 YVR and YYJ terminal were in perpetual overtime mode due to unfilled staffing positions so the ability to serve a normal level of traffic required huge overtime budgets. That money is no longer there. For once though the IFR traffic is being affected more than VFR. I can't remember the exact number but arrival rates into YVR are under 30 an hour. Frequent IFR flow control going there despite very low demand.

NavCanada was designed from the get go to be a mediocre service at a middle of the road price. Now that the price has collapsed, the service has had to be reduced accordingly, there's no choice. Unfortunately it probably means that when demand picks up and their revenue stream comes back, they will be unable to service it properly since they'll be in even worse shape than before the pandemic. Airlines will do whatever it takes to ramp back up to whatever service level the travelling public wants - including flying around empty aircraft to get pilots current again - but NavCanada does not have the financial or organizational means to rapidly expand service.

[youhavecontrol]

There's so many amazing controllers across Canada, and I've really enjoyed working for years with some of them. Some of my favourites experiences have been in Edmonton, Sydney, Yarmouth, Halifax, Winnipeg, Fredericton, to name a few.

The only one that wasn't great was this one particular FSS operator in Saint John, who was nick-named "deep sigh" because he would always sign on the radio after replying to your initial call, like you were interrupting a book he was reading every time you called his station. He was so short with the students, that many of them were very intimidated by him and he would bark at even the slightest mistake the students made.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Since we're on the subject, let me give a shout out to the controllers at YTZ and YOO.

I'm training regularly out of YTZ, and the controllers there recognize the school and student and instructors. They even seem to recognize when I'm flying solo and perhaps a bit beyond what I've been trained for to date - especially when they need to throw me a curveball. They are patient, accommodating, professional, and friendly.

As for YOO, I cannot speak highly enough of them. I have landed there when I would swear, YOO was the busiest airport in the country at that moment. They're short, brief, and to the point, but their professionalism has never faltered. A few times it's been a total gong show there, and they manage it with grace and decorum.

In both cases, these ATC controllers have aptly demonstrated to me, as a student pilot, that I can trust ATC without question (broadly speaking). They have taught me, without teaching me, that although I may be solo, I am not alone. Having them there with me on my flights has been of immeasurable benefit to me.

So - my hat goes off to the controllers at YTZ and YOO. You folks are great.

[Squaretail]

I do know there is one controller who, and quote, “shouldn’t have to put up with this VFR bullshit!” But fortunately he is the extreme outlier.

On the radio -- actually said this?

Yes. That happened.

Edit: on this topic, does anyone else remember the lady who worked YBW tower who would come boiling out of there to yell at the students? Hilarious when it’s not you it’s happening to.

[16SidedOffice]

I can't remember the exact number but arrival rates into YVR are under 30 an hour.

I can't remember the last time I saw close to 30 arrivals an hour at YVR. Hopefully, those days will return in the not too distant future.

[rookiepilot]

Places like YOW Tml should listen to NYC approach on ATC Live....."too busy" is obviously in the eye of the beholder.

[ahramin]

YOW TML is one person with a huge amount of airspace and a set of rules laid down by NavCanada. NYC approach is fully staffed with two people at each position and FAA procedures designed to get everyone moved efficiently. Listening on ATC live isn't going to change any of that.

[rookiepilot]

YOW TML is one person with a huge amount of airspace and a set of rules laid down by NavCanada. NYC approach is fully staffed with two people at each position and FAA procedures designed to get everyone moved efficiently. Listening on ATC live isn't going to change any of that.

I've also found NY controllers a lot more friendly than YOW TML, even with non - stop radio chatter.

Shoot me. Unnecessary rudeness turns me off from any service position, from a bakery counter on up.

It's really not necessary.

Edit. Toronto is great, always has been.....

[anofly]

Toronto, tml and ctr are great and always are, YTZ YYZ are great.
Lots of us from "not around ottawa" fail to call in to get a vfr code for terminal. They will give you one half the time.
Now that they plan to lay a bunch of controllers across the country off, I do not blame them one bit for not going and making "extras" work.
That said, why would we allow these jobs to collapse, cause on the other side of this is understaffing. Surely they can give them the 75% wage subsidy to get them through?
There should be no overtime(or almost none) ,before there are layoffs...
Toronto would have shutdown the last 3 or 4 years without folks working lots of overtime... at least thats what I heard from them...

[Mayor_McCheese]

About 6 weeks ago I was denied entry into Class C for a flight from CYYJ to CBS8 due to "staffing shortages". I guess even with traffic down 75% there is still room to blow off VFR traffic......

It's quite a strange situation. They went from record high traffic numbers and big staffing shortages to record low traffic numbers and even bigger staffing shortage. As I understand it the problem is:

1. NavCanada is trying to save money since their revenue has dropped dramatically.

2. They are also trying to prevent an ATC Zero event by keeping working staff to a minimum.

So those two factors mean that even though the controllers are available, they aren't being called into work. Before Covid-19 YVR and YYJ terminal were in perpetual overtime mode due to unfilled staffing positions so the ability to serve a normal level of traffic required huge overtime budgets. That money is no longer there. For once though the IFR traffic is being affected more than VFR. I can't remember the exact number but arrival rates into YVR are under 30 an hour. Frequent IFR flow control going there despite very low demand.

NavCanada was designed from the get go to be a mediocre service at a middle of the road price. Now that the price has collapsed, the service has had to be reduced accordingly, there's no choice. Unfortunately it probably means that when demand picks up and their revenue stream comes back, they will be unable to service it properly since they'll be in even worse shape than before the pandemic. Airlines will do whatever it takes to ramp back up to whatever service level the travelling public wants - including flying around empty aircraft to get pilots current again - but NavCanada does not have the financial or organizational means to rapidly expand service.

Can you explain what an "ATC zero event" is??

[ahramin]

Can you explain what an "ATC zero event" is??

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp ... CAk&uact=5

[kevenv]

Can you explain what an "ATC zero event" is??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATC_Zero

The US has had it happen a few times when they had to clear out a facility because of Covid-19, deep clean and get new people into work.