Landing fee at CYOS

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rookiepilot
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:08 am The town doesn't fund the hospital, that's the province. You should know that, Mr I've-run-everything-under-the-sun. Didn't your successful stint as a hospital chief executive teach you anything?

>Maybe the town is broke.
Maybe it isn't. Maybe, if it is, the correct response is to elect a new council and sack the city manager. If it is, why does everyone else's incompetence fall on the pilot community to fix?
Ahh, I see. Sarcasm.

You come off as some kind of know it all, Aerodynamic engineer / test pilot /. self proclaimed expert from your posts, now that we're discussing such things.

Pretty amusing.

Why aren't you working for Boeing, or NASA?

And is there a thread you DON'T have an opinion on this site, whether you know shit or not about it?


Do you wear one of those 4 bar shirts everywhere you go too?

172 flight instructor or 777 captain.

Public can't tell the difference.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
digits_
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:43 am The airport is managed under contract: whoever wins the bid can appoint themselves (or someone else) as airport manager and employ as many or as few staff as they want out of their contract budget, as long as the runway is cleaned and cleared, the terminal staffed and open, and fuel is available.
Who is coming up with the landing fees then: the contract manager or the municipality? If it's the municipality, would this not affect the contracted manager? Could they block it?


Does anyone use the terminal? If not, that's a cost saving right there.
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

Post by photofly »

digits_ wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:16 am Who is coming up with the landing fees then: the contract manager or the municipality? If it's the municipality, would this not affect the contracted manager? Could they block it?
The municipality. The contract is renewed annually, I believe. It's a contract to manage the infrastructure, not to determine fees.
Does anyone use the terminal? If not, that's a cost saving right there.
The flight school is in the terminal basement; The airport manager has a small office, that's where fuel is paid for, and there's a medium sized lounge with a small restaurant kitchen. The toilets are off the lounge. The "pilot lounge" is a tiny room opposite the airport manager's. Typical small airport setup.
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

Post by Squaretail »

photofly wrote: The municipality. The contract is renewed annually, I believe. It's a contract to manage the infrastructure, not to determine fees.
The obvious question is if the municipality is the one seeking additional revenue from the airport, why aren’t they directly maintaining it? The municipality already has equipment, or should, one assumes they plow snow too. If they aren’t doing that, well maybe the whole place is screwed up. A runway is really a tiny fraction of the road mileage that most MDs are responsible for, to have a fully separate means of removing snow is a huge expenditure. Big airports can warrant specialized equipment, little airports can’t, and contracting out for the relatively small area is usually not cost effective. It can be done if trade offs are made in airport service but that is a no go for anywhere that provides medevac capability and IFR accessibility.

How big is this flight school? I assume it’s more than one dude with one plane? If so, an obvious solution presents itself - has the flight school bid on the management contract? Does the school employ full time staff?
The flight school is in the terminal basement; The airport manager has a small office, that's where fuel is paid for, and there's a medium sized lounge with a small restaurant kitchen. The toilets are off the lounge. The "pilot lounge" is a tiny room opposite the airport manager's. Typical small airport setup.
Is fuel full service? Do the school and the manager have separate POS service? Is the flight school the only business on the field?
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

Post by wapitibaby »

People ranting about having to pay 35$ for a landing at an airport ?

Should everything be free for VFR private owners?

You can afford 150$ (I have absolutely no idea how much it is) an hour to go burn gas but ranting about 35$ for your landing fees. LMAO

The whole industry is crashing down, pilots who made 250K a year now at home on the 2K a month emergency fund having to find jobs that will no where allow them to pay the lifestyle they worked hard for to get there.

Controllers getting layed off in the same situation not knowing how the @#$! they'll manage to pay their mortgages in 6 months?

And all these people who worked at the airports now home wondering what the @#$! am i gonna do now?

Pay your fees and stop complaining, enjoy still being able to fly, you still get service from all the controllers around the country but you're paying sweet fuckall for all these services.
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

Post by rookiepilot »

wapitibaby wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:38 am People ranting about having to pay 35$ for a landing at an airport ?

Should everything be free for VFR private owners?

You can afford 150$ (I have absolutely no idea how much it is) an hour to go burn gas but ranting about 35$ for your landing fees. LMAO

The whole industry is crashing down, pilots who made 250K a year now at home on the 2K a month emergency fund having to find jobs that will no where allow them to pay the lifestyle they worked hard for to get there.

Controllers getting layed off in the same situation not knowing how the @#$! they'll manage to pay their mortgages in 6 months?

And all these people who worked at the airports now home wondering what the @#$! am i gonna do now?

Pay your fees and stop complaining, enjoy still being able to fly, you still get service from all the controllers around the country but you're paying sweet fuckall for all these services.
Fact of the matter, this thread would be just as long, and the same, if the landing fee was 5 bucks.

Horrors.

Everyone, wants everything, for free.
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

Post by photofly »

Squaretail wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:31 am How big is this flight school?
Three older 172s, six instructors, mostly part time, I would guess. Owen Sound has not yet become a destination for flight training.
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

Post by photofly »

Squaretail wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:31 am How big is this flight school?
Three older 172s, six instructors, mostly part time, I would guess. Owen Sound has not yet become a destination for flight training.
Should everything be free for VFR private owners?
I don't think landing at the airport at which you paid for a ground lease, paid to build a hangar, and pay property taxes on that hangar, and at which you pay for your fuel, can be called "free", but I think it should be without additional charge. I think per-landing fees in general are a bad idea because they discourage people from flying, and they discourage people from visiting. An annual usage flat fee would make more sense.

I don't see how a $35 dollar landing fee to a town for a 172 landing at a municipal airport helps out of work commercial pilots who are suddenly reduced from the $250k per year lifestyle, nor out-of-work NavCanada air traffic controllers.

Owen sound is not a controlled airport, and NavCanada doesn't offer any services there, so whether NavCanada fees are good or bad value for money doesn't seem relevant. However, it's worth pointing out that at more than a few controlled airports at the moment, the only movements keeping the lights on at all in the control towers are GA and flight training operations, exactly the kind of flights that begin or end somewhere like Owen Sound. So if you really want even those operations to go away, keeping adding to the costs.
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

wapitibaby wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:38 am You can afford 150$ (I have absolutely no idea how much it is) an hour to go burn gas but ranting about 35$ for your landing fees. LMAO
An hour of doing circuits will now be an additional $350, plus or minus.

That's enough to sink most flight schools. Certainly, nobody will be practicing landings there any longer.
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

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photofly wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:55 am
Three older 172s, six instructors, mostly part time, I would guess. Owen Sound has not yet become a destination for flight training.
Either way, it means he has staff to draw upon. If he takes the management contract, he has an extra means to offer the staff some employment - especially for part time instructors, a bit of extra cash to make your trip to the airport worth while is always worth it. But that’s just my view. If the big factors, snow and grass, are taken care of by the MD, everything else can be easily managed by the flight school (or any other business that has a few employees to use) light maintenance, emergency contacting, FOD patrols, parking, billing, fuel sales, etc.

Now in reality the best solution is to find a K.F. To live on your airport, who will do everything for it and has a strong enthusiasm for the task who will grow the airport’s usage, but those are few and far between (and unfortunately there is one less of this year :( ) so that is unlikely. The first real step is to have a working relationship between the interested parties where everyone should be working towards making the airport more viable, and I dare say profitable.


Fact of the matter, this thread would be just as long, and the same, if the landing fee was 5 bucks.
No. The fact of the matter is that landing fees aren’t always the solution to the problems with airport viability. You have to have traffic to warrant them, and a necessity of use for the airport so those who land there don’t have alternatives, or the service provided is superior. The proposal of landing fees is often brought up not to fund the airport - since often they don’t do that well - but to reduce traffic. Often with the interests of eliminating a certain sect of traffic (for example CYYC has made no bones about making light traffic pay through the nose to keep it away) or for small airports, closing them entirely. They horrifically impact small businesses that run on the airport. They reduce fuel sales, which in most little airports also reduces revenue.

Even if a fee is warranted and makes sense for revenue, they still add to the negative impression for customer/pilots. You don’t want to feel dinged for even the smallest use. It’s even worse when you get places with no facility or service looking to charge prices that normally you’d be getting at a full service FBO. The better option is usually to charge for parking, but make sure that you have a facility people want to park at. Customers need to feel they are getting something for what they are paying for. They are not wrong in expecting that for the basic service of a runway, they are already paying tax dollars to fund.

Here is a small business analogy for you. Suppose the town put a toll booth on the road that led to your business. Maybe they could argue that your clientele was so exclusive that they were the ones mostly using that road so thus should fund its upkeep. Now even if the toll they charged was only a penny, well a nickel rounding up, you would lose a lot of business. If you then also found out the town spent $11000 dollars installing the toll booth, and it costs then $2000 per year to administer the system (common price for a such a unit when all install costs are tallied) that they spent your tax dollars on... well you might be less than impressed. Probably less so when you discover all the neighbours of are exempt from the toll, and it’s only your clientele and you that is being charged. I mean it’s just a nickel right?
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

Post by photofly »

Squaretail wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 12:50 pm Either way, it means he has staff to draw upon. If he takes the management contract, he has an extra means to offer the staff some employment - especially for part time instructors, a bit of extra cash to make your trip to the airport worth while is always worth it. But that’s just my view. If the big factors, snow and grass, are taken care of by the MD, everything else can be easily managed by the flight school (or any other business that has a few employees to use) light maintenance, emergency contacting, FOD patrols, parking, billing, fuel sales, etc.
I don't see how that helps. There's no problem with the management of the airport, except that the municipality doesn't want to pay for it. The flight school cannot afford to do for free what the municipality won't pay for.

The structural problem is that the airport is in another county. Business taxes therefore don't go to the municipality, and they have no incentive to make the airport more successful: they wouldn't get any extra revenue from taxation even if it were.
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

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The flight school cannot afford to do for free what the municipality won't pay for.
No, no one said for free, but they can do it for substantially less cost. It would be worth investigating how much the contract currently is, and how much of that is wages or salary. I say that since I used to do that: both CFI and airport manager. Wasn’t hard, you’re at the airport anyways. But one day the airport decided collectively they didn’t like that, and hired a separate airport manager, which then suddenly the budget doubled, then tripled. Was it coincidence that the new management implemented landing fees the same time the airport manager appeared? Unfortunately that’s not a unique scenario at small airports. Maybe that’s not going on here, but it’s worth noting to make small airports viable, it’s not just about increasing revenue.

That said, the structural problem you mention is a tough obstacle to negotiate. How much does the county the airport is in chip into its budget?
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

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Squaretail wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:04 pm How much does the county the airport is in chip into its budget?
Nothing, as far as I know.
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

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What taxes are Toronto area (visiting) pilots directly paying to support the Owen Sound Airport?

I'm curious, seeing taxes, taxpayers, repeatedly referenced.
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

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Can’t speak for anyone else, but I stay in Owen Sound hotels, get my aircraft maintained by the Owen Sound airport AME, take Owen Sound taxis, and shop in Owen Sound shops, and eat in Owen Sound restaurants. Especially the airport restaurant, when it was open. And I get a full tank of gasoline before flying out.

I don’t expect visitors to Toronto to contribute in any way that I don’t, when I visit a city in which I don’t live.

I really regret we lost the battle against landing fees at my home airport, but I’m happy to team up and add my voice to those who are now fighting it at Owen Sound. Call it pilot community spirit. You should try it, some time.
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

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photofly wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:26 pm
I really regret we lost the battle against landing fees at my home airport, but I’m happy to team up and add my voice to those who are now fighting it at Owen Sound. Call it pilot community spirit. You should try it, some time.
Dude, I've completed many, many, volunteer flights, at my own expense and volunteering my time, usually the whole day --- from different northern Ontario airports, bringing sick patients right to your home airport for appointments and treatment in Toronto.

When you've done the same, you can lecture me about community spirit.
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

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Now that I appreciate just how much community spirit you have, I say again, I’m disappointed you can’t show some here.
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

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rookiepilot wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:52 pm What taxes are Toronto area (visiting) pilots directly paying to support the Owen Sound Airport?

I'm curious, seeing taxes, taxpayers, repeatedly referenced.
Well, since you brought it up, both the federal and provincial governments (at least I know it’s the case in here) have funds that can be applied for exactly for these purposes. I think the higher tiers of government count on that most airport management groups aren’t going to apply. Something maybe the folks at Owen Sound should look into. The twits at my home field knew about this and apparently at one of the last meetings simply failed to put the application in this year when seeking funding to improve some parking areas on the field.

That you bring up Toronto makes for a long convoluted explanation. After all, most of the large airports in Canada have the complex scheme to be run that involves renting land from the federal government, but then that government in turn funds them, and they operate in a grey area of almost being a crown corporation, but not quite, You would be surprised what some of these corporations manage. As I recall the Calgary Airport Authority besides CYYC and CYBW, also manages several other large airports. I digress. The simple answer to your question is that stuff that is publicly funded is for all of the public. For better or worse depending on how you feel about it. For example there was a fight a little while back about how Calgarians felt that it’s surrounding communities should contribute more directly to funding its transit construction. But that fails to acknowledge the benefit Calgary businesses derive from a steady outside influx of customers. After all, these people buy meals, shop and everything else.

Owen Sounders should want Torontonians coming and using their airport, the key to reaping a benefit from that is charging parking, and having other services they will use. Every airport should want as much traffic as it can bear.

Small business example. If you have a road that your tax dollars are funding leading to your business, do you separate the tax cost you pay for that road out as a separate part of their billing? Do you charge people more if they come from out of town? If you did these things people wouldn’t frequent your business. No matter how justified you felt about doing this. Some way, some how, you are absorbing that into the cost of doing business.
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

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photofly wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:40 pm Now that I appreciate just how much community spirit you have, I say again, I’m disappointed you can’t show some here.
Ok.
Noted.
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

Post by JasonE »

Guess I'll just fly in NORDO next time for a few touch and go's :)

Sad to lose another airport.
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

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JasonE wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:34 pm Guess I'll just fly in NORDO next time for a few touch and go's :)
That, is a really good point.
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

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Or, just do those touch n' gos at Collingwood or Wiarton. They have no landing fees for single pistons.

Just sayin'
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

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Actually I was thinking more for based pilots: if you land or takeoff there NORDO, and hurry to and from your hangar, it's unlikely that anyone is going to know your aircraft moved. Want fuel? Make sure you get it on a day you don't fly. I'm not advocating dodging a fee, but I suspect most pilots will try to avoid it, one way or another.
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

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That’s one reason why landing fees just aren’t effective as a revenue generator at small airports. Local traffic will figure out quickly how to avoid it and still make use of the facility, and irregular traffic will probably just refuse to pay. After all, is it worth the trouble to send someone to collections who might be two provinces away? Those kinds of folks will not come back. If you are losing out on a several hundred dollar fuel sale just to try to get an extra 15 bucks, it’s sort of the definition of pound foolish, penny wise.

The biggest issue is however that landing fees are expensive to collect and administer in the big scheme of things. A video system or a transmission recording system isn’t cheap to install, and still require someone to spend the time reviewing them and invoicing. In my experience both of which are horrifically prone to error - by the amount of landing fees I have received over the years from places that were never visited by the aircraft. A double negative, you didn’t get the revenue AND you pissed off someone else who might fly into your airport in the future.
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Re: Landing fee at CYOS

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:04 am Actually I was thinking more for based pilots: if you land or takeoff there NORDO, and hurry to and from your hangar, it's unlikely that anyone is going to know your aircraft moved. Want fuel? Make sure you get it on a day you don't fly. I'm not advocating dodging a fee, but I suspect most pilots will try to avoid it, one way or another.
Or you're so pissed off about the fee you'd rather spend 50 dollars hopping over to somewhere else for fuel, even if it's more expensive. They shouldn't underestimate humanity's pettiness :twisted:

Does the hangar land lease include a clause that forces the airport operator to keep the airport operational for XX years?
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